The Perfect Sniper Rifle

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The perfect sniper rifle was already invented 125 years ago:

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No other sniper rifle has killed more people. Therefore, it is the best. Obviously.
 
The perfect sniper rifle was already invented 125 years ago:

PEtop34earlyright.jpg


No other sniper rifle has killed more people. Therefore, it is the best. Obviously.
I won't deny that iv'e shot 1000 yards with a Mosin, in fact i'm build a highly custom sporterized Mosin right now.
 
Yes everyone i get that there's no specific cartridge that does it all, i asked many question not just about calibers. That's only a small piece of the puzzle and i think we found it's spot. The consensus is 6.5, 300WM, and 338. Iv'e never considered 6.5 but with it's overwhelming response i'll start researching it, Thanks.

Now let's move on to other things, like overall shape, materials, barrel length, do you like guns with exposed barrel tops: example AI AWM. Or guns that are insides chassis: example CheyTac Intervention. Do you like rails? Where do you like them? Or maybe you prefer a streamlined design? etc etc etc. Anything other than caliber talk, this isn't a hypothetical scenario just an open discussion.
 
There is no perfect or imperfect sniper rifle. There are missions, objectives, range, projectiles and what the desired characteristics, speed and momentum is needed at that distance.
There rest is just the means for delivery and it should be purpose built according to the specification for the roles and missions ahead.
A hit is a hit but the 6.5 maxes out at 140-150gr so the lack of momentum and frontal section restricts its possibilities.
The 6.5 is too light for tactical and military use so you can cross that out and instead consider a suitable 7mm that offers superior ballistics and momentum with comparable cases.
Even the 270 falls a tad short too. Both great rounds for many other roles.
 
My perfect sniper rifle would be built on a Shilen action with a McMillan stock and a brux barrel.

Shilen because it is the best tech between a Savage and a Remington action.

McMillan because it's(to me)an ideal stock. The fusion between light, strong, and fit.

Brux because it is the best available barrel, single point engraved at just a bout any prescribed twist or caliber.

Calibre: out to 1000 would be 7-08 or 260. Because what else?

Like it or not it's my opinion.
 
Yes everyone i get that there's no specific cartridge that does it all, i asked many question not just about calibers. That's only a small piece of the puzzle and i think we found it's spot. The consensus is 6.5, 300WM, and 338. Iv'e never considered 6.5 but with it's overwhelming response i'll start researching it, Thanks.

Now let's move on to other things, like overall shape, materials, barrel length, do you like guns with exposed barrel tops: example AI AWM. Or guns that are insides chassis: example CheyTac Intervention. Do you like rails? Where do you like them? Or maybe you prefer a streamlined design? etc etc etc. Anything other than caliber talk, this isn't a hypothetical scenario just an open discussion.

Sadly, 'caliber talk' is the most important factor, but not because 'one is better than the other' but because it specifically defines what the gun is intended for, which then drives all the other minor details that make it look cool & work well.

I'm sure it's been covered to death, but if the only criteria is accurate & lethal to an unarmored manimal at 1000yds, you only need a cartridge that's supersonic out to that distance --anything much heavier than a BB pellet at that velocity is serious bad news, regardless, and sonic flight means it'll be accurate. So something in the intermediate range like 223/etc with the right VLD bullet and healthy starting velocity (to flatten overall trajectory) would do fine. Supposedly those new 77gr 5.56 rounds can do this, and the various ~6mm AR-oriented chamberings do as well, as do the assorted super-short magnums. Even 308 is kind of overkill as far as recoil for such a role (which is where 6.5CM or 7mm-08 come in, though these are still more powerful than needed to be 'fatal' at longer range but excel at penetrating barriers, 300WM all the more so). Just something to consider, since less powerful rounds require less metal to contain the pressure, less stock/chassis strength to resist recoil, and less stiffness overall to resist smaller off-axis forces that cause barrel whip/etc. Snipers usually have to carry their stuff some distance, after all. Howa now makes a dedicated Grendel action that would make for a nice, light long-range rifle with a quality barrel & stock.

