I need a load that is close to Hornady's 38spl lite load

My wife carries and practices with a LCR .38spcl. Even normal 38 loads were bruising her palm. She doesn't like practicing with shooting gloves because she most likely will not have gloves on when a need arises. I load her some "powder puff" loads using Trail Boss and 148g DEWC's from MBC. They shoot really nice, very accurate, just enough recoil to make it feel real. I have also used 158g SWC's and 125g RN's, but the DEWCs make nice holes that are easy to see.

In my SW637 Wyatt Deep Cover lightweight 38 I use a special load of 5.4 gr AA#2 with your Hornady 110 gr XTP. The gun doesn't weigh much and is pretty nasty with standard ammo. It's even rated +p, if you can imagine that. Dang!

edited to add that the 5.4 gr of AA#2 is right from the Hornady manual, rated at 950 fps from a 4" barrel, not my 1 7/8".

It's not all that hard to load ammo that is acceptable to the shooter. Check the Hodgdon site linked to above and load some up and try them. Only the shooter can tell you if they are acceptable. I would give W231/HP-38 a try. If the recoil impulse is too strong try a slower powder like W572 to reduce the intensity.

Are you wanting to match it ballistically, or simply produce a light recoiling practice round? Matching a 110grn to a 90grn ballistically isn't very easy - to match in recoil, you have to run ~22% slower (need to correct for powder mass difference), but then your trajectory doesn't match up. Trajectory really shouldn't matter at all for a defensive load, so I'm prone to assume you're just wanting a light recoiling load.

I developed a practice load several years ago for the Hornady Critical Defense Lite 38spcl load for my Mother-In-Law in her LCR, it's remarkable how little recoil it displays, and accuracy is great. It's a 93grn Meister LRN over 4.0grn Bullseye. If you want to add velocity, I'd have to check the book, but I want to say either 5.0 or 5.3grn Bullseye was the max listed, getting up to 1,100 fps (Lyman 49th). These loaded on my press have been more accurate than the Hornady load, in fact. Seating's a bit of a pain, since the bullet is so short, I liken it to loading 380acp, but once you figure out your case flare, it's bread and butter easy. Specs from the book say this should be 825-850 out of a 4" barrel, but out of the sub-2" LCR barrel, I'm expecting considerably less. I've been content by the burn, no unburned kernels running around, and no notable leading in the bore. Accuracy is great, and recoil is about on par with my 22WMR LCR - plus, it's actually cheaper to feed than the 22WMR, and even rivals the 22LR for cost per shot.

The 93grn Meister LRN, without casting yourself or hunting all over the internet for a supply (the meister's have always been in stock for the last 4-5yrs I've been shooting them), is probably the cheapest and easiest option to get a near-matching load to the 90grn Critical Defense Lite load. Like I said - push 5.0grn Bullseye under it and you'll get yourself within 100fps (book spec in both cases) of the Hornady published specs. I chose 4.0grn just to save on powder and reduce recoil even further.



Another pet load I use is 4.5grn HP-38 under both a Rainier Plated 125grn OR a Hornady 110 XTP. I use 5.0grn in a .357mag case under the same bullets. More recoil than the Hornady CDL load, but still very low recoiling. Velocity doesn't line up for trajectory, and recoil is a bit higher, but still a very light recoiling load with both bullets. I shoot the 5.0grn 357mag load more than the 4.5grn .38spcl load, so I'd have to pull target record to remember how the accuracy compares, but the 5.0grn HP-38 under a 110 XTP is more accurate in most of my revolvers than the 90grn critical defense.

ArchAngelCD said:

It's not all that hard to load ammo that is acceptable to the shooter.

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I agree with this in general, but it IS actually (surprisingly) kinda hard to find 1) bullets commonly in stock and 2) load data in the books which match the 90grn Hornady Critical Defense Lite load for recoil, especially without going super slow on velocity - the Hornady load is 1,200fps. It surprised me a few years ago when I started shooting it - I started getting a lot of questions about it in my women only pistol classes, so I started shooting it to get familiar with how it runs. There really isn't much on the market which compares, if anything, for factory loads, and finding sub-100grn bullets without casting your own is kinda a challenge in itself. And of course, since the bullets aren't common, load data isn't common either. So most folks are content with either more recoil or super-low velocities with a heavier bullet, like the 110 XTP. I spent a lot of time calling and talking to techs, and looking for appropriate load data. Matching 90grn pills at 1200fps with 38spcl isn't data commonly found in any manual - the only one I own which had a pill light enough was the Lyman book.

You don't have to match the close exactly. If you can generate similar felt recoil with the 110gr XTP it will make good replica load for practice.

I carry the 135gr Speer GDHP .38 Special +P load in my J frame. I replicate a practice load with the 140gr XTP bullet because if cost and availability and I can achieve very similar felt recoil.

With a replica load for practice felt recoil and POI is what you try to match, not the velocity.

To recap, you are using XTP 110gr and new Starline brass (not shorter FTX brass). The load from the Hornady book that I suggested (am using), 110 XTP with 5.4 gr AA#2, is on the upper end of that load range, giving a better shooting experience than heavier 38 Special by way of the lighter bullet. You can try reducing the load toward the bottom end to find what your wife likes to shoot, but at some point the XTP becomes a joke at too low a velocity.

