Ruger Scout rifle problem

Kendal Black said:

It looks to me like the bolt action was selected because field-tough autoloaders in .308 were, at the time, judged to be too heavy--think here of the M14 and the FAL.

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And they still are - I've yet to see an AR-10 with optics come in less than 8 lbs when the target for a scout is less than 7 lbs.

Elkins45 said:

It is the ballistic equivalent of a spork: not as good at spooning as a spoon and not as good at forking as a fork.

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This is a horrible analogy. The caliber, speed and weight of the scout rifle are just as well suited to hunting as they are to human targets. It's more akin to using a spoon for both ice cream and soup.

Now I'm hungry.

Llama Bob said:

This is a horrible analogy. The caliber, speed and weight of the scout rifle are just as well suited to hunting as they are to human targets. It's more akin to using a spoon for both ice cream and soup.

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Wow, Llama Bob disagrees with someone's opinion. That's never happened before.

So how many nations are fielding bolt action rifles as their primary infantry arm in 2017. It's like serving soup with a spaghetti spoon when you can have a ladle instead. Like that one better?

Some love the Scout Rifle, some hate it. Some folks love the Browning Hi-Power, some hate it. Some love...., some hate....(fill in the blanks). Just the nature of human nature.

For me, it is the rifle that I grab when I am not sure what I am going to need a rifle for. Part of this is the due to the locale in which I live, and the places to which I travel. When I find myself kicking around down near the Mexican border, it is just right for coyotes, whether on four legs or two.

Elkins45 said:

So how many nations are fielding bolt action rifles as their primary infantry arm in 2017?

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Presumably none. And if you look at the stats on modern small arms fire, you'll find that it's become completely ineffective relative to what was seen in conflicts where bolt rifles were used. That's not a coincidence. It's certainly possible to be effective with an auto, but it's impossible to be effective with the absurd mentality that an auto somehow offers something that helps you hit.

Rounds shipped to theater per enemy killed is now well into the hundreds of thousands for the current US conflicts. Our infantry rifles (and for that matter LMGs) are now nothing more than slightly malicious looking noisemakers.

So ditch the scout rifle and buy an A-10 Warthog or a mortar battery if you want a combat weapon, not a bolt gun with a mid-mount optic.

You help make my point: the scout is a compromise tool where no compromise is needed.

Your "point" is bafflingly unclear. The scout rifle is designed for two things: hunting medium to large game non-dangerous game, and shooting at people in the field both within 300y or so. If your application is one of those, it will likely serve you well and indeed far better than most rifles. If your application is something else, you may need a different tool.

I have to agree with the spork analogy. The scout rifle was designed from the onset as a jack of all trades and master of none. I think the use of detachable magazines supersedes the need to use stripper clips and that takes away a lot of the incentive to using a scout scope, which is rather limited. I'll gladly give up any little bit of snap shooting advantage to have a more versatile optic. Some folks might like a forward mounted optic but I tried it and don't care for it.

If the scout rifle trend continues the way semi-auto rifle trends go, this year they will come out with a version with additional rails mounted at the 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions around the forend so you can mount a flashlight, a laser, a spork, a folding saw, a leather awl, a cork-screw, two screwdrivers, and a can-opener on the rifle. They'll call it the "Boy Scout Rifle" in honor of the Boy Scout Knife (I think "Swiss Army Rifle" is already taken) or maybe the Leatherman Scout Versarifle. It will be belt-fed so you don't have to worry about those pesky stripper clips or bulky magazines, and the scope mounts will be on locking slides so you can slide it back or forth along the rifle's length based on the time of day and the position of the sun in the sky. Obviously, the scope will have to be a 1-power to do this, but they will have flip-down lenses (like at the optometrist's office) to allow for greater magnification that is customizable to the scope location and your personal prescription.

Where the hell did I put my levergun?

Polarized sunglasses will knock the glare off the lens. Obviously that's a situational solution.

