Safe to reload, or even shoot first?

This is likely to open up that can of worms.

I tumble all my loaded ammo. I don't have a reference to prove it so take it with a grain of salt but I've seen pictures from a ammo manufacturer of their ammo being polished in media. It was to much of a close up to see what it was being turned in or if it was even in anything.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/98...torture_test__UPDATE__fired_rounds_in_OP.html

This guy tumbled some ammo for 200+ hours, then examined the powder under a microscope.

It looks like a scientific method but it is not. One has more questions than answers.

1st,
Did you read the whole thread?
What questions need answers in your mind?

1stmarine wrote:
Never put live ammo on a tumbler.

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Why?

I've been tumbling live rounds for years.

Apart from the fact that the walnut media gets into the hole of the hollow points there have never been any problems. If you are recommending that live rounds not be tumbled becuase of concerns that one might be set off, it has never happened to me and even if it did, would not cause a chain reaction and would be unlikley to start a fire.

This is one of the reasons I no longer buy any Winchester ammo.

This happened to me several years ago with some hollow points. I contacted Winchester and they sent me some coupons for more of their ammo. I just bought their white box to plink with.

Contact them see what they say.

If nothing else if enough people return or complain hopefully they will up their QC.

1st marine wrote:
...the vibration could impact the structure and shape of the powder.

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I had already been tumbling reloaded rounds for years when I first heard this theory posited. I have never seen anyone advancing it cite to any tests, studies, demonstrations, scientific or even empirical data to support it. I would welcome seeing it and having a chance to evaluate the method and collected data.

After hearing the theory many times, I did conduct a small empircal study by loading some .223 rounds with IMR-4198 and Winchester 748 powder and then tumbling samples of five rounds each for 2, 4, 8 and (approximately) 16 hours. The bullets were pulled and the powder charges compared to powder from the canister visually and with the aid of a 4 power lens. No differences were noted. The cases were inverted over filter paper and tapped vigorously on the bench to express any dust that might have resulted from breakage or remodeling or the powder. No more "dust" was noted in cases that had not been tumbled than cases that had. Had the shape or length of the powder been changed, it is expected the burn rate would be altered and this would show up in differences in velocity, but all groups tested to within 3% of one another (typical results from my reloads) and with no correlation between the variation in velocity to the length of time the rounds were tumbled.

The most striking conclusion was that the rounds that came out of the media after 16 hours were really pretty.

At 5 rounds the sample sizes were too small and several variables that I judged to have small potential to impact the results were not controlled and since I was the only "researcher" it was not possible to "blind" the study, so I make no claims as to it being scientific, but it was sufficient for me to continue tumbling loaded ammunition.

I concur with win243xb, polish them manually using fine steel wool (or a chemical brass cleaner) and see if the "rust" goes away. If the corrosion was confined to the surface of the brass, they should be fine to shoot. If, after a brief polish with steel wool the "rust" doesn't polish away or turns black, it may indicate that the structure of the case has been compromised and I would salvage what I could and recycle the brass.

This is a copper alloy known as a" Red Copper" or CM2300 alloy. It is sometimes referred to as gun metal. No problem a solution of ammonia and water should remove the discoloration. I don't think CM2300 would be a good choice for reloading. It is likely to crack or develop incipient separation. Just my idle thoughts.

Through the years I have also done all sort of experiments including shooting tumbled ammunition with mixed results. I don't do that anymore.
I was thinking since this is a controversial subject why not put a set of questions together and send the note to a few ammunition manufacturers?

Something like this...

A) Are there any known adverse effects by tumbling life ammunition?
B) What are the risks associated with tumbling live ammunition?
C) How many years ammunition could be stored before tumbling and could the age have an effect on the integrity of the powders?
D) What powders and/or ammo are more susceptible to be impacted by time and other variables?
E) What is the ideal frequency and/or intensity range in a vibratory system to tumble live ammunition?
F) Is there a risk of spontaneous ignition like with military FMJ bullets for example and is this risk higher or lower than a tube fed magazine like those found in lever actions?
G) After tumbling your live ammunition "XYZ" I have observed changes in speed and inconsistencies including flat and even blown primers. This didn't happen with rounds from
the same batch that were not tumbled. Should we make the assumption that the tumbling had an effect on those rounds or is there a better method to determine this? <find and attach pictures>

Anything anyone wants to add to these questions before we contact a few manufactures?

I am not sure a maker/plant will reply to us if we ask about surplus ammo 20-30 or even 50 years old but I would think Hornady and Federal perhaps will give us some feedback.

Your thoughts?