338LM is darn-near into anti-material range like 50 BMG, requiring both large guns and effective brakes to tame prodigious recoil. If killing Trans Ams at 1000yds is the goal, it's a better option than 6.5CM or Grendel.

The real problem with the word 'sniper' isn't that it describes a job/person rather than an object, but rather that the term itself is over broad. Snipers have a lot of jobs anymore, ranging from designated-marksman type stuff embedded in moving groups, to overwatch from a nearby position, to anti-material jobs on helicopters or generators, to surveillance/reconnaissance tasks that don't even require bullets, to the Hathcock ideal of stalking prey for days like a dirty wild animal behind enemy lines, to the Kyle ideal of stalking inferior prey like The Predator with the benefit of modern communications & weapons technology. And each of these has an offensive/defensive angle to them as well (sniping v countersniping). Originally, in the Hathcock days, the requirements were simple and in line with any good hunting rifle, but there's simply too many roles now for those guys for one rifle to do it all. Heck, I don't know much at all about these guys' jobs today, but I know they have a lot on their plate.

So the real question is what is the job, before what are the requirements for that job. Whether the gun is to be a 50lb anti-materiel behemoth fired from a stabilized helicopter or a lightweight patrol rifle with long range optic and accuracy is more basic than where rails are needed.

BTW, rails are so 2010; O-lok is the new hotness today (is two more than M-Lok) ;)

FWIW, my personal 'ideal' long range accuracy rifle is a modernized WA2000 in Grendel. A compact bullpup autoloader that's small enough for 'urban sniping' (or any place where a five-foot rifle is awkward, like everywhere), light enough to be carried for a spell & shot from the various positions (more entertaining than simple bench-rest or prone), still accurate and powerful enough to reach out to around 1000 yards effectively (good round number, and the farthest most can go without excessive practice, much more powerful cartridges, and massive telescopic sights & spotters, not to to mention well beyond the max range available to practically everyone). Also fully ambidextrous, possessing a quality match trigger, and sight mounting rail floated off both the barrel and its tension struts. The WA2000 was originally imagined as a purely anti-personnel rifle intended for counter-sniper/regular-sniper police activities that was small enough to comfortably operate indoors. Sadly, Walther made it way too expensive, and also a lot more powerful than needed in 308, 300WM, and 7.5 Swiss, which made it bigger/heavier than would have otherwise been the case.

TCB

PS; rails are for attaching do-dads, so you want them for optics up top, and potentially for grips/supports on the bottom. You aren't attaching lasers or lights to the sides like a Costa'ed service rifle from five years ago, but just in case people insist there be some method to attach them there. The reason for a 'chassis tube' over the barrel is to get the point you can mount a bipod further away from the shooter (so the point of aim pivots less as the shooter moves the butt around) without having to attach it to the barrel directly & affect accuracy poorly.
 
The 'perfect' sniper rifle? Oh, a one megawatt laser rifle. Totally quite, no bullet drop, no wind deflection, range limited to the earths curvature, burns through inches of steel, or trees, or well just about anything.

Just get a capacitor that will take a million joules for a one second burst and a laser that can take it.

Deaf
 
The 'perfect' sniper rifle? Oh, a one megawatt laser rifle. Totally quite, no bullet drop, no wind deflection, range limited to the earths curvature, burns through inches of steel, or trees, or well just about anything.

Just get a capacitor that will take a million joules for a one second burst and a laser that can take it.

Deaf
Firstly thats not fair. Secondly capacitors are measured in Farads( as in Faraday) not Joules. Without a fleet of support, your tech is 75 years in the future, at best. Thirdly, I like the way you think.
 
Lasers suck in-atmosphere (and not only because they blind the operator)
 
In my day I witnessed individuals with less than perfect equipment exceed the limitations of conventional wisdom. People talk equipment bur few have the ability to master the equipment to its full potential. There are those that can't and the select few among us that can.
 
