Sling on home defense AR

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Coal Dragger said:
The M16A4 was not bad. This was in late 2003 when we were issued the new rifles, through deployment ending in fall of 2004. Now all the USMC grunts run M4's transitioning to the M4A1 and the HK M27 IAR.

Our A4's were made by FN and replaced Colt M16A2's. The Colts had nicer machining on the upper and lower receivers, and notably better triggers. My best qualification score was with my brand new (like I took my rifle out of the plastic wrapper new) A4 though, probably attributable to a new barrel with a pristine throat and bore.

The Knights Armament quad rail was durable, but heavy and did not free float the barrel. The included Knights Armament rail panels were worthless and stupid. All kitted out with a sling, scout light, PEQ-2, optics, and a loaded magazine it made for a heavy bugger.

I've been tempted to build an A4'ish rifle with a 20" bbl. I would be more interested in a "modernized" A4 though. To begin with I'd ditch the non free floating quad rail and choose something a bit lighter like a Centurion or Geissele rail that have very secure repeatable mounting to an extended length barrel but. Since the .mil looks to be going M-Lok I probably would too.

For a barrel I'd love something cold hammer forged and not in the government profile, maybe a nice tapered medium contour to the gas journal, tapering to around .625" near the muzzle with a flare out for the muzzle device. The goal would be to get stiffness and heat handling ability back towards the chamber where it belongs for better accuracy, while adding little weight to the actual barrel compared to the idiot government profile. I'd even take a full medium contour like offered by Criterion barrels. I'd prefer this to be chrome lined and hammered out of CMV 4150. I would then install a Surefire Warcomp on the muzzle, I have one on my Colt SOCOM II and really like it.

I'd also ditch the ACOG, but may very well stick with Trijicon and stick a VCOG on top or some other 1-6 set up, maybe even a Leupold LCO and D-EVO.

Undecided on a fixed stock or a VLTOR A5 system, probably go A5 since it was developed to do both rifle and carbine at the behest of the USMC and it flat out works.

The only other deviation would be a Geissele SD-C trigger. I love Geissele 2 stage triggers, and like the flat faced triggers so I'd get another one for this build.
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That sounds like such a cool build! A modernized A4 would be so fun to have, and would be better suited for me since where I live (Kansas) there are some loooooooooooong stretches of prairie.
 
badkarmamib said:
Mine always wears its sling. I have 3 kids in the house. If I need a free hand to grab them, I don't want to have to leave my rifle behind. You also never know when you might need your hands free. I know snagging can be an issue, but not so much if you are wearing it.
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If you have kids that might need picking up, you've described a situation where a long gun is a poor home defense choice. It might be a good choice to have in the safe if you foresee leaving the house, but not for use inside.


When I was in the Middle East 15 years ago the Marines had their M16s dangling on parachord. The US sling design is great for shooting at Camp Perry.
 
RX-79G said:
If you have kids that might need picking up, you've described a situation where a long gun is a poor home defense choice. It might be a good choice to have in the safe if you foresee leaving the house, but not for use inside.


When I was in the Middle East 15 years ago the Marines had their M16s dangling on parachord. The US sling design is great for shooting at Camp Perry.
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Really? We're going there now?

Long guns are far more effective than handguns for the purposes of home defense. That is beyond the scope of this thread but is common knowledge.
 
Cooldill said:
Really? We're going there now?

Long guns are far more effective than handguns for the purposes of home defense. That is beyond the scope of this thread but is common knowledge.
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A handgun in your waistband is much more effective than a rifle dangling on a sling. If you want a home defense gun that makes it easier to pick up your kids and still have immediate access to a weapon, that's what pistols are designed to do.
 
RX-79G said:
A handgun in your waistband is much more effective than a rifle dangling on a sling. If you want a home defense gun that makes it easier to pick up your kids and still have immediate access to a weapon, that's what pistols are designed to do.
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Wrong again, partner.

Pistols are meant to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have put down in the first place, or for engaging the target when your long gun goes out of commission for whatever reason. With today's modern 3-point tactical slings, there is absolutely no excuse to not be able to move effectively with a tactical carbine for home defense work. But, a sling is very necessary for this to be able to be successfully accomplished. The carbine just gives us tremendous advantages over an adversary with a handgun.

You won't be seeing any door kickers operating in Iraq or Afghan with M9s as their primary weapons. There is a damn good reason for this. Wake up, smell the coffee, and learn to run a tactical carbine to defend your home. There are innumerable quality resources available for you to learn how to do this. Thank me later.
 