As far as the OP's cases, it's very obvious the discoloration is due to fingerprints as they clearly show on the cases. The reason could be several things. First, and this may sound strange, but it comes from about 40 years of working with brass on an industrial basis. Has a female handled the cases? I ask this because females have a very different body chemistry......let's say.....a few days a month. This very readily causes tarnish on unsealed brass surfaces. Second, is the person handling the brass on any kind of medication? This too can cause discoloration.

The dark red coloration, in my experience, is almost certainly chemical in origin. If left unchecked it can go fairly deep into the surface of the brass. If the brass can be cleaned, try tumbling in something like NuFinish polish, because it leaves a polish-like sealer on the surface of the brass.

Dog Soldier erred slightly in his identification of the alloy. CD230 (85% copper, 15% zinc and other trace elements) is called "red brass" which is the type used in military medals and pipe fittings. It's called high brass in the industry. CD260 (70% copper, 30% zinc and other trace elements) is commonly called "cartridge brass" for obvious reasons.

1stmarine
Your question sound loaded. If I was answering I'd tiptoe around it.

How do you transport powder, ammo if it can't take vibration???? Think about it. Ammo is trucked all around the world in vehicles (mil) that will jar your teeth out. Unless you using something the size of a cement mixer (truck size) to roll them, you might have a chance in doing something. Then you have media in the mixer it cushions the fall.

medalguy said:

As far as the OP's cases, it's very obvious the discoloration is due to fingerprints as they clearly show on the cases. The reason could be several things. First, and this may sound strange, but it comes from about 40 years of working with brass on an industrial basis. Has a female handled the cases? I ask this because females have a very different body chemistry......let's say.....a few days a month. This very readily causes tarnish on unsealed brass surfaces. Second, is the person handling the brass on any kind of medication? This too can cause discoloration.

The dark red coloration, in my experience, is almost certainly chemical in origin. If left unchecked it can go fairly deep into the surface of the brass. If the brass can be cleaned, try tumbling in something like NuFinish polish, because it leaves a polish-like sealer on the surface of the brass.

Dog Soldier erred slightly in his identification of the alloy. CD230 (85% copper, 15% zinc and other trace elements) is called "red brass" which is the type used in military medals and pipe fittings. It's called high brass in the industry. CD260 (70% copper, 30% zinc and other trace elements) is commonly called "cartridge brass" for obvious reasons.

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I don't claim to be an expert in metallurgy. My back ground is primarily API & MSHA. Testing metal exposure to H2S etc. CM2300 is also used in pluming applications. API & MSHA applications are strenuous. The use of "Terms" and descriptions vary. Good luck Medalguy.

Yup, google just shows me numerous experiments which conclude tumbling loaded rounds is not a problem.
Has anyone seen an actual methodical experiment where velocity changed due to tumbling loaded rounds?

I'd say the powder looks good.
If the cases clean up with just a slight amount of attention, I'd shoot 'em, but then probably not reload 'em again.
But that's just me.

And I've tumbled ammunitions dozens of times without anything negative happening.
Again, that's just me.
YMMV

kingmt said:

1stmarine
Your question sound loaded. If I was answering I'd tiptoe around it.

Click to expand...

OK. I sent just these questions instead.

A) Is it Safe to tumble your life ammunition?
B) Since the ammunition showing tarnishing is old is there a time when tumbling is not recommended due the age of the ammunition?

I got a reply from Hornady customer service...

Mr. Meiar,
thank you for contacting us. We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammunition. The process can lead to the kernels of powder breaking down as the contact each other during the tumbling process. This break down can adversely affect the pressures generated when the powder is ignited. Unfortunately we cannot recommend that live ammunition be tumbled under any circumstances. You can attempt to wipe down the cases with a clean and dry shop towel, but depending on the severity of the tarnishing, it may be advisable to discard the ammunition in accordance with local regulations. Thank you sms

You mean I can't tumble live ammo?
Wish I would have known that a half a million rounds ago

jeeptim said:

You mean I can't tumble live ammo?
Wish I would have known that a half a million rounds ago

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Hornady technicians simply said they do not recommend it and why.
The were not specific about what powders or ammo might pose a risk and how old the ammo if that has an impact too.

I suggest that it is probably superficial external corrosion on the surface of the brass caused by chemicals in the paper of the box they were stored in. Typically, ammo boxes are made from pH neutral paper to keep this type corrosion from occurring. However, with "discount ammo" they start cutting corners anywhere they can to save a penny.

The manufacturer probably reasoned that "discount ammo" would be consumed within a week of purchase, and that the cheaper acidic paper would be adequate for short duration storage.

If you intend to keep this ammo, then tumble it with corn cob and NuFinish to once again seal the oxygen away from the brass. Then place it in plastic containers and get rid of the original paper boxes.
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