Hastings said:

If the scout rifle trend continues the way semi-auto rifle trends go, this year they will come out with a version with additional rails mounted at the 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions around the forend so you can mount a flashlight, a laser, a spork, a folding saw, a leather awl, a cork-screw, two screwdrivers, and a can-opener on the rifle. They'll call it the "Boy Scout Rifle" in honor of the Boy Scout Knife (I think "Swiss Army Rifle" is already taken) or maybe the Leatherman Scout Versarifle. It will be belt-fed so you don't have to worry about those pesky stripper clips or bulky magazines, and the scope mounts will be on locking slides so you can slide it back or forth along the rifle's length based on the time of day and the position of the sun in the sky. Obviously, the scope will have to be a 1-power to do this, but they will have flip-down lenses (like at the optometrist's office) to allow for greater magnification that is customizable to the scope location and your personal prescription.

Where the hell did I put my levergun?

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I wonder why some people feel the need to poke fun at the potential accessorizing made possible by picatinny rails? While some take it to the extreme with crap they don't have any use for, others might actually 'need' a light, foregrip or laser.

CraigC,

It wasn't my intention to offend anyone, but I do believe that the industry tends to take very practical ideas, like a rail, and overhype them to the point or being absurd. What you or I want in a gun is our own business. What we feel we need in a gun is often the result of clever marketing and media. I'm not poking fun at the potential accessorizing made possible by picatinny rails. I'm simply asking how many rails do you need to add to a rifle before it becomes more comical than practical. Lots of odd products out there. Mossberg 454 SPX comes to mind. Might be a great gun, but it looks more like the company said "This product is not selling well. Let's add as many trendy accessories to it as we can and see if it boosts sales."

How does this apply to the scout rifle concept. Like this. We have a boat-load of fantastic hunters who are highly skilled with their iron-sighted leverguns or their traditionally scoped bolt-guns. They take a ton of deer each year. They will likely never have to hunt another human, and their equipment has served them very well. Enter a big-name gunwriter with great credentials who touts a specific rifle set-up as best all around option. In spite of the fact that many of the features have been eclipsed by more modern firearm innovations, someone decides to market the idea. That starts the dominoes falling until every company offers one of their standard rifles with a few modifications at a highly inflated price.

I bought one, so I can't criticize anyone else. Tried the scout scope thing on it, and found it didn't suit me at all. Some love it, some don't. Not pokin' fun. Just shaking my head at the industry.

I don't understand how a scout rifle is relevant in 2017. I've never used one in the field but the concept would take so much retraining it's not worth it, at all.

For what it's worth, I think a 18" AR in 6.8 and a 1-4 power scope would fill the role perfectly.

A scout rifle is pretty effective on cardboard targets out to 300 yards... But if your target had even an AK shooting back you would have to have nerves of steel to respond to his 30 rnd burst with an accurate shot from your bolt gun.

HB said:

I don't understand how a scout rifle is relevant in 2017. I've never used one in the field but the concept would take so much retraining it's not worth it, at all.

For what it's worth, I think a 18" AR in 6.8 and a 1-4 power scope would fill the role perfectly.

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If retraining means learning to run a bolt action versus shooting an autoloader, I can see your point. However, many people know the basics of bolt action operation and can become more proficient with a little practice.

HB said:

A scout rifle is pretty effective on cardboard targets out to 300 yards... But if your target had even an AK shooting back you would have to have nerves of steel to respond to his 30 rnd burst with an accurate shot from your bolt gun.

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Sounds like a combat scenario. Early 20th century versus mid 20th century.

At least you mention 300 yards distance. That might tip the advantage to the scoped bolt gun over the AK.

But wait, I would just keep my head down and run through the trenches all the way back home.

Hastings said:

CraigC,

It wasn't my intention to offend anyone, but I do believe that the industry tends to take very practical ideas, like a rail, and overhype them to the point or being absurd. What you or I want in a gun is our own business. What we feel we need in a gun is often the result of clever marketing and media. I'm not poking fun at the potential accessorizing made possible by picatinny rails. I'm simply asking how many rails do you need to add to a rifle before it becomes more comical than practical. Lots of odd products out there. Mossberg 454 SPX comes to mind. Might be a great gun, but it looks more like the company said "This product is not selling well. Let's add as many trendy accessories to it as we can and see if it boosts sales."

How does this apply to the scout rifle concept. Like this. We have a boat-load of fantastic hunters who are highly skilled with their iron-sighted leverguns or their traditionally scoped bolt-guns. They take a ton of deer each year. They will likely never have to hunt another human, and their equipment has served them very well. Enter a big-name gunwriter with great credentials who touts a specific rifle set-up as best all around option. In spite of the fact that many of the features have been eclipsed by more modern firearm innovations, someone decides to market the idea. That starts the dominoes falling until every company offers one of their standard rifles with a few modifications at a highly inflated price.

