Disarming Training

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/835737.Kill_Or_Get_Killed
Read the chapter on disarming and practice with a friend.

I would check with the martial arts gyms near you before dismissing them out of hand. I've seen Krav Maga instructors run clinics on disarming knife/gun opponents, surviving active shootings as an armed/unarmed civilian, etc. Up-front costs typically require no obligation.

These are worth making a call over, as they may not always appear on a website dedicated primarily to family-friendly sport and fitness. And it may be worth calling places whose first purpose isn't Krav; often sophisticated instructors will cross-train in Krav Maga but teach a more lucrative art like TKD for their market (it is a business, after all).

I googled "gun disarm classes" and there were just a few that seemed sketchy at best.

I know from first hand experience that most MA's aren't going to get into anything weapons related until you've obtained a higher level belt, usually 2-3yrs minimum time investment.


I sympathize with you though and look forward to other comments on this topic.

My daughter takes Krav Maga classes. Based on what I saw her learning, if you've achieved control of the arm holding the weapon, you can inflict some damage.

I took Karate years ago from someone who turned out to be a world class fighter from Japan. I lucked up. He was humble enough to keep that to himself. I found out by looking up his name. We did more than katas, we had sparing matches that were less than polite to prepare us for real fights. Based on his teaching, I rarely see teachers that are that serious. Too many mall based instructors realize their students can't tell the difference.

The Front Sight empty hand and edged weapons courses cover and practice weapon disarms.

I once was responsible for training a private law enforcement entity in disarming techniques; students had to 'strip' a pistol aimed at head height, and immobilize a pistol aimed at waist height, before the 'offender' could 'fire' the training weapon.

With a couple hours of practice and simple instruction, I never found a student (female, male, small or large) who could not pass the standard; you just need to find someone who actually knows how to teach it, and that likely won't be a 'straight' MA instructor, IMHO; the MA based techniques I was taught in 6 different styles only 'worked' with training guns.


Larry

Yes there are techniques that work quite well for disarming (and they're part of serious weapons retention training...) but I think you'll look really hard and find little on the open market available.... I'll be watching this thread to see what develops. We did that sort of training (both sides of the issue -disarming and weapons retention) as part of in-service training. I've never seen private instruction that I thought was comparable.... I think weapons retention training in some form ought to be a standard part of the training routine for anyone carrying a firearm. There really are a select few on the dark side of things (very active bad guys) who don't carry a weapon, since they're planning on taking yours to start the party....

By the way, years ago there were a few video clips of inmates in a prison yard practicing disarmament techniques....that did get most in law enforcement's attention....

I've trained others all across the US in disarms in my h2h/defensive edged weapons courses for the last decade.Picked up the skills back in 80 at SIONICS counter-terr training, Powder Springs, Ga.

What you see in the vid and next two took 5 minutes to learn from the mentors. Had to turn around and disarm them after the 5 minute one on one lesson. Physically easier than it looks, it's mostly having the mentality that you can take control of your environment with the skills you possess, not the physicality of the disarms.

Some will consider this foolish. However, I've had two instances where these disarming skills were utilized on the street and afforded my being able to sleep in my own bed that night instead of a hospital bed or the morgue slab. In a past life, I worked UC on the streets for 28 years.

Forgot to mention - there's two distinct disarming scenarios to deal with - the first is actually the "snatch" where a sidearm is removed from someone's holster so quickly that it's very difficult to defend against (and that's both face to face, from the side, and from the rear...). The second is a disarm from a person's hand - and again -done very quickly- it's difficult to defend against.... Hand to hand disarming techniques all require close proximity which is why your best defense against being disarmed is simply distance (and maintaining it at all costs if you're facing a potentially aggressive, and skilled opponent..). At least that's what we taught all our officers...

Never forget that the simplest disarming technique when a gun is holstered is a simple all out assault with no warning against an armed opponent who's sidearm is holstered... If you're knocked down or unconscious you'll be losing that weapon and things will go downhill from that point.... Once again, distance is your friend in a potentially violent encounter (no matter how capable and trained you are) - the good guys don't always win so distance is an imperative in conflict situations - unless it's time to go "hands on".

