Saw off barrel, modify new Ithaca, or what?

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D.B. Cooper

D.B. Cooper

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I'm looking to get a 20" shotgun for home defense, etc. I know that a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 is the practical choice. That's not what I want, in large part because I want to keep the slam fire function of the vintage Winchester. (And because I love vintage Winchesters.)

What I want is a Model 12 riot or trench gun. Those are difficult to find and priced accordingly. I don't really want to spend $1500 and up on this. Second choice would be a vintage Ithaca 37. Both will slam fire, but both will be spendy.

Here are my options, as I see them: please give me your feedback or a better option that I don't see.

1.) Buy any vintage Winchester Model 12 and cut the barrel at 20" or just forward of the magazine tube at a legal length. This would essentially give me an open, no choke barrel. (Cylinder bore, correct?) Pros: Duck guns are plentiful, and, with the ban on lead shot, cheap. I might even be able to do the gunsmithing myself. Maybe. Cons: I cringe at the thought of cutting up a vintage Winchester.

2.) Buy a new Ithaca 37, which no longer has the slam fire function, and find a gunsmith to do the necessary modification. Pro: I get a new gun. Cons: A new Ithaca is like $800. Is it even possible to modify said gun to said condition? Will a gunsmith even make said modification?

What say you?
 
LoneGoose said:
You can find older Ithacas for $400 or less. Look at Gunbroker and other sites.
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I'm thinking you are referring to fowling pieces at that price point (much like the Winchesters), rather than the "trench gun" type pieces with the short barrels. But yeah, I'm still looking. Buying a gun that was purpose built for the job is always the better choice.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
I'm looking to get a 20" shotgun for home defense, etc. I know that a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 is the practical choice. That's not what I want, in large part because I want to keep the slam fire function of the vintage Winchester. (And because I love vintage Winchesters.)

What I want is a Model 12 riot or trench gun. Those are difficult to find and priced accordingly. I don't really want to spend $1500 and up on this. Second choice would be a vintage Ithaca 37. Both will slam fire, but both will be spendy.

Here are my options, as I see them: please give me your feedback or a better option that I don't see.

1.) Buy any vintage Winchester Model 12 and cut the barrel at 20" or just forward of the magazine tube at a legal length. This would essentially give me an open, no choke barrel. (Cylinder bore, correct?) Pros: Duck guns are plentiful, and, with the ban on lead shot, cheap. I might even be able to do the gunsmithing myself. Maybe. Cons: I cringe at the thought of cutting up a vintage Winchester.

2.) Buy a new Ithaca 37, which no longer has the slam fire function, and find a gunsmith to do the necessary modification. Pro: I get a new gun. Cons: A new Ithaca is like $800. Is it even possible to modify said gun to said condition? Will a gunsmith even make said modification?

What say you?
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Slam fire triggers are good only if you want to shoot your foot off. If you want one I would buy pre-1974 commercial Ithaca Deerslayer. I say commercial because certain Deerslayers were sold to police from mid-60s on with fire interrupter trigger system which will not allow "slam fire". I see no point in buying old Model 12 with long barrel and having it chopped off because old Ithaca with short barrel and iron sights can be had for same money or less.
 
Save the Winchesters & Ithacas. A low cost option & a shotgun with no (or very very little) collector value that will slam fire is the Sears J C Higgins Model 20. Made by High Standard, I imagine - although I am not positive - their Model 200 Flite King should do the same. Prices range from well below $200 to above $400.
 
I recently handled a great condition Ithaca 37 at CABELA'S in Hamburg, Pennsylvania. Price was $400. and they might still have it for sale.

Jack
 
I saw Scott Reitz run an 870 so fast you could barely hear the gap between them. I really find it hard to believe the slam fire would offer any advantage. I'm not against it, get what you want. Just wondering if it becomes too much of a hastle or more money than it's worth. By the way, I have done enough things that have cost more than makes sense.

I will offer another out of left field idea. Get a DP 12. Basically a pump side by side. Two trigger pulls before you run the pump. Holds 14 rounds. Yes, expensive but another possible way maybe to get you to a similar function.
 
In Wild Bunch Action Shooting we use the Model 97 and the Model 12 so I have a little experience shooting both of these vintage Winchester shotguns. I ownedo an Ithaca Model 37 for many years; it was a field gun that I had cut down to about 18 1/2". I can tell you that the Model 12 is the better choice. The magazine holds six rounds where the Ithaca held, I believe, four. Both are classic designs but the lightweight Ithaca had more kick. Also, when the Model 12 runs dry you can single load it through the open ejection port and keep rocking (we do this in match stages that have more than six shotgun targets). Not an option with the Ithaca. Winchester made almost two million Model 12s; if you keep your eyes open you can pick up a good shooter at a decent price.

As for slam firing, I can do it with '97 but for some reason don't feel as confident about staying on target slam firing the Model 12.
 
Crunchy Frog said:
In Wild Bunch Action Shooting we use the Model 97 and the Model 12 so I have a little experience shooting both of these vintage Winchester shotguns. I ownedo an Ithaca Model 37 for many years; it was a field gun that I had cut down to about 18 1/2". I can tell you that the Model 12 is the better choice. The magazine holds six rounds where the Ithaca held, I believe, four. Both are classic designs but the lightweight Ithaca had more kick. Also, when the Model 12 runs dry you can single load it through the open ejection port and keep rocking (we do this in match stages that have more than six shotgun targets). Not an option with the Ithaca. Winchester made almost two million Model 12s; if you keep your eyes open you can pick up a good shooter at a decent price.