I bought one, so I can't criticize anyone else. Tried the scout scope thing on it, and found it didn't suit me at all. Some love it, some don't. Not pokin' fun. Just shaking my head at the industry.

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I'm not offended by words spoken by a stranger on the internet. If I were, I'd have pulled the plug after my first encounter with an animal rights lunatic.

I don't judge by marketing or "hype". I fully acknowledge that there is marketing directed at some folks who love "tactical" gear because they think it's cool. And that's fine, some of this stuff is "cool" and I'm not too serious or full of myself to admit it. However, some of it is also highly useful. Some folks actually 'need' and use the kinds of accessories you're poking fun at. For example, when I moved out of the suburbs of Florida and into the middle of nowhere in TN, I continued raising chickens just as I had for years prior. There's a lot of possums, coons, foxes, coyotes and feral cats in Florida but there's 1000 times as many in the Tennessee hills. They all have one thing in common, they love fresh chicken! They will find the weakness in your chicken pen and exploit it. So the first year I lived here, I shot a lot of varmints but also lost a lot of chickens. Eventually, I got tired of trying to hold an outdated Maglite while trying to find the possum in the 4x scope on my leveraction .22Mag. There had to be a better way. After a ton of research, I decided to put together a purpose-built .22 whose only role was to eliminate varmints that come out at night to eat my feed and my chickens. One of the things painfully obvious was that it needed a lot of features one might consider "tacticool" and that included picatinny rails. It's evolved a bit since I first put it together. I've posted pics of it many times and it always gets a mixed response with some criticism by folks who don't understand. Any day of the week I'd rather be rabbit or squirrel hunting with a Cooper but when the sun sets, there is nothing better for dealing with nocturnal pests. It has accounted for an unknown number of varmints in the last several years. Including 19 skunks in 2016. As a purpose-built tool, it has no equal and as of this fall, I'm finally able to put a suppressor on it.

CraigC,

That right there is a testimony to what accessories should be for. You've put together a purpose-driven firearm that meets your needs as closely as possible and it is used for it's intended purpose on a regular basis. Nothing foolish or comical about that. It's commendable.

Up here in Vermont it's woodchucks in the garden and coyotes looking to snag your cats or take down unfortunate deer. Just last week a pack of coyotes drove a big doe out onto the ice on the lake near my house. When I spotted her from my friend's cabin window, she was out near the center of the lake acting funny. With binoculars we were able to tell her one of her legs was broken. Tracks indicated the coyotes didn't follow her out too far, but it was hard to tell if the jump down to the ice broke her leg or the coyotes had managed to get hold of her and break it. She stayed near the center of the lake for a few minutes then limped over to the closest point of land. Couldn't have shot at the coyotes even if they were on the ice due to the cabins on the other side of the lake.

What is the sight you have on your 22, by the way? I hope to get an inexpensive night-vision scope in the near future so I can set up in the fields the coyotes frequent at night and start to cut down the population in the area.

I use a Rossi 45colt levergun for skunk, and a Gamo air rifle for red squirrels. The red squirrels are a real pain in the butt, especially when they get in the house. In the spring and fall, the skunks are a problem when they come up to our door and seem to wait for me to let the dogs out in the middle of the night. Good flood light in the back yard and 10 rounds of 255gr hardcast lead solve the problem until the next batch come waddling along the following week. If I could invent an antidote for the skunk odor I'd be wealthy. It hangs in the back-yard after I've zapped a few. Sometimes the don't release when they die, and sometimes they do. I go for head-shots, but the 255gr bullets aren't always that surgical.

Thanks! The sight is a Vortex Strikefire with the option of a red or green dot.

I've actually spent the last year playing with a Sightmark Photon XT 4x and it works great, especially for its modest price. Wasn't terribly easy to get mounted and I added an external infrared illuminator but it works very well.

http://a.co/26LqEKY

I looked at the Sightmark online, but I wanted to try one in person before I ponied up the cash to buy one. This is a great opportunity to ask some questions of someone who isn't a salesman.