I once taught a brown belt TKD that disarming a person who knows how to retain a handgun is best left to professionals. He did a demonstration for a class in HS, and I (also in the class) volunteered to be the "gunman." We arranged for my pistol (6" Colt Trooper MkIII) to be in school in the principals care until needed. I had some primered .38 cases for effect. He squared off, I did the typical "dumb crook" pose, then when he started his roundhouse kick , I simply stepped my right foot back, brought my upper body with it, pulled the Colt to my side, and watched his foot sail by as I pulled the trigger. Had it been real, he'd have been a eunuch, at best. . Everyone's eyes went , and I turned to the class and said " And that's how NOT to disarm someone". He was fuming. I later offered to teach him how to do it right....I had been my Dad's training partner on disarm/retention for about two years at that point.

You couldn't do it today....(This was in 1981) They'd lock the building down when the primer went off. We did have a concerned teacher pop his head in and check on things...and I'm surprised our teacher didn't have a heart attack. I had to go back to the Principal's office anyway to store the gun. I got one day in school suspension, but I told the Principal why I used a primered round and sabotaged the TKD demonstration, and he agreed with me in principle. That kid was a hot head, he later challenged 4 Marines fresh out of Boot. His GF talked him out of it.....

brownie0486 said:

I've trained others all across the US in disarms in my h2h/defensive edged weapons courses for the last decade.Picked up the skills back in 80 at SIONICS counter-terr training, Powder Springs, Ga.

What you see in the vid and next two took 5 minutes to learn from the mentors. Had to turn around and disarm them after the 5 minute one on one lesson. Physically easier than it looks, it's mostly having the mentality that you can take control of your environment with the skills you possess, not the physicality of the disarms.

Click to expand...

As the "victim" in this video I can vouch for the disarm's effectiveness.

Seek the services of an instructor who has the knowledge to impart, and can teach it, safely, if you really think it's something you must know.

Yes, it can be taught. The question is whether the "student" is willing to learn it, and ingrain it to the degree that it can be done without having to stop and think about it, with little or no "warning".

If it's a "sequence", the loud noise heard might be accompanied by a sharp pain (or your visual sense going black?). if it's a fluid and subconsciously accessed movement and flow of technique, and the stars and events aligning in your favor isn't a bad thing to have happen, it can work.

Of course, getting your hands on the gun/gun hand, without being shot, is only a part of making it work.

The lesser skilled and experienced (and alert) your attacker is, the better off you might be, too.

Action usually beats reaction, granted, but people generally don't realize how much they telegraph of their intentions (eyes, posture, preparatory body shifts, etc), including intended movements.

Getting close to the weapon, either gun or knife, also puts you within arm's (and leg's) reach of the attacker. Sometimes surprise and skill (and some degree of luck?) works, and sometimes horsepower and meanness (the attacker's desire to seriously injure or kill you) may make the difference.

I've never had to disarm someone of a gun, other than in training ... but I've avoided being stabbed slashed at close range by someone seriously intent on wanting to hurt me. It's fast, and even if there's initially talking involved (by the attacker), if you have to think about it, you're probably behind things in the OODA Loop, as visualized and being used by your attacker.

This is one of those things where the mats the students are sitting on in a training class ought to have little bites taken out of them (by the butts of the seated students). It might be one of those "one mistake" things some people think are easily learned and retained. Recurrent, realistic practice (properly structured and supervised!) isn't a bad thing.

FWIW, one of the first times I faced a live blade was when I was doing some dojo-hopping in the early 70's, looking to visit some notable dojo's (for their eclectic training practices, at times). The first night I was there, I was paired up with a much larger "opponent" (red belt in that system), and imagine my double take when the "knife" he was given to use was an actual fixed blade knife, with what looked like masking tape along the edge. Nobody else in the student line up thought it was at all usual (or dangerous). Kept me on my toes. No, I didn't practice "disarming" the fellow, but resorted to "complete immobilization" techniques. Tough dojo. Tough students. Tough times, too. Interesting experience. Happened maybe 6-8 years before that one guy really tried to gut me with a similarly large fixed blade knife.

Here are a couple of knife disarming techniques I thought were interesting.

brownie0486 said:

I've trained others all across the US in disarms in my h2h/defensive edged weapons courses for the last decade.Picked up the skills back in 80 at SIONICS counter-terr training, Powder Springs, Ga.

What you see in the vid and next two took 5 minutes to learn from the mentors. Had to turn around and disarm them after the 5 minute one on one lesson. Physically easier than it looks, it's mostly having the mentality that you can take control of your environment with the skills you possess, not the physicality of the disarms.

