Non NFA Shotgun a bunch of silly mess

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AI&P Tactical

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All this about Non NFA Shotgun is a bunch of mess. What is the point? If you want a pistol grip shotgun get the Remington Version.* It has a Pistol grip, Speedfeed LE Forend, 18.5" Barrel and Remington LE two shot Extension. It is about 27.5" long. So you are about a 1" longer then all this ridiculous Non NFA mess and have a 6+1 Capacity shotgun. Add the fact that if you buy it before March 5, 2017 you get a $50 rebate and the gun is less then $300. Don't get caught up in all this silliness of Non NFA shotgun as this silly mess has been around since 2010. Get a gun that is perfectly legal no matter what ATF decides about the Issue.
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With the exception of breeching weapons carried and used specifically for that purpose, ALL pistol-only grip shotguns are a "silly mess." Period. That Remington is no less silly, and no less of a mess, than the Mossberg Raptor, or a Sebu Super Shorty for that matter.

Holding up one PGO shotgun while declaring another to be "silly" is a great example of unintended humor! :D

So what? Folks like the goofy things, just for messing around. If Mossberg builds this one that's a hair shorter and it can slide in through a gap in the NFA coverage (which is all grossly pointless anyhow) great! Folks will buy it because it tickles their fancy to do so.

No reason to rag on it.
 
silly you say?
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make me an offer :p
 
Sam1911 - I like the point of unintended humor as I did not advocate a PGO shotgun. So I was not holding one up to another. I stated if you want a PGO what is the point of the so called NON NFA mess when there are legal models only an inch or two longer with a higher capacity. Add that the ATF is coming out with a Determination Letter on the entire issue and those who go down that so called Non NFA road may find their selves having to get the Stamp later. One person posedt that if this occurs they will not have to pay for the stamp but I bet they will still have to go through all the paper work, and for what? A gun that is 1" shorter then one they can buy anyway. I know a little bit about shotguns and how they are used and I find little to no application for a PGO. I have built a few for customers, one was an over the road Trucker that wanted to keep it in his sleeper and a handgun was not an option because of some of the states he drove through. Another was a wheel chair bound man who wanted a compact gun that he could put in scabbard on his chair. And as you pointed out for breeching models some people might think they have a use for one. However, we did not use shotguns to breech doors nor do many of the teams today as rams and hydraulic are better. So I guess it is like you say, people like silly mess or the so called Non NFA shotgun as useless as it is would not have got all the attention it has. As for ragging on it. If anyone reads the post and realizes just how silly the entire thing is and does not waste money on such folly then pointing this out is a good thing.
 
Ok. I think that a great deal of the appeal for a lot of potential buyers is exactly the novelty of a "woah, isn't this supposed to be NFA?!?!" gun, and they like buying something that will amuse and amaze their friends (and range officers, or even a local police officer perhaps) with their seemingly illegal, perfectly legal "other firearm." Some folks find that sort of thing pretty amusing.

The fact that it's only an inch or so shorter than the older style PGO Remingtons or Mossbergs might be a surprise to some folks and might dissuade them from buying it, though. Who knows?
 
stoky,

if you lived within an hour's driving distance I would make you an offer......you might laugh at it and refuse it but I would make you and offer.

When the bullpup Mossberg 500 was shown at its first shot show (Atlanta in the way back) it had no sights at all and no front grip. My friend and I sat down at the Mossberg booth and drew up the idea for that carrying handle and crappy sights on a napkin at the table the Mossberg folks had at their booth. My friend who had recently been shooting a Thompson 1928 SMG also suggested a foregrip which the originals did not have. The Mossberg rep in charge kept the napkin. Some what later we saw a gun in a local shop with the carrying handle a with sights......go figure.

My first experience with a pistol gripped shotgun was with the Remington 870 factory folder. I quickly learned that I could stylishly miss with the stock folded at waist level or get beaten to death with the stock open and mounted on the shoulder. I found I could sort of hit with the gun by holding it with the left (support or pump) arm straight and looking over the barrel as in wing shooting. People thought it looked goofy, but I could hit out at 25 meters that way with some regularity.

I suppose as long as you keep the range down to muzzle to seven yards that the old Whip-its were OK. My manufacturer friend made a short pump for a mutual friend that could no longer use a long arm for home defense. As this was the same friend in the Bull pup story above the shortened Mossberg (both barrel and magtube which is a pain to do on a 500) the pump "handle" was a pistol grip type. He planed to use it by holding the left arm straight and actually pumping with the actual pistol grip, sort of backwards as it were.