As for slam firing, I can do it with '97 but for some reason don't feel as confident about staying on target slam firing the Model 12.
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The Model 12 magazine will hold five 2&3/4" shells while Ithaca 37 Deerslayer will hold four. The only advantage to Winchester is you can attach light to the tube which can not be done to standard Deerslayer, but in all other respects Ithaca will be superior shotgun. A Deerslayer will easily outshoot Model 12 when Foster slugs are used. The serial range you want is from 855,000 (start of interchangeable barrel production) to about 371453500 (1974).
 
So yeah, I KNEW the Winchester was the better gun. (I'm EXTREMELY biased in the matter.) But Riot Model 12's are hard to find and very costly. I've seen few and all were over a grand. I have a difficult time carrying a $1k + gun in the field. (It's why I buy Ruger revolvers over Colt's-love the colts, but could you imagine dropping an Anaconda on a rock?)

As for the slam fire, I don't even shoot my duck gun Model 12 like that. But I like the design and having the option. It isn't a MUST, but I'd hate to buy a gun without it.

Seems like no one in the 1940's, 50's ever thought of needing a shotgun for defense (times were better back then), so Model 12's with 20" barrels are rare compared to the 28, 30, and 32 inch barrels.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
So yeah, I KNEW the Winchester was the better gun. (I'm EXTREMELY biased in the matter.) But Riot Model 12's are hard to find and very costly. I've seen few and all were over a grand. I have a difficult time carrying a $1k + gun in the field. (It's why I buy Ruger revolvers over Colt's-love the colts, but could you imagine dropping an Anaconda on a rock?)

As for the slam fire, I don't even shoot my duck gun Model 12 like that. But I like the design and having the option. It isn't a MUST, but I'd hate to buy a gun without it.

Seems like no one in the 1940's, 50's ever thought of needing a shotgun for defense (times were better back then), so Model 12's with 20" barrels are rare compared to the 28, 30, and 32 inch barrels.
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Yeh man, there is nothing like spending a cool extra grand on Model 12 with short factory CYL marked Winchester barrel.:eek:
 
Here's an option. Buy a used Ithaca 37 and buy a new 18" defense barrel from Ithaca. Or check out a Winchester model 25. Just a fixed barrel model 12 and no one will care if you cut it down, plus they are really cheap. You're going to have to make some tools to fully disassemble it (and to remove any plug from magazine) but if it's for defense you are most likely going to have it sitting more than shooting.
 
I'd just buy an Ithaca with a longer barrel meant for bird hunting, rabbit/squirrels and clays, have a smith bob the barrel to 18.5 to 20" inches and put the bead sight back on ... Done.

That's what I did about 10 years back (mine is 18.5") and it cost me $150 total including the gunsmithing work.
 
The market on shooter grade 12 ga model 12's is dismal right now. You should easily be able to pick one up for the same price as a new Mossberg, probably less if it has a Poly-Choke. Cut the barrel back, and you are good to go. There were millions of them made, no reason to cringe. Just don't go cutting up a black diamond trap grade or 28 ga.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
The short answer is: "I don't." But I'm still going to want the higher level of craftsmanship and materials (forged steel receiver, steel parts, no MIM parts, no plastic, etc.) of the much older guns.
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The new Ithaca Model 37's are made the as the original one's made in 1937.
The difference is the factory uses modern CNC lathe's to make parts now. They are all steel with no stamped or plastic parts.
By the way the receiver is made from a 11 pound block of 4140 chrome moly steel. It go's into the turning center 11 pounds and comes out finished receiver.
 
jaguarxk120 said:
The new Ithaca Model 37's are made the as the original one's made in 1937.
Click to expand...
Not quite. The design was modified in the late-70s to prevent them from being able to be slam fired. New ones can't be modified to do so.
 
There are many model 12's being used in Wild Bunch competition, most have the barrels cut to around 20 inches or so. They are really good for fast shooting whether you slam fire them or not. By the way, a standard model 12 will hold six 2 3/4 inch shells in the magazine. ( The lightweight model 12's only hold five. )

Lafitte
 
Well thanks for all the input, guys. I passed up a Model 12 bird gun for $300 about a week or so back, due to my own indecision on what to do. Oops. Would have made a good gun for a project like this.

Guess I should just keep an open eye and an open mind, and be ready to pounce the next time "any of the above" ideas turn up for sale. Next reasonable condition and price Model 12 or Ithaca I see for sale locally, regardless of barrel and/or choke, I'm going to pounce on it like Oprah on a doughnut.

In fact, I almost wonder if a complete beater with like 50% or less bluing might be a good idea; if I'm cutting up the barrel, any collector value is gone, so perhaps I'll just have it parkerized.

AND ON THAT NOTE...I wonder...if I buy a Winchester, should I spend the money on having the Cody firearms museum do a serial number check, just to make sure I didn't accidentally stumble on something valuable, before I take a sawz-all to the barrel.
 
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