RX-79G said:
If you have kids that might need picking up, you've described a situation where a long gun is a poor home defense choice. It might be a good choice to have in the safe if you foresee leaving the house, but not for use inside.


When I was in the Middle East 15 years ago the Marines had their M16s dangling on parachord. The US sling design is great for shooting at Camp Perry.
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While I'll thank you for your service I will also point out that only 12 years ago I was in the sandbox too, and wasn't running a US GI sling on my rifle. Slings have come a long way, a good 2 point sling like the Vickers sling will keep your carbine butt stock right at your shoulder, with the weapon across your chest muzzle down. Hands not required. You can adjust the sling one handed if you want to just hang it around your neck or switch sides. With the sling on you can immediately transition to a sidearm and still retain your long gun, or go hands on and punch someone's mouth loose, open a door, or whatever you need to do.
 
Cooldill said:
Wrong again, partner.

Pistols are meant to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have put down in the first place, or for engaging the target when your long gun goes out of commission for whatever reason. With today's modern 3-point tactical slings, there is absolutely no excuse to not be able to move effectively with a tactical carbine for home defense work. But, a sling is very necessary for this to be able to be successfully accomplished. The carbine just gives us tremendous advantages over an adversary with a handgun.

You won't be seeing any door kickers operating in Iraq or Afghan with M9s as their primary weapons. There is a damn good reason for this. Wake up, smell the coffee, and learn to run a tactical carbine to defend your home. There are innumerable quality resources available for you to learn how to do this. Thank me later.
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Well, "partner", if you think you can drop the child in one of your arms, turn, grasp a dangling rifle, remove the safey and fire faster than you can with a pistol in an enclosed space - you're fooling yourself. Door kickers aren't carrying children or guarding their rear, so I'm not sure why you think that's appropriate to bring up when discussing carrying several kids in a house.

This is not an effectiveness issue, but a "have a gun" issue. To get a rifle on a tac sling into play when you're carrying your children you need remove the safety that you had to have on because the kids are up against the trigger area, maneuver the barrel around the kid that is now at your waist level and be able turn nearly 180° to point the rifle behind you. A pistol user simply needs to drop the kid, turn 90° while drawing and fire to engage an attacker behind them.

If you have a free arm than this isn't an issue. But if you have a baby and toddler to fetch, or door knobs to deal with you are making things far more difficult to protect your 6 with a rifle.
 
If both of your arms are carrying things that aren't your weapon, pistol or rifle, it's all a moot point as you won't effectively be defending yourself, ****/bust.

Also referencing Cooldils previous post regarding slings, look to how the professionals do it and ape that as best as possible.
 
Golf-21-Bravo said:
If both of your arms are carrying things that aren't your weapon, pistol or rifle, it's all a moot point as you won't effectively be defending yourself, ****/bust.

Also referencing Cooldils previous post regarding slings, look to how the professionals do it and ape that as best as possible.
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If you leave your kids you're not defending your family at all. If you know you might need your hands, it might be worth exploring methods that allow rapid response with one hand in tight quarters.

You seem to be suggesting just giving up because it is all too difficult.

As far as professionals go, they don't defend families by themselves. But a SWAT member might rely on their vest or sidearm since they prepare for CQC in a way that a home owner can't - unless they want to sleep in a ballistic vest and gunbelt.
 
RX-79G said:
If you leave your kids you're not defending your family at all. If you know you might need your hands, it might be worth exploring methods that allow rapid response with one hand in tight quarters.

You seem to be suggesting just giving up because it is all too difficult.

As far as professionals go, they don't defend families by themselves. But a SWAT member might rely on their vest or sidearm since they prepare for CQC in a way that a home owner can't - unless they want to sleep in a ballistic vest and gunbelt.
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No im suggesting to keep a hand free, if you're carrying a weapon and can't readily access it you're already at a huge disadvantage. If you've got dependables that for some reason need you to carry them then try train a way around this.

Im echoing Cooldils somewhat but a rifle on a sling is ideal to negate this as it's readily available on your chest, pistols would have to be drawn/stuffed in your pants if you do need to use both hands at once.

Professionals can carry and do an awful lot of things with slings and long weapons. It's not that I think you're wrong, pistols are obviously extremely useful in tight confines but if it's either/or I'd have to go for the long weapon plus sling.
 
Hmmm. I was assuming home defense as outlined in the OP was suggesting a surprise home invasion, inside one's own home, and likely in a defensive position.

