Is this an 1860 Army?

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Curator said:
Half-fluted cylinders were available by special order to the civilian market right up to about 1868. Not many of them were made but they are authentic.
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I’d be very interested to see a photo of a genuine Colt New Model Army or Holster Pistol with an original half-fluted (not full-fluted) cylinder.
This image from the NRA’s National Firearms Museum website doesn’t seem to agree.



iqeo11.jpg
 
Berkley said:
I’d be very interested to see a photo of a genuine Colt New Model Army or Holster Pistol with an original half-fluted (not full-fluted) cylinder.
I should have consulted my own bookshelf rather than my memory before posting.
Haven and Belden's A History of the Colt Revolver shows this one with the comment: "This piece is unusual in that it is provided with a half-fluted cylinder to special order."

67k45y.jpg
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I like the half fluted cylinders just fine. My biggest complaint if I was to have one would be the fake ivory grip. I'd prefer real wood over fake Ivory, but heck I'd of dropped down the $175 for that rig too. You won't have too much trouble getting your money back if you ever regret your decision.
 
Like I said, they're rare but Colt did make some that were half fluted.

Can you Imagine what that original Colt would be worth with its half fluted cylinder!!!
 
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The pair in reply #15 are Ubertis from 1968.Bought the first one new and chose the 1/2 fluted because I love the looks and easy to clean. When the 2nd one showed up on Gun Broker 3 years ago and only 80 miles away I got it for $180. We can always get a rolled engraved cylinder if we want to look like every one else.
 
Woodlander, read posts #12 and #23, or better yet contact the Hartford Library Colt research assistant, pay $15 for his/her time to look it up and get the real truth. There are numerous books on Colt revolver production that you can read that will tell you the same thing. If you are an attorney (or a journalism major) you can waffle on your statement that "issued" is not the same as "offered' particularly on special order. As Crawdad1 posted, "they are rare but Colt did offer them." I have personally handled two of them with all matching serial numbers and in the 1864 year of production. One was 4-screw and cut for shoulder stock, the other was 3-screw and no recoil shield cut. Both had a "Colt letters" of authentication from the Hartford Library depository of Colt Company records.
 
My mistake. Never having seen an original one or read about one, I thought they were a Pietta fantasy.
I stand corrected.
Sincere apologies to anyone I have annoyed.
Thanks to you, Curator, Crawdad1, and Berkley, for setting the record straight and expanding my knowledge of Colt revolvers.
 
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Tacoma, Fresh or salt water? Next time your planing a trip over here let me know, we could get together for lunch or something. You could check out my accumulation, I don't consider it a collection, and my reloading, casting set up.

Don
 
Woodlander said:
My mistake. Never having seen an original one or read about one, I thought they were a Pietta fantasy.
I stand corrected.
Sincere apologies to anyone I have annoyed.
Thanks to you, Curator, Crawdad1, and Berkley, for setting the record straight and expanding my knowledge of Colt revolvers.
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Woodlander (Ringo),

Don't feel bad when it comes to Pietta creations. They make all sorts of concoctions.

I would like to see those three folks mentioned above to validate this one insofar a Colt option. If so, I'll eat my hat.

Here is for sale a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 replica with a half-fluted barrel which has no historical connections whatsoever that I know of. It has a date code of [BF] (1995) and has very nice wood. IMO, It never happened in the 19th century with Colt unless upon a very special order from the factory. Your call.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/606729718

The weird thing about this pistol is that it does not appear to have the Pietta "tail". For this date stamp, I believe someone has "massaged" it to appear to some folks that think is a "correct" 1851 Navy grip profile.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

All one has to do is refer to Nathan L. Swayze's essential book to know that there is no such thing as a "correct" grip profile, whether it be horizontal view or end view. Here is an end view:

1851%20Colt%20Navy%20010_zpsjpxepbgv.jpg



ItalianDateStamps_zps1bjf73js.jpg


And I know you are an 1851 Navy guy!

Jim
 
Curator said:
A U.S. Cavalryman would wear the 1860 Army pistol butt forward on his right side and his saber on his left side. Cross-draw the saber with the right hand as it was their principal fighting weapon. Pistol was drawn with the left hand after the saber was replaced in its scabbard or lost, then transferred to the right hand. Reins typically held in left hand even while drawing the pistol.

