Reversing Barry's Executuive Order Banning Surplus Imports

Arkansas Paul said:

I can't speak for Acera but I don't think he meant any offense with the "don't be a snob" reference. At least he didn't mean any more than you did when you basically said that anyone who would buy an SKS isn't a legit gun owner.

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That's not what I said. I like the SKS. I own a Bulgarian model.

Here's what I actually said...

rfwobbly said:

A wide-open repeal would allow the Chinese to dump millions of junk SKS copies on the market. This would not be helpful to anyone that's a legitimate gun owner and would give the anties more than enough reason to scream.

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I'm against the Chinese dumping (I even emphasized the word "dump" for you) anything on the American market to unlawfully kill competition, which kills American jobs.

Please don't put false words in my mouth.

Again, people have the choice to buy them or not.

The Chinese dump all kinds of inferior products on the U.S. and we have the choice of buying them or buying better quality.

I don't think the government should decide what we even have access to.

And I fail to see how them selling us inferior SKSs has anything to do with American jobs. How does you buying a Bulgarian over a Chinese model cost American jobs?

22-rimfire said:

If I were Trump, I'd write an executive order which nullifies all Obama orders since he was in office. Then review what was done and if something was good, replace it with a new order.

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Gee, I've been recommending that kind of procedure with respect to all Federal laws written since 1791. Well, 1792 anyhow.


I'm not signing this one so nobody will know who posted it.

I'm against the Chinese dumping (I even emphasized the word "dump" for you) anything on the American market to unlawfully kill competition, which kills American jobs.

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Well how about we just let them sell them, legally, instead of dumping them illegally? That way they won't be unlawfully doing anything.

And I'm not sure if the Chinese make any junk SKSs. The ones I've shot and handled we're quite nice. Or were you saying you're afraid they'll start making junky copies to sell, or dump, here?

Please don't put false words in my mouth.

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The words you actually used indicated that "legit" gun owners would not be harmed by bans on military surplus foreign-made guns. That seems hard to take as an acceptable thing to say to all of us here who purchase, own, and love foreign surplus firearms.

I think that if y'all want Big T to reverse any of BO's executive actions you'll have to begin sending letters, phone calls and emails to let him know what you want. Otherwise, how will he know you want these M1s and SKSs?

As for me, I'm not holding my breath, but I would be pleasantly surprised if he does reverse some of those EAs. I can remember when Big T was a registered Democrat, close personal friends of the Clintons in favor of a HIllary presidency, and invited them to his latest wedding, and that he was very vocally on board the assault weapons ban. Maybe the tiger has changed his stripes and he became a conservative. After all, I was a Democrat a long time ago. When I was 21.

Color me skeptical.

"Barry's executuive order banning surplus imports" is for pikers.
-George H W Bush implemented a far-reaching import bans, specifically the "assault weapons" ban
-Bill Clinton shut down both Russian and Chinese imports (admittedly, the Chicoms deserved that one to a degree, by illicitly moving machineguns to Triad gangs stateside), banned a large number of semi-auto shotguns, and got nearly the whole Cobray/MAC product catalogue declared NFA
-George W Bush implemented a ban on "assault rifle" barrels, which is why parts kit barrels are now torched or drilled horribly
-Obama banned some AK builds, some beater M1 Garand junkers, and a specific (if popular/common) ammunition loading. Smallest of small potatoes.

Were he actually inclined to be pro-actively pro-gun as he's claimed since around three years ago, Trump could have his Attorney General issue a memorandum on day one, declaring that the term "sporting purposes" which appears in all of the above import bans be interpreted to include all "lawful recreational purposes." Right now it's left up to the AG and ATF to decide arbitrarily what they personally (or rather, what the president personally) 'feel' are sporting purposes, despite the fact they not only lack any knowledge/experience when it comes to firearms sport, but a very obvious axe to grind as far as making the interpretation as narrow as possible.