Now that combat or LEO door kickers have been brought up, I'm out of this conversation.
 
Why? Lessons learned by guys who have been very successfully deploying long guns indoors for quite a while are pretty valuable.

For those with dependents they may have to protect, if you're in a situation where you need to get your kids away from the bad guy because he is danger close, I'd suggest you teach your kids to get down on the deck while you start feeding that bad guy lead on the double quick. Concentrate on stopping the threat, if they're that close you don't have time to gather everyone up.
 
Coal Dragger said:
Why? Lessons learned by guys who have been very successfully deploying long guns indoors for quite a while are pretty valuable.
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Arrrgh. Dragging me back in. :)

Well, door kickers are on the offensive and the doors go away from them when kicked. Myself on the other hand, being in the house, the doors kick toward me. Okay, joking a bit.

On the non-joking side of it, soldiers or LEO that are kicking in doors are not likely to give up if entering a home to take out the occupants. Criminals that are breaking in to grab some easy "loot" are likely to flee once shots are coming their way from the occupants. The goals are different between the soldier/LEO and the common criminal.

As a regular working class homeowner, I'm not worried about protecting a vault or preventing a kidnapping. Criminals that would invade my home wouldn't likely have those two things in mind coming into my home.

With that being said, using a long gun in my home assumes I'm in a position to get to a long gun. Which means it's probably night time, the doors are locked and braced, and my family is in the four bedrooms which are all upstairs. If I hear the doors banging against the braces, I could get a long gun and take a defensive position at/near the top of the stairs and start blasting whoever attempts to climb those stairs. As I would expect common criminal invaders, I figure once they take fire from me they would get the hell out of my home whether they fire back at me or not.

In this situation I'm not going to sling up, gather the family, and run to the escape pods (vehicles). I'm going to stay home and home is where all the stuff is where a sling could catch onto. I'm also likely not going to relax for a long time where I would sling the rifle on me either. For one thing, police would be on their way and I'd have to disarm before I was face to face with them.
 
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justice06rr said:
Yanked of your feet by what?

If someone is yanking your weapon away from you, you already have other issues to worry about as the other person is already in close proximity to you. Consider not having a sling: if the bad guy yanks your weapon away from you, its just as bad or worse.

Having a sling for retention and stability is more advantageous than not. There is a reason that Military and LE/SWAT use slings.

The choice is yours of course.
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If you're expecting a sling to "aid in retention" then you're already worried about close proximity - which is the essence of home defense.

Yank and push to knock you off balance and onto your keister. You'll see how quickly you lose.

Of course that's not part of "your" fight is it?
 
chicharrones said:
The goals are different between the soldier/LEO and the common criminal.
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I believe he was comparing homeowners and SWAT teams.

Which also don't compare well because of the offense vs defense thing, plus the fact that a homeowner is working alone rather than as part of a team.
 
My home defense rifle wears a sling. 2 tours in Iraq and 10 years in LE, 9 of which I have carried a rifle, and I have cleared literally hundreds of houses, buildings, offices, sewers, sheds, bunkers, etc. Many of those times I was carrying a rifle or M249. Every time I was carrying a long gun it was slung up. I also have many hours of force on force CQB training while carrying a rifle. Can a person grab your rifle and toss you around? Yeah. Is it a given? Not at all. Training for it helps. Me being 6 foot 2 250 pounds and a weight lifter doesn't hurt either...

As far as a difference between Mil/LE and home defense.... for me the only difference is what I'm wearing. CQB is CQB. I am in full blown attack mode until I can get to my family and get them safe. Its unlikely for a bad guy to get a jump on me though as my home defenses are staggered and I don't rely on just one thing. I will always have dogs if only for the security reasons.
 
RX-79G said:
I believe he was comparing homeowners and SWAT teams.

Which also don't compare well because of the offense vs defense thing, plus the fact that a homeowner is working alone rather than as part of a team.
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What I'm saying is it's worth taking note from people who do cqb for a living and in this case the use of slings.

Of course an individual in his pajamas isn't the same as a tactical team but basic cqb drills are applicable across the board.
 
RX-79G said:
I believe he was comparing homeowners and SWAT teams.

Which also don't compare well because of the offense vs defense thing, plus the fact that a homeowner is working alone rather than as part of a team.
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Yeah, I wouldn't stand a chance against an organized team.