Firstly thats not fair. Secondly capacitors are measured in Farads( as in Faraday) not Joules. Without a fleet of support, your tech is 75 years in the future, at best. Thirdly, I like the way you think.

Well I like to think BIG! I understand the Navy already has one. Mite big but hey, with mirrors on satellites you could shoot 2000 miles away!

Deaf
 
These type of threads show up from time to time.

I shot the 338 for some time and I could not drive the rifle like I expected. Got rid of it and took the hit.
I occasionally shoot the WM and will give me comparable trajectories with the 230gr bergers. Still a hand full to properly drive it.
I shot the 260 for a few years and I love it. Very light, very accurate but in a occasions has failed to score in heavy steel gates due to the lack of momentum of the 6.5.
One might have the same situation on a tactical situation or with heavy game.
After that I dived into the 7mm with the 7-08 and remmag and the ballistics are perfect for any type of practical and tactical shooting.
Better ballistics, shooting flatter and further but specialty more momentum on the target w/o excessive report and expense.
It is easier to make contact at any distance specially past the effective range of most popular rounds.

Perhaps this old thread will provide some insight...

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...sus-7mm-rem-mag-for-multi-gun-matches.532750/
 
After that I dived into the 7mm with the 7-08 and remmag and the ballistics are perfect for any type of practical and tactical shooting.
Better ballistics, shooting flatter and further but specialty more momentum on the target w/o excessive report and expense.
It is easier to make contact at any distance specially past the effective range of most popular rounds.

It's truly amazing how close to optimum they got with the very first smokeless spitzer cartridge ever fielded, the 7mm Mauser, isn't it? Only real difference between it and 7-08 is a shorter case made possible by better propellants technology. But the basic specs are essentially the same as ever over a hundred years later.

TCB
 
It's truly amazing how close to optimum they got with the very first smokeless spitzer cartridge ever fielded, the 7mm Mauser, isn't it? Only real difference between it and 7-08 is a shorter case made possible by better propellants technology. But the basic specs are essentially the same as ever over a hundred years later.

TCB

What is amazing to me is that we do not have more target rifles and ballistics info on the 7mm-08 but this is also the rifle and ammo makers fault
because it seems that both rifle makers and ammo makers want to market this as a mid weight, mid range range deer / hog / elk caliber when in fact it is a lot more.
But ammo is out there and with the 160gr to 175gr bullets plus varmint/tactical heavy barrels the round offers superior ballistics and momentum on the target.
for tactical users the 308 feels a tad on the large side and the 6.5 a tad on the light side. Energy is ok but momentum so so that is why those 20-40 extra grains make all the difference w/o
getting into the big 30 cal and 338 big mommas and all the consequences that this has. Taper and shoulder also pass the filter by military standards whereas cartriges w/o much body
taper or sharp shoulders like 30 or 35 degree will be filtered out for military service. I mean, we might see them in small special units and still many other nice casings nice for for other roles.
I am trying to be pragmatic and realistic. I think that Zak's assessment in that old thread has not changed that much to this day.
One thing that I also share enthusiasm for is the amazing potential of the 280 for those who want to stay away from the rem mag for whatever reason yet they want superior ballistics to anything in comparable cases and capacities.
Like in the SA the 7-08 is to the 308 what the 280 is to the 30-06 in the LA.
So lots of nice actions and brass options and comparable costs yet improved ballistics for long range work.
 
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1st Marine, agree on the 7mm-08. Actually a better projectile than the 308 with the heavier pills you mention.
 
Now let's move on to other things, like overall shape...

There is only one bullpup bolt action now on the market that I have seen, in the caliber range you are looking at, and if done right, something further of the sort would be an interesting new development.