Click to expand...

The video actually illustrates what is wrong with such disarming techniques. That technique may work...provided the shooter is holding the gun that close to the victim with the barrel touching him. In most situations, the shooter will not be that close & the same technique may result in the victim getting shot.

Shaq said:

The video actually illustrates what is wrong with such disarming techniques. That technique may work...provided the shooter is holding the gun that close to the victim with the barrel touching him. In most situations, the shooter will not be that close & the same technique may result in the victim getting shot.

Click to expand...

Post 11 addresses your concerns perfectly. Work within the parameters you are presented with, including distances encountered. Nothing wrong about practicing at various distances, including one stuck in your face or chest.

Do people KNOW what range/distance they can affect a disarm even remotely reliably through training? In my own case, once the gun is further than 3-4 feet from my body, it's no longer a disarm solution, and falls squarely on another response.

Disarms may not be a viable option for everyone. It requires speed, concentration, training and the WILL to make the move under duress.

I don't know anyone who teaches disarms as a 'sure thing.' They're last-ditch, last-chance techniques when the only alternative is certain to be worse.

That said, it's a tool in the toolbox; better to have than not, and all that.

Larry

DT Guy said:

I don't know anyone who teaches disarms as a 'sure thing.' They're last-ditch, last-chance techniques when the only alternative is certain to be worse.

That said, it's a tool in the toolbox; better to have than not, and all that.

Larry

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There are those who would be robbed at gun point who wouldn't contemplate attempting a disarm. Here's what the mentors had to say about it [ former OSS guys/ paraphrased, of course ]

"As long as the muzzle is pointed at you, you are theoretically dead. Whether intentionally or otherwise, if the trigger is pulled, you're shot. Car backfires and he reacts by pulling the trigger, you're shot. He's so nervous he inadvertently without intentions to, pulls the trigger, you're shot. So, get the muzzle off your body, take charge of your own destiny, do NOT leave it in the hands of the criminals and their good graces to not shoot you even if you cooperate..

That training served well for 28 years working the streets, resulting in two real world disarms. I'll not stand idly by and allow someone to muzzle me with a firearm. The mindset to succumb to the scumbags wishes and comply isn't in the cards

brownie0486 said:

There are those who would be robbed at gun point who wouldn't contemplate attempting a disarm. Here's what the mentors had to say about it [ former OSS guys/ paraphrased, of course ]

"As long as the muzzle is pointed at you, you are theoretically dead. Whether intentionally or otherwise, if the trigger is pulled, you're shot. Car backfires and he reacts by pulling the trigger, you're shot. He's so nervous he inadvertently without intentions to, pulls the trigger, you're shot. So, get the muzzle off your body, take charge of your own destiny, do NOT leave it in the hands of the criminals and their good graces to not shoot you even if you cooperate..

That training served well for 28 years working the streets, resulting in two real world disarms. I'll not stand idly by and allow someone to muzzle me with a firearm. The mindset to succumb to the scumbags wishes and comply isn't in the cards

Click to expand...

The "kill or be killed" mindset is tough for some to grasp. As is the idea that if a gun is drawn on you there's nothing you can do.

I'm no expert, I have novice to intermediate training, but if someone's got a muzzle on me I'm going to do something rather than nothing.

Good Ol' Boy said:

The "kill or be killed" mindset is tough for some to grasp. As is the idea that if a gun is drawn on you there's nothing you can do.

I'm no expert, I have novice to intermediate training, but if someone's got a muzzle on me I'm going to do something rather than nothing.

Click to expand...

Excellent

Good Ol' Boy said:

The "kill or be killed" mindset is tough for some to grasp. As is the idea that if a gun is drawn on you there's nothing you can do.

I'm no expert, I have novice to intermediate training, but if someone's got a muzzle on me I'm going to do something rather than nothing.

Click to expand...

GENERAL GEORGE S. PATTON, JR.:

"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."


There's a reason he won battles....


Larr y

I've had much disarming training from the likes of Krav Maga which I've been in for a while.

But, as SouthNarc once said, 1 1/2 steps is about it as for practical disarming range. Outside that range chances go down real fast.

And the best disarm I know of is a .45 hole in the head, just about bottom of nose level. That tends to do the trick at most ranges.

Deaf