The first 4000 or so run of the 1860 Army Colts had full-length fluted cylinders, and many of these were sent to Texas in the days before the ACW broke out. Half-fluted cylinders were available by special order to the civilian market right up to about 1868. Not many of them were made but they are authentic.
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Can you find a picture of an original 1860 Army with a half fluted cylinder? I've never seen one and have always maintained that these repros are a repro of a gun that Colt never made. I've only seen the full fluted versions. But I bet if there are any half fluted versions they look more like the flutes on an 1862 police and nothing like the Piettas flutes.
 
Full fluted cylinders were on early guns, but some cylinders burst with full powder charges and Colt began using the familiar rebated cylinders. I've never seen any indication that the rebated ones gave any trouble.

I haven't personally seen any original half fluted cylinders. I'm not an advanced Colt collector, but have read many books on guns and never saw such a cylinder. We're discussing the 1860 .44, not the New Model Police of 1862.
 
Click on the picture it will expand to show an original Colt with a half fluted cylinder.
What's even more interesting is Jim's post beneath it showing all the different original grips offered on Colts. Maybe Pietta's 'Tail' isn't so far off after all.
 
Great score on that whole rig! ! ! ! !

Judging by the consistent edge pattern on the rig I also suspect it was done by the original owner or a leather crafting friend of theirs.

As for wearing the rig butt forward you should watch this and practice your own cavalry twist draw. I put my own regular cowboy action rig on backwards to try it and it really is a smooth and safe way to draw from a holster. I'm surprised it's not seen and CORRECTLY used more often. When done as Mike's video shows there's no more sweeping of any body parts during the draw than with a regular holster.

 
Crawdad1 said:
What's even more interesting is Jim's post beneath it showing all the different original grips offered on Colts. Maybe Pietta's 'Tail' isn't so far off after all.
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I hope I am not hijacking this thread.

As I own only Pietta 1851 Navy type pistols (Confederates included), I must point out a few things about the Pietta "tail" that some others are slowly coming to agreement about.

The next photo I have posted before here and on other forums, but I feel it illustrates my point.

Pietta was not wrong with the grip "tail", but rather with the curvature of the frontstrap of trigger guard, which is not correct considering the originals.

Look closely: the "tail" pistol is the 2014 [CM] squareback 1851 gun and the newer "non-tail" pistol is the 2015 [CN] G&G gun.

1851_GampG%20008_zps8srvxzph.jpg


Here is a Pietta 2014 "tail" wood installed on a Pietta 2015 backstrap and trigger guard.

Pietta_1851%20008_zpsd9wbymrg.jpg


Very different.

The "tail" has historical inferences:

Colt%20London%20Plate%20100%20001_zpscega9vdq.jpg


Here is also a 2014 trigger guard installed with a 2015 backstrap, just for reference. Please disregard the handy non-correct chrome screw I used to position them.

GampG%20TG%20BS%20004_zpswxud2vpj.jpg


Please don't believe all of the politically correct references to absolute "correct" grip profile/frame/width because it is nonsense.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Jim
 
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Crawdad1 said:
Click on the picture it will expand to show an original Colt with a half fluted cylinder.
What's even more interesting is Jim's post beneath it showing all the different original grips offered on Colts. Maybe Pietta's 'Tail' isn't so far off after all.
Click to expand...


Witch picture? Can you list the post number? Some posts seem to have disappeared. I can't find the photo posted by some member named Jim, showing a valid Colt with half flutes on the cylinder. The post named isn't there anymore.


NEVER MND: I can now see posts that I couldn't yesterday. And I see where some Colts had that upward flair at the bottom of the grip and later ones from Hartford didn't. Most informative...
 
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Crawdad1 said:
Look at post #28. That is an original Colt with a half fluted cylinder that Berkley was kind enough to post for us.
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Thank you I did not see that before. As I expected the half flutes look like those on the '62 Police and they look good. This is how Pietta should do it if they wanted it to look good.
Sorry but the Pietta flutes look absolutely terrible on that style of revolver.
 
You have to admit though there is something for everybody in the 1860 Army. Fully fluted, half fluted or engraved, they all have their special appeal. :)
 
Well, Col. John Singleton Mosby, CSA, liked the New Model (1860) Army .44, too. In his, Memoirs, he noted, "We didn't pay for them, but the US government did."

Some early ones had 7.5-inch barrels, and most of those had full fluted cylinders. These soon gave way to 8-inch barrels and rebated cylinders.
 
As far as the "rebated cyl"., all Army cylinders are rebated non-fluted, half fluted and full fluted. Otherwise, a .44 ball/ conical would be too big!

Mike
 
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