-kBob
 
All this about Non NFA Shotgun is a bunch of mess. What is the point? If you want a pistol grip shotgun get the Remington Version.* It has a Pistol grip, Speedfeed LE Forend, 18.5" Barrel and Remington LE two shot Extension. It is about 27.5" long. So you are about a 1" longer then all this ridiculous Non NFA mess and have a 6+1 Capacity shotgun. Add the fact that if you buy it before March 5, 2017 you get a $50 rebate and the gun is less then $300. Don't get caught up in all this silliness of Non NFA shotgun as this silly mess has been around since 2010. Get a gun that is perfectly legal no matter what ATF decides about the Issue.
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That is nice gun. The only thing I would change is pistol grip to "swan neck" type found on those NFA limbo guns. The pistol grip shown beats the hell out of web of hand when shooting heaver loads. Quite painful amigos.
 
Yep. PGO shotguns are not fun to shoot IME. I just about dislocated my thumb shooting buckshot through my 590 PGO. Gave the pistol grip away the next day.
 
I never had any pain shooting buck or slugs with one, but once I decided I wanted to, and might really need to, hit something swiftly and surely mine grew a full stock.
 
Well, the advantage of angled pistol grip is that the gun can be brought easier in front of face/head allowing for better aim/pointing. We do that with tactical slugs or buck shot (lower velocity=lower recoil) which will work ok. Unfortunately there are dumb people out there that insist on using standard hunting slugs or even 3" buck shot shells for defensive purposes against two legged threats. That is where "swan neck" grip from hip or upper torso position will help spare poor palm of hand.
 
I've never had pain from shooting a vertical style pistol grip with full power buck and slugs from eye level.

However, I find the birdshead style grip uncomfortable to shoot from that position because it places my wrist at an unnatural angle.

I also have to say that I'm not a fan of PGOs with "riot length" barrels, they're too unwieldy, even a 14" barrel is a bit too long IMO.

With a sufficiently short barrel they become much handier and start to make more sense, within their limited niche of course.
 
AI&P Tactical said:
I stated if you want a PGO what is the point of the so called NON NFA mess when there are legal models only an inch or two longer with a higher capacity. Add that the ATF is coming out with a Determination Letter on the entire issue and those who go down that so called Non NFA road may find their selves having to get the Stamp later.
You keep acting like these non-NFA shotguns are fundamentally different than 18" PGO shotguns and are on some kind of shaky legal ground and the ATF might arbitrarily change their mind on them. That's simply not the case. The ATF letters regarding these non-NFA shotguns are based on clearly-established laws and regulations. These ATF letters aren't making any decisions, they're simply explaining the relevant laws and regulations and how they apply to PGO shotguns.

These short non-NFA shotguns are legally no different than 18" barrel PGO shotguns. Neither are actually legally shotguns since neither have had a stock attached. Remember that the definition of a shotgun per federal law requires a stock. These can't ever be classified as shotguns per federal law so long as they never have a stock attached. And since they aren't shotguns (or rifles), they don't have a barrel length limit. They just have an overall length limit of 26".

AI&P Tactical, think of it this way: What is the legal difference between a sub 18" barrel non-NFA PGO shotgun and a regular 18"+ barrel PGO shotgun? The answer is that there is none: Both have no barrel length restrictions since neither are legally shotguns. They're both "other firearms".
 
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Don't get caught up in all this silliness of Non NFA shotgun

So let's see if I understand your posts...

You are in the business of selling repackaged 870 shotguns. You see a Remington competitor plans to start selling a product which could take business away from you. You reach out to the ATF and say, "those people are breaking NFA rules!" The ATF employee you speak to says, "Oh sure that's definitely not OK we'll send a letter out real soon now." Based on that you begin a Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt campaign to nip this potential competition in the bud, and maybe increase the visibility of your products.

Does that about sum the situation up?

I mean, even if that wasn't what was going on, you could forgive others for inferring so when you as a seller of a competing product try to stir up roumors about how the ATF might change a standing interpretation, and encourage people to buy a product like yours instead of this competing product based on the rumors you are trying to start.
 
As discussed in a different thread, AI&P has been told by someone he knows in the BATFE that a new determination letter is being prepared and that the interpretation may change. That's not impossible.

Unfortunately, as with all rumors and warnings and predictions, even the OP himself can't know whether what he's sharing is signal or noise. It's good to understand what things could possibly happen and make your decisions with your eyes open.
 