A few years ago the quietest of the quiet houses across the street from me turned out to be a "grow" house. I came home early one day with the street lined with regular cars and one patrol car. I waited for my daughter to come home via the school bus, then we both took up watching positions inside our home as I noticed that all those other cars belonged to plain clothes cops. Not the suit wearing cops like on TV, but just regular looking guys that were putting their badges on, donning police type jackets, and checking their other hardware.

After much time had passed, they got the order to go in. It was a small invasion. 4 cops busted through the front door, once inside the garage door was opened where other cops went in, while at the same time a pair of cops with bolt cutters popped open the locked gate to the backyard. All that happened in only seconds with perhaps 6 cops inside the house in the "first wave". I don't know how long they took to go upstairs and clear that area as I couldn't see that. Other's were standing by outside at a distance, with one in particular ready in a Tyvek overall suit.

No shots were fired, but man did they pull out a truckload of hydroponics and plants.

Anyway, that's my only eye witness account of a team of LEOs entering a house.
 
No sling.

When the flashing red and blue lights arrive (likely to a garbled shots fired call) you do not want a gun attached to you that you cannot drop. Responding officers don't know who you are, or who the home invader is, all they are going to see is a guy with an AR-15. Solders (especially Delta Force types) don't incorporate surrendering into their training, they shoot everyone that shows up to confront them. This is not possible in Suburban America. The police will show up (at my house it was 45 seconds, the last time I called 911) and you better be prepared to surrender and let them take control of the situation.
 
By the time the cops arrive, the confrontation should be over with. Besides, this aint' Hollywood and I'm not throwing my firearm on the ground for anyone. Besides, it's a rifle sling, not a corset.

Methinks that the lines are blurred a wee bit. Some are talking about conventional slung-over-the-shoulder slings that may be left dangling when the rifle is shouldered and others are talking about modern tactical slings.

I have a Viking V-TAC on every rifle I own to which it is appropriate. Except my CZ Scorpion that wears a Magpul. Over the last 10yrs, I have done a lot of shooting and maneuvering while slung up in a V-TAC and wouldn't have it any other way. It is vastly superior to running without one. While I do not agree with the "pistol is for fighting back to the rifle" argument, I wholeheartedly disagree that a pistol is somehow superior to a slung rifle, even if carrying a platoon's worth of children.

Shawn Dodson, your comments about retention are laughable at best and not very well thought-out. Someone yanks on my slung rifle, they will have a lot more resistance because that rifle is attached to my person. If it is not, it will be more easily taken from my grasp. So even in your silly scenario, would you rather be on the ground and armed, or standing unarmed and facing a perpetrator with YOUR rifle? No sir, one stands a much better chance of winning the fight with a sling and the perp grabbing the rifle (or sling) is not necessarily a winning situation for him/her. One has to only take a step back and press the trigger.
 
This discussion reminds me of many other gear for HD discussions. Many, seemingly untested therories, and lots of criticism that seems to be based on not understanding how the gear should be used.

Learn how gear is intended to be used. Buy quality stuff. Learn how to properly use it (this may require having someone who actually knows teach you). Test out said gear in training to see what works and what doesn't. As was mentioned earlier taking a class from a quality instructor is a great way to shake out your gear. In every class with newer shooters I've attended I have seen people discover gear issues. That's a much better time to learn those lessons.
 
Soldiers and Delta very much indeed incorporate surrendering enemy into their training. Delta has a few high profile snatch and grabs under their belt.
 
Girodin said:
This discussion reminds me of many other gear for HD discussions. Many, seemingly untested therories, and lots of criticism that seems to be based on not understanding how the gear should be used.

Learn how gear is intended to be used. Buy quality stuff. Learn how to properly use it (this may require having someone who actually knows teach you). Test out said gear in training to see what works and what doesn't. As was mentioned earlier taking a class from a quality instructor is a great way to shake out your gear. In every class with newer shooters I've attended I have seen people discover gear issues. That's a much better time to learn those lessons.
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There you go again using logic and reasoning. Stop that! This is a gun forum, we don't do that here.
 
I have slings on all but one of the guns i would use for HD. I personally haven't found a great sling system for a pump shotgun yet. A handgun is for immediate use, but if I have time to throw on a robe, i have time to slip my sling over head and shoulder to position my carbine. I have little kids in my equasion, and one hand and a sling with the carbine is much better than trying to put on a pistol belt and holster for any handgun. So if I have 30 seconds i grab a slinged rifle or carbine. That being said i am not talking about hunting rifle slings so much, as the one or two point tactical style slings that keep the weapon close to the chest. Just my thoughts and opinions
 
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