With a sporting purposes interpretation expanded to all lawful recreation, or even all sanctioned recreation, no firearms could be banned and the above restrictions would instantly be made useless, as well as 922r and even some state-level bans. You can use any gun imaginable for target shooting, and almost any gun imaginable for a three-gun competition. And frankly, this is how the law would have been applied all along from a position of good faith, instead of as a way to punish arbitrarily. When there are lawful recreational activities that can be performed with any gun, and a multitude of national shooting organizations willing to create competitions suited to weapons of any class, there can be no non-sporting firearms.

TCB

barnbwt said:

declaring that the term "sporting purposes" which appears in all of the above import bans be interpreted to include all "lawful recreational purposes."

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Why the "recreational?"

"All lawful purposes" should suffice, no?

Terry, 230RN

Before it was stolen I had a Norinco 1911A1 clone. After I put an adjustable rear sight on it it was a tack driver. I fired at least 1,000 rounds through it without a hiccup. So don't try to say all Chinese import guns are junk.

barnbwt said:

"Barry's executuive order banning surplus imports" is for pikers.
-George H W Bush implemented a far-reaching import bans, specifically the "assault weapons" ban
-Bill Clinton shut down both Russian and Chinese imports (admittedly, the Chicoms deserved that one to a degree, by illicitly moving machineguns to Triad gangs stateside), banned a large number of semi-auto shotguns, and got nearly the whole Cobray/MAC product catalogue declared NFA
-George W Bush implemented a ban on "assault rifle" barrels, which is why parts kit barrels are now torched or drilled horribly
-Obama banned some AK builds, some beater M1 Garand junkers, and a specific (if popular/common) ammunition loading. Smallest of small potatoes.

Were he actually inclined to be pro-actively pro-gun as he's claimed since around three years ago, Trump could have his Attorney General issue a memorandum on day one, declaring that the term "sporting purposes" which appears in all of the above import bans be interpreted to include all "lawful recreational purposes." Right now it's left up to the AG and ATF to decide arbitrarily what they personally (or rather, what the president personally) 'feel' are sporting purposes, despite the fact they not only lack any knowledge/experience when it comes to firearms sport, but a very obvious axe to grind as far as making the interpretation as narrow as possible.

With a sporting purposes interpretation expanded to all lawful recreation, or even all sanctioned recreation, no firearms could be banned and the above restrictions would instantly be made useless, as well as 922r and even some state-level bans. You can use any gun imaginable for target shooting, and almost any gun imaginable for a three-gun competition. And frankly, this is how the law would have been applied all along from a position of good faith, instead of as a way to punish arbitrarily. When there are lawful recreational activities that can be performed with any gun, and a multitude of national shooting organizations willing to create competitions suited to weapons of any class, there can be no non-sporting firearms.

TCB

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You are very misinformed on your first point. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was a departing gift from the Democratic Congress in 1994. It was signed by Clinton not Bush.

July 8, 1989 Import ban on assault weapons, not Clinton's domestic stupidity, though it was the inspiration for the 94 ban.

230RN said:

Why the "recreational?"

"All lawful purposes" should suffice, no?

Terry, 230RN

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If broadened beyond "sport" it is probably regulatory overreach vulnerable to court challenge (assuming standing can be found for *not* banning something). The law on the books still says "sporting purposes" until we change it.

In reality, there is no distinction for us; any kind of gun or ammo can be used in competition, ergo these bans are moot if interpreted broadly.

Again, the proper fix is legislation, but in the meantime this is an easy way to nullify these laws ahead of their repeal (prove to the public that no crime wave will result). That's assuming he's serious about being pro gun.

TCB

Kaeto said:

Before it was stolen I had a Norinco 1911A1 clone. After I put an adjustable rear sight on it it was a tack driver. I fired at least 1,000 rounds through it without a hiccup. So don't try to say all Chinese import guns are junk.

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Until a few years ago, a Norinco M1911 was my frequent carry gun. I bought it from a friend.

The small internal firing mechanism parts were garbage, but the main components (barrel, slide, and frame) were first rate. The grips were made from some iffy polystyrene like plastic, which melted to my hand the first time I cleaned it. I replaced the grips with Eagle fake ivories.