Easier to change your carry load to a heavier bullet. Research has shown that for the same energy, recoil is less with a heavier bullet due to the larger powder charge needed in the light bullet. Often the lighter bullet will have more of a blast and fireball which is to be avoided. With a low pressure round like a 38 SPL I like heavier bullets that mimic the old FBI load of 158 grains. You will also find that your guns fixed sights are set up for the 158 grain bullet. Any 148 grain wadcutter load published for Bullseye use will work well for your practice. Some advocate the same bullet for everyday carry. I'd prefer them over a 110 grain bullet. Lead is cheaper then jacketed.

earplug said:

Easier to change your carry load to a heavier bullet. Research has shown that for the same energy, recoil is less with a heavier bullet due to the larger powder charge needed in the light bullet. Often the lighter bullet will have more of a blast and fireball which is to be avoided. With a low pressure round like a 38 SPL I like heavier bullets that mimic the old FBI load of 158 grains. You will also find that your guns fixed sights are set up for the 158 grain bullet. Any 148 grain wadcutter load published for Bullseye use will work well for your practice. Some advocate the same bullet for everyday carry. I'd prefer them over a 110 grain bullet. Lead is cheaper then jacketed.

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Nope! Loads for small guns have lighter weight bullets.

RealGun would you care to explain.
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Nope! Loads for small guns have lighter weight bullets.

Google free recoil and the effect of the propellent gases. Look at the acceleration effects between a light bullet and a heavy bullet. Sharp fast verses prolonged and slow. This is felt in you hand.

RealGun said:

Nope! Loads for small guns have lighter weight bullets.

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Maybe your loads do.

ArchAngelCD said:

With a replica load for practice felt recoil and POI is what you try to match, not the velocity.

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I agree with this statement - but in working with 38 practice loads for many different shooters as part of my business (sell gun, sell load development), I've not found any way to balance a matched recoil AND matched 25yrd POI for the 110 XTP and the 90grn - getting ONE of the two is easy, getting BOTH, not so much. POI at 5yrds is easily matched for virtually any bullet, but I'm a firm believer a shooter should be proficient with their carry gun at any potential engagement range.

earplug said:

Research has shown that for the same energy, recoil is less with a heavier bullet due to the larger powder charge needed in the light bullet.

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Whose research would that be? Because they've been mislead. Heavier bullets, until they start to dramatically encroach into the powder volume and limit powder capacity, will have heavier recoil.

Case in point: Ruger SP101 (29oz) with 110 and 158grn Hornady XTP's, loaded over Power Pistol - Loads taken straight from Hornady #9 as max loads for both:

7.5grn PP + 110grn XTP = 1100 fps, 3.1 ft.lbs. free recoil energy, and 10.5 fps recoil velocity
6.0grn PP + 158grn XTP = 850 fps, 3.5 ft.lbs. free recoil energy, and 11.2 fps recoil velocity

Case in point: Ruger Super Blackhawk (48 oz) with 200 and 300grn Hornady XTP's, loaded over H110 - Loads taken straight from Hornady #9 as max loads for both:

28.7 grn H110 + 200grn XTP = 1500 fps, 14.1 ft.lbs. free recoil energy, and 17.4 fps recoil velocity
23.5grn H110 + 300grn XTP = 1400 fps, 23.3 ft.lbs. free recoil energy, and 22.4 fps recoil velocity

Heavier bullets produce greater recoil.

AZAndy said:

Maybe your loads do.

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Speer Short Barrel is probably a useful example.

There are coated lead bullets in 90gr, 95gr and 105gr available from several vendors that can be used to mimic her carry ammo.

Had a friend that wanted a load for his 10 yr old son. Shooting out of a Rossi snub, 3.0 grains of HP38 with 148 grain dewc is what we settled on as accurate and lowest recoil. We tried a few.

I would practice with something like this and save the xtp's. As others have said there's a lot of data for the xtp bullets. Start at minimum with powder similar to HP38, bullseye etc and go from there.

Fatelvis said:

Working with my quick load program, it is amazing on how much the short barrel of a snubbie handicaps you, in regards to velocity. I would be curious to know what the Hornady Lite load actually chronos from a snubbie. I sure know it won't be 1200 FPS !

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Hornady and Speer Short Barrel show nearly identical load data for a 110 gr jacketed, but Speer is from a 2" barrel instead of Hornady's 4" Model 10. There are what seem minor differences in the velocities shown. It would be nice to know with some precision, but it doesn't appear to me to be cause for any real concern.

With that measurement I wouldn't use anything but .358 lead. It needs to be a little oversized to obturate.

Generally speaking two thousandths over to me is perfect, in your case you're under that. The only way to know is to try, but I wouldn't think you would have any excessive leading.

Fatelvis said:

I was looking to go with light cast bullets, but I measured my 638's throats and found they are ~.3573". I'm assuming her throats are about the same size. I'm accustomed to using .358" cast bullets, but think that they would be sized down in the throats and might lead her and my barrels. I think I'll stick with .357" jacketed bullets.

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I think the lead bullet slightly larger than the throats is ideal. The problem may come in S&W's ECM rifling. If you get leading, try adding a coat of alox to the bullets. That has been my best solution so far. You would also want to avoid cleaning your barrel to death. A little residual leading isn't going to hurt anything.