Is the sight usable in daylight? Maybe a silly question, but I need to ask.

Without the illuminator, how far is the scope practical for using on, say, coyote size game, or skunk sized game?

How about with the illuminator? Does it simply enhance image clarity or does it also extend range?

If and when I get a similar scope, I'd be shooting from a blind or prone with a bipod. Ranges the coyotes are typically at is between 50 and 400 yards. Often partial cover depending on the height of the grass in the area and the time of year. I could probably draw them out to bait, but I'd rather wait for them to come in naturally. My brother and I sat and watched a field one night with his digital ir camera he uses to do energy audits. It's a $5,000 piece of equipment, but far to bulky to use as a scope. Looks more like a medium sized floodlight you'd plug into a car cigarette lighter. The deer came out about an hour before dark and feed at the perimeter of the fields and are unmolested until it is dark. Three doe spent about an hour grazing. As it approached "dark" the deer got spooked and ran toward the far end of the field (about 675 yards away). As we watched, coyotes came out of the swamps and woods at the bottom of the field about 275 to 325 yards away, and congregated in a very social way like a bunch of dogs at a dog park. Their young came with them. We watched one group of three adults with five or six young run along the edge of the field about 400 yards away and meet up with a pack of six or more adults. Two of the adults took the young ones back into the swamps and the rest of the coyotes headed out in the direction the deer had gone in. For the next hour the field was like a coyote grand-central station. They would come in from almost every direction alone or in groups and seemed to use the bottom of the field as a crossroads of sorts. Really fun to watch. Would be even better if we were set up to shoot after dark.

Any and all info you can give me on the Sightmark will be both helpful and greatly appreciated. Gives me something to look forward to come spring. It's 8 below right now and I wouldn't want to be laying in a field tonight in spite of the bright moonlight. Not bad weather for a moonlight walk in the fields, but not for laying in the snow for hours.

Thanks
Hastings

HB said:

For what it's worth, I think a 18" AR in 6.8 and a 1-4 power scope would fill the role perfectly.

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I'd be okay with that setup. I am arguing here based on what scout rifle aficionados would say to the contrary. I am not an aficionado but I have been party to their discussion from its early days. So I'm quoting them. I have no cock in the fight.

The Cooperite would say that the scout is a .308 because you can get ammunition that will fit, nearly anywhere in what was then referred to as the free world, and now more broadly called the Western nations. The 6.8, despite its excellence, is still something of a hen's tooth.

Further, it would be said that the 6.8 is a little bit light when it is matched up against the goal that the scout be functional for medium to big (but not hugest) game animals. For all its virtues, the 6.8 is still an intermediate-class cartridge. That objection being noted, every American big game species has been killed with the .30-30, and every African species with the 7.62x39, though in the African matter it no doubt sometimes resembles death by woodpecker.

To the OP's original questions. I believe a nicer scout scope than the Bushnell you currently have would definitely help with the glare.

I flat out don't see as well through scout scopes as I do through receiver mounted scopes and because of that it takes me longer to acquire the target. So I'll stick with a conventional set up unless the scout option is the only way to use an optic. YMMV.

HB said:

For what it's worth, I think a 18" AR in 6.8 and a 1-4 power scope would fill the role perfectly.

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Sure if your idea of hunting is walking 50yrds from your vehicle to your stand I am sure its the Bee's knees...
However, if your idea of hunting is hiking up to treeline in a day, your AR is a pig...

HB said:

A scout rifle is pretty effective on cardboard targets out to 300 yards... But if your target had even an AK shooting back you would have to have nerves of steel to respond to his 30 rnd burst with an accurate shot from your bolt gun.

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Your not in Ramadi.. You're in STL according to your avitar. Your chances of being attacked by a person weilding an AK are approximately the same as being bitten by a shark walking to the nearest pub.

Pub-prowling sidewalk-sharks require a totally different type of rifle set-up, for sure.

Tommy gun with heavy duty rail to accept cordless chainsaw. No first-hand experience, so I'm relying on Sharknado for pointers.

Only on the internet can something as simple as the location of a rifle scope, get people so riled up. LOL

I know one thing for sure, Scout rifles with forward mounted scopes LOOK cooler than rifles with conventional scopes.

This all gives me a good idea for a new thread.