After the internals were replaced with American parts, it was 100% reliable, with everything from 200gr. LSWC bullseye loads, to 200gr. Hornady TAP JHPs, to 230gr. ball, to 117gr. Aguila "IQs". I only sold it because I needed money to pay my rent in Obama's booming economy.

Deanimator said:

Until a few years ago, a Norinco M1911 was my frequent carry gun. I bought it from a friend.

The small internal firing mechanism parts were garbage, but the main components (barrel, slide, and frame) were first rate. The grips were made from some iffy polystyrene like plastic, which melted to my hand the first time I cleaned it. I replaced the grips with Eagle fake ivories.

After the internals were replaced with American parts, it was 100% reliable, with everything from 200gr. LSWC bullseye loads, to 200gr. Hornady TAP JHPs, to 230gr. ball, to 117gr. Aguila "IQs". I only sold it because I needed money to pay my rent in Obama's booming economy.

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I never replace the internals, but I did put on a set of Bianchi wrap around grips with the finger scallops.

22 rimfire wrote:
If I were Trump, I'd write an executive order which nullifies all Obama orders since he was in office. Then review what was done and if something was good, replace it with a new order.

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Why would you do that?

Issuing or withdrawing an exective order requires quite a bit of work by each agency impacted by the change as policy statements have to be changed, manuals have to be updated and reprinted, etc. If you are going to withdraw all the executive orders and then put a bunch of them - like the executive order banning use of prolonged solitary confinement of juveniles in federal detention facilities - back again, it would waste a whole bunch of taxpayer money. Do the review FIRST and then get rid of the executive orders that need to be withdrawn.

Kaeto said:

I never replace the internals, but I did put on a set of Bianchi wrap around grips with the finger scallops.

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When I got the gun, the hammer "followed". I took the mainspring housing off to look at the leaf spring and it was BRIGHT red with rust. The hammer kept following until all of the parts were replaced with high quality items.

The quality of Chinese or other imported guns is *kind of* missing the point...

There are at this time a laundry list of restrictions impacting us --primarily-- on imports. Pretty much all of them are obviously operating in opposition to the restrictions & understanding of our domestic policy, though not quite unconstitutional*. But nearly all of them have some sort of exemption in the form of these 'sport' clauses so as to maintain the illusion of not directly attacking our domestic rights to commerce in firearms, in order to make them both politically palatable as well as more legally justifiable (more the latter). However, this commonality contains a potentially fatal flaw, in that those in charge of enforcing these regulations have wide latitude in their interpretation for enforcement; what was a strength that allowed an administration to unilaterally clamp down on "assault shotguns" and make agreements with foreigners to embargo their own citizens, may also be their undoing.

"Sporting purposes" being interpreted narrowly as it is now;
-Stops us from getting 7n6 as well as a zillion other milsurp pistol ammo with steel/iron/etc cores
-Stops us from getting SVT40s, SVD/Dragunovs, and a zillion other Russian/etc milsurps & commercial guns
-Stops us from getting USAS shotguns, SPAS-12s, and a zillion other "assault" shotguns
-Stops us from getting new-production Norinco, Daewoo, Valmet, and other semi-auto "assault" rifles
-Stops us from getting surplus and new-production pistols that are too small (Glock 380) or too light (FN Five-seven) or otherwise don't meet the 'points' system requirements
-Stops us from getting demilled parts kits with intact barrels, adding an average 50% cost to all private or commercial kit-built guns, and making it outright impossible to procure barrels for many types of rare or obscure historical firearms
-Creates a lot of expense, trouble, and legal risk by requiring both manufacturers & private citizens to adhere to the 922r parts count requirements (another 25% or so on top of the barrel)
-Provides inspiration as well as justification for anti-gun politicians to pursue local copies of these federal import regs (i.e. there's a reason so many ban-state laws list the obscure STGW57 by name, and it's because they copied the Bush I ban list in its entirety)
-Likely impedes the sale and development of new technology in sight systems (thermal, night vision, electro-optic, AI aiming systems). This is firmly in ITAR territory, and those are much, much, much more complicated regulations; but I suspect that a lack of 'acceptable civilian purposes' makes it easy to lock these technologies down as necessary to our global strategic position.