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It would be a bit painful for the ATF to change their mind now with the current administration. I would expect heads to roll.

Also, the people who have the letter (Mossberg) from them are not a little shop who don't have a legal team. I think this was rather well vetted before they started to do this.

And, it has been going on for years from other small shops who were doing it on their own with no interference from the ATF. So, I don't think it will change. If it does, reconfig your Mossberg to a "legal" version and call it a day. No stamp needed.

Now, I admit that I would put NOTHING past the ATF but would take bets that they don't change this call.

All that said, I like the grip on the Mossberg (can go on others) much better than the typical pistol grip. While the pistol grip shotgun usefulness is questionable to me, when I go fire them I want to hold it at my hip and the Shockwave grip lets me do that better and in a more natural angle than the other grips so for me there is a little gain there.

Plus, it lets me anger a lib :)
 
Just about everyone who buys a PGO shotgun shoots it a few times, then decides it is a useless novelty and puts a stock on it. At that point, if a person had bought a 14" gun, he would need to buy an 18"+ barrel for it to be legal with the stock. Might as well buy the 18" gun from the get-go. Mossberg sells an 18" version that comes with the pistol grip and stock at the same price point as the 870 shown in the OP.
 
No, that does not sum anything up Ed. Stick to what you know something about Ed and you know nothing about my business. I turn down work every day so nothing I post is to get more work. So your allegation is untrue and an outright lie. You also insult me that I am some kind of snitch but I have fallen on my sword for my superiors multiple times in my career so keep your comments to the subject and do not make another personal unfounded attack as that is just not done on the High Road. I call on the Moderates to remove Ed Ames Post as it is a personal attack and out right slanderous against a member. Since when does the High Road allow Personal Attacks?

In fact ED. I am telling people to not go down that road. They call me to buy Virgin P receivers and 14" barrels to build one of these silly things and I tell them not to. I tell them to go to their local gun shop and buy any Remington HD and put a PGO on it then go shoot it and after they shoot it they will put the shoulder stock on it and thank me. I do not tell them to give me $260 for a stripped Virgin receiver or $220 for the 14" barrels I have for sale. So I am infact turning down their business. So you need to know the character of a man before you insult him Ed.
 
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Oh, it wasn't a personal attack at all. You have chosen to represent yourself as a business and I am calling attention to the fact that you as a business appear to have a conflict of interest. No insult given.

People generally view it with suspicion when businesses spread FUD about competitors' products. The only thing acting the injured party here will do is leave you in a bubble, not seeing the impression you are giving.

I personally have gone through enough of a PGO phase to know I won't be buying another, but that is another subject.
 
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Yes, you did in fact attack by indicating I was only posting this to sell my guns. You also stated that I contacted ATF to report others. I contacted ATF to get a clarification because people were buying virgin receivers and 14" barrel from me with intent of building the so called NON NFA gun. Your post is false and slanderous. You did not comment on the content of the topic but made a direct attack against me and assumed my agenda was to sell my guns. You also accused me of spreading rumors which I don't do. Remove your post as it has no place here or anywhere else. If you have allegations against me call me 231-690-0954 and say it to me first then you can spread such lies all you want. After you call me and say it you can even post it on my forum www.combat-shotgun.com and I will leave it there, of course with my response.
 
Yeah the unfortunate part of representing a commercial enterprise is that people assume that what you say is for commercial advantage. Especially when you are posting rumors (and yes, claiming that a government agency may change their view on a currently accepted product in a few months is a rumour you were spreading) that would discourage customers from buying your competition's products. Most businesses have learned to be very careful about not doing that for exactly this reason.
 
Jeez, calm down guys. I didn't read Ed's comment as an attack either, though he raised the point in a more confrontational way that I would have. I didn't either assume AI&P was trying to drum up business, because I've read a lot of his posts and that doesn't seem to be his style, but perhaps this is a needed clarification. Let's leave it at that and all have thick enough skins not to get upset with each other over such a minor thing. No one's honor is impugned. Period. End of story.

I contacted ATF to get a clarification because people were buying virgin receivers and 14" barrel from me with intent of building the so called NON NFA gun.
"So called" gives the wrong impression here. These ARE non NFA regulated Firearms until and unless the BATFE actually does reverse their standing letters on the subject which have stood for about 6-7 years now.

If they do, then AI&P's report will prove prescient. If they don't, then it will be just another rumor like so many others. As I said, even he can't know if this thing he's heard is signal or noise until, or unless, something actually happens.
 
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