A couple of obvious points: The bolt handle goes on the front end of the bolt. The throw of the bolt should not extend behind the butt plate. The trigger actuation system is going to be a challenge if you want to get the good trigger pull that precision rifle shooters like and are used to. It's a troublesome design problem to have a trigger under your finger release a sear a good ways aft of there.

I think an electrical trigger offers a lot in this use. The trigger unleashes the current and the current drops the sear. Difficult mechanical linkages are thus avoided. This might be piezo-electric with a striker if you want to avoid having batteries that go dead at just the wrong time.
 
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It's a troublesome design problem to have a trigger under your fingerrelease a sear a good ways aft of there.
Do what Kel Tec did on the RDB; trigger & sear are at the grip, but release a linkage that drives the hammer instead of the hammer itself. Most guns put the linkage between trigger and sear, which makes the pull lousy. A slick solution that I'm surprised in retrospect wasn't the standard practice all along.

TCB
 
I don't know about ideal, but I have a Unique Alpine TPG 1 in 6.5x55 swedisch topped with a Schmidt & Bender PMII 5-25x56.
My little girl and I regularly shoot 0.25 moa 5 shot groups with Lapua Match 123 gr factory ammo. (100 metres indoor range, so no wind) I'm very pleased with it and so is everyone that has shot this beauty.

Missed out on the WA2000 recently sold in my neighborhood.
 
Are you taking about energy or accuracy, you really need both but do you want a range limitation. I personally really like the 7-08. I don't think it is the optimum sniper round. The ballistics are so close to the 7.62 NATO that the military would just stick with the .308. I doubt I would chose a smaller round than he 7-08. I think for range a 7mm RM has 1000 ft/lbs out to around 1100 plus meters. The 300 WM is another 200 yards or so. Also portability is a serious consideration along with supply and service and mission.
A friend of mine was a Marine sniper and used a scoped, special built M-14. Another sniper friend used a M-24. I talked to my grand nephew today who is in the Marine scout sniper program. He said at the school you have 2 weeks of physical training before they even touch a rifle. He has to be able to pack over 100 lbs. That is after 2 previous schools of standard and infantry training. It is the man, not the rifle that makes a sniper.
 
Do what Kel Tec did on the RDB; trigger & sear are at the grip, but release a linkage that drives the hammer instead of the hammer itself. Most guns put the linkage between trigger and sear, which makes the pull lousy. A slick solution that I'm surprised in retrospect wasn't the standard practice all along.

'Cuz it makes the lock time lousy.

One could consider mid-grip specialty pistols to be equivalent to bull pup rifle designs - and the precision SP's are all direct linkage driven, not sear driven.
 
@d2wing
The 308 does a lot of things and does them very well but I have to respectfully disagree with you in your assessment of the 7mm/08 as a long range round.
The 7mm/08 when loaded with bullets in the 160-175 range is a superior round in terms of ballistics and momentum on the target.
It extends the effective range of the 7.62x51 from 800 yards to well past 1100 yards before dealing with trans-sonic range.
We know the 7.62x51 can be stretched to make 1000+ yards hits but this is where the 7mm/08 precisely delivers with less drop and drift and more momentum.
Thanks to the amazing 7mm bullets it delivers more than any 6.5, 270 or 30 caliber from comparable cases.
In summary, it does more with less and will make a sniper, hunter or tactical shooter more effective.
 
'Cuz it makes the lock time lousy.

One could consider mid-grip specialty pistols to be equivalent to bull pup rifle designs - and the precision SP's are all direct linkage driven, not sear driven.
True, but lock time <<<<< lousy trigger when it comes to bullpup shooter's common complaints. It is a valid question why no one has copied a 1911s lockwork in a bullpup, though (with longer stirrup)

TCB
 
I have a kimber montana in 300wsm. It is just a hunting rifle. Handloads with barnes 180g ttsx bullets (bc of .484) and superformance powder give me just under 3200fps muzzle. The ballistic calculator I used gives a velocity of 1520 fps at 1000 yds. Not a sniper rifle but still packing a good bit of energy at range.
 
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