If "sporting purposes" were formally interpreted to include all lawful behavior, all these restrictions disappear outright. Even if it is only extended to all recreational behavior, or even all sanctioned competitive recreational behavior, the diversity of gun sports will make these laws limiting the import or fabrication of large classes of weapons, unlimited. And since they govern the act of importation, and the act of manufacture, it is unlikely a subsequent administration could retroactively apply their new, hostile regulations onto firearms already in existence. Certainly not in the numbers that would proliferate in a few short years.

I say we implore president Trump to shove this interpretation right down the bureaucracy's throat, before he even starts trying to work proposals through congress. It will be irrefutable proof of his commitment to change on this issue, it will accomplish (temporarily) the bulk of gun rights proponents' goals, it will demonstrate that legislators & judges need not fear rolling back gun control measures out of political or social/crime concern (absolutely nothing bad will happen, same as when every other gun law has been rescinded), and it will generate inexorable momentum for more policy changes and legislation to come.

TCB

*The feds definitely have the authority to mess with imports this way. Tariffs, embargoes, and restrictions of all kinds relating to these. However, part of the crisis precipitating our nation's revolution was, literally, an import ban on assault weapons. The Crown sought to shut down all importation of powder (often foreign sourced in those days) as well as rifles & muskets (such as the standard-issue Brown Bess flintlock and cannon). This was done as the colonies were building and arming their militia organizations, and there was not much domestic industry producing these goods, at least compared to overseas. My point in this background, is that there is certainly historical precedent implying our government should not be manipulating import/export commerce so as to deny or infringe upon domestic civil rights. And yet, this is exactly the same stated purpose of all these "sporting firearms" regulations on imports; to deny the domestic militia access to suitable service weaponry so as to keep them at a disadvantage to regulars.

Trump's team will do what is best to enrich donald trump and themselves. you guys are waaay, waaaaay down the list. Sorry to inform you.

barnbwt said:

If broadened beyond "sport" it is probably regulatory overreach vulnerable to court challenge (assuming standing can be found for *not* banning something). The law on the books still says "sporting purposes" until we change it.

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OK, I get it now. It just irks me that self-defense is a lawful purpose* and they can't import a lot of nifty self-defense firearms --long and short. Why there'd be blood running in the scuppers if we allowed that.

I'm frankly ambivalent about the "taking awsy customer base from US manufacturers" premise. Part of my thinking runs: "The more people who get started with inexpensive foreign firearms, long or short, mlitary or civilian, the better for the domestic firearms and associated industries in the long run anyhow. Maybe even in the short run, too.

I'm willing to be challenged on that, but that's the way it looks at first glance to me.

Import restrictions are just choke points anyhow. I hesitate to use the term "infringements," though. It upsets some people around here.

Terry, 230RN

* With firearms. iin most places.

I'm frankly ambivalent about the "taking awsy customer base from US manufacturers" premise. Part of my thinking runs: "The more people who get started with inexpensive foreign firearms, long or short, mlitary or civilian, the better for the domestic firearms and associated industries in the long run anyhow. Maybe even in the short run, too.

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To be fair to our restrictive practices, the US is sort of sucking up the best arms makers like a black hole as they open, then expand, operations here so as to reach our bottomless civilian/police markets (FNH, SIG, HK, GLOCK, Beretta, CZ, Radom, Kalashnikov, basically everyone but Norinco and BSA)

So perhaps this is one of those problems that solves itself, lol

TCB

^

FNH, SIG, HK, GLOCK, Beretta, CZ, Radom, Kalashnikov, basically everyone but Norinco and BSA

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Good point. It's part of my ambivalence about that part.

Say, you suppose the populations of those countries are complaining about them moving their factories "overseas?"

Quite the contrary, many of them yearn for it, especially western Europe (absent Belgium). What's funny, is I strongly suspect that lowering our barriers to entry will only serve to accelerate the process (Radom apparently botched their first ATF import application test by leaving a vertical grip on a pistol or something). At some point, you realize your *only* customers are foreign, and in one spot, and that spot also has everything you need to operate even better than you are currently.

TCB