First time loading coated lead ... this normal?

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ajandrs

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I recently got a GP100 and started loading up some rounds last night with new starline brass and ACME 158gr coated SWC bullets. When I started seating bullets it felt a little weird but I didn't think much of it, but it was almost like the bullets weren't fitting quite like they should. Well then about 25-30 rounds into the session I had one that nearly stopped the case from going up into the die but I gave it a good firm stroke and it seated fine, but I could tell something was off. When I pulled the cartridge out I could see a skinny ring of lead around the case mouth, so I clearly scraped the coating off the bullet during seating.

My initial thought was that maybe the new cases weren't sized properly since I hadn't sized them out of the box, but I started doing that on every case and still was scraping some lead so that wasn't the issue. I then looked at the case mouth flare I was giving it to ensure I was flaring enough to accept the bullet. That was also not the issue, if anything I may have been giving it a little too much flare.

The bullets are supposedly sized to .358 per ACME but when measuring the bullets I saw mostly .359 with some .360. Could this be the cause and is it ok or will there be too much neck tension causing pressure spikes? I'm using LEE dies and put just enough taper crimp on it to remove the flare, but wanted to double check with you all to ensure these are safe to shoot. Used 4.8gr of HP-38.

Attached a picture of a couple loaded rounds with some of the small rings of lead that I removed from the cartridge coming out of the seating die.
 

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If you were shaving lead you need to flare the case enough so it doesn't. 0.360 may be a little large. Make sure it will fit through the throats of your gun. Other wise your good.
 
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I get a little of that with Missouri coated .45 230gn too, and I'm using Lee dies as well. There's sufficient flare and the bullets are right at the nominal .452. Must be something about the Lee seating die, but I don't know what. I don't worry about it other than making sure there isn't a lead sliver adhering to the case mouth, as that can cause feeding problems.
 
I should have mentioned that all the cartridges fall in and out of the cylinder effortlessly. I really don't think it's the flare, it's more than I typically do for my 9mm cases, if I can get back to the basement tonight I'll measure the casemouth before and after the flare. My guess was that this isn't an issue but thought it better to double check, and that the bullet diameters are the main cause.
 
If you get a chance, post up some pictures of a bullet sitting in a flared case before running it through the Seating die.

The usually culprit in these cases is not enough expansion.

I had a similar issue when I first started loading coated bullets in .38Spl cases. I took a multi-prong approach to addressing it:
1. Expand with a Lyman M-die...creates a "seat" rather than a "flare"
2. Trim all cases to a uniform length...shouldn't be a problem with new Starline brass, but measure them just to check
3. Bevel the inside of each case mouth

The above steps solved my problem and I had no scraping of coating in the next 1200 rounds I loaded. I don't know if I needed all the steps listed, but I was loading for a major match and didn't have time to evaluate each step separately.

Or....you could avoid the whole issue by loading plated bullets. That is what I do for practice ammo where I'm not as concerned about making Power Factor with my loads
 
I've had it more than once - usually it's not enough expansion, BUT the reason for that might not be the die was set up wrong, but different brands of brass are different thicknesses and belling results might differ. Had it happen three times with 24 rounds of 8mm Mauser I put together about 1/2 hour ago, and that is using many different brass, including 30-06 cut down and fireformed to 8mm Mauser. ;) End results are always the same down range.
 
9mmepiphany said:
If you get a chance, post up some pictures of a bullet sitting in a flared case before running it through the Seating die.

The usually culprit in these cases is not enough expansion.

I had a similar issue when I first started loading coated bullets in .38Spl cases. I took a multi-prong approach to addressing it:
1. Expand with a Lyman M-die...creates a "seat" rather than a "flare"
2. Trim all cases to a uniform length...shouldn't be a problem with new Starline brass, but measure them just to check
3. Bevel the inside of each case mouth

The above steps solved my problem and I had no scraping of coating in the next 1200 rounds I loaded. I don't know if I needed all the steps listed, but I was loading for a major match and didn't have time to evaluate each step separately.

Or....you could avoid the whole issue by loading plated bullets. That is what I do for practice ammo where I'm not as concerned about making Power Factor with my loads
Click to expand...
^^^that and check your crimp. You really want to avoid scrape make sure the crimp is not starting before the bullet is fully seated. Basically no crimp, just straight wall to remove bell and pass plunk. A little more fine tuning is needed to load coated bullets.

If you can it's really easier to seat and crimp separately.
 
Wreck-n-Crew said:
If you can it's really easier to seat and crimp separately.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention this and endorse it wholeheartedly.

Because I usually seat and crimp in separate steps, I overlooked checking the die if doing both in one step. I have seen folks who have started their crimp before the bullet is fully seated...very ugly
 
I'll have to take another look at the seating die, I set it up exactly as instructed for .357mag and didn't do the extra part to perform a crimp in that die, but that does sound like a pretty possible cause. I'm using the separate factory crimp die for the crimp. The resistance is as soon as the case mouth gets to the die though so it's like it's rubbing / scraping lead throughout the entire seating stroke. I wonder, Ill also look at the flare, I wonder if I have TOO much flare and that is catching the edge of the die as the case enters the seating die. The results don't really show any damage to the case mouths so I doubt that, but still something else to look at.

I'll try your suggestions and post back with some pictures. I'm also going to try and put a flared case up in the seating die without a bullet on it to see if I get the same resistance.
 
Chamfering/deburring the ID of new cases will help eliminate bullet shaving during seating/crimping, as will proper die body adjustment/timing.
With seating and crimping as separate operations you will experience way less shaving too.
Works for me,
:D
 
BTW they are a little big especially at .360" . I size mine to .358". They still fit in the cylinder chamber?
 
When I started using MBC 200 Gr SWC Hi-Tek plated bullets in my 45 ACP I had a few cases shave off a little lead as you have shown. Chamfering the case mouth solved everything.
 
ajandrs said:
The resistance is as soon as the case mouth gets to the die though so it's like it's rubbing / scraping lead throughout the entire seating stroke. I wonder, Ill also look at the flare, I wonder if I have TOO much flare and that is catching the edge of the die as the case enters the seating die
Click to expand...
Feeling resistance that early could well be indicative of too much flare...which would be driven in by the die body, which could also cause shaving
 
ditch the lee seating die. the bullet diameter is too big for that die. try a rcbs seating die.

luck,

murf
 
Tilos said:
Chamfering/deburring the ID of new cases will help eliminate bullet shaving during seating/crimping, as will proper die body adjustment/timing.
With seating and crimping as separate operations you will experience way less shaving too.
Works for me,
:D
Click to expand...
Yup, knock the sharp corner off the inside of the case mouth and it will help reduce shaving.

But also check some of the other suggestions as well.
 
Flare a case. Measure it, set a bullet on it, eyeball, it etc. If it looks like it will be OK, figure you're good. Then run the case with no bullet up into the seater being careful not to crimp at all and see if that decreases the flare. If it does, the seater is the problem. If it doesn't, despite looking ok with a bullet sitting on it, the flare needs to be increased.

I tried some coated in 9MM a few years ago, didn't have any problems, but I don't remember what they measured.
 
Do the bullets have a crimp groove? I've seem some powder coated bullets without a crimp groove and you'd need to adjust the dies differently for those. I've had similar problems with 9mm when the cases weren't expanded enough for the slightly larger diameter lead bullets. A Lyman M expander die fixed this problem.

For what it's worth I always seat and crimp revolver bullets in the same step. Assuming the bullets have a crimp groove and the dies are correct you should be able to crimp the brass right into the groove as the bullet finishes the last 1/16 of the stroke. That's the way my all dies and the 20+ revolver bullet molds I own work.
 
Now that I look at the pic in the OP it looks more like brass shavings than coating. That's not unusual with new Starline brass and an overzealous crimp. The bullets are seated a hair too deep as well. I like to chamfer and deburr new brass like that. The sharp crimp ledge is doing it for you. Set the OAL a hair longer and ease up on the crimp. It also looks like you are using the FCD for pistols the way the bright spot is the length of the bullet. Stop using it. If you want to crimp in a second step (Not necessary in this application), then get a roll crimp die or another seater and take out the seater stem.

index.php
 

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Hey guys, sorry it’s taken me a couple days to get back to you, the flu plowed through my house over the weekend and we’re all just now getting back to normal. So thanks for all the responses, ideas, and suggestions! There are quite a few comments regarding seating / crimping so I want to clear that up … my seating die is not setup to perform a crimp, I’m using the Lee FTC die after the seating die to perform the crimp.

Last night I ran down to the basement real quick to test my “too much flare” theory and it proved to be correct. I ran a sized case up into the seating die (no bullet on top) and it moved through the die without any problems. I then ran that same case through the expander die and then moved it over to the seating die and just as I expected, it hung up as it entered the die. That’s all I did last night because I still felt like crap, still do to some degree, but my next step will be to reduce the flare until I can get it into the seating die without any issues.

I’m not convinced that will completely resolve the issue however, because like I said the diameters of the bullets are larger than they should be but hopefully it’ll be a good start. I could chamfer the case mouths, so if that’d be a quick and easy fix then I could do that pretty easily on my case prep center. I'll also try walkalong's suggestion of measuring the flare before and after going through the seating die to see if it's removing some of the flare.
 
9mmepiphany said:
If you get a chance, post up some pictures of a bullet sitting in a flared case before running it through the Seating die.

The usually culprit in these cases is not enough expansion.

I had a similar issue when I first started loading coated bullets in .38Spl cases. I took a multi-prong approach to addressing it:
1. Expand with a Lyman M-die...creates a "seat" rather than a "flare"
2. Trim all cases to a uniform length...shouldn't be a problem with new Starline brass, but measure them just to check
3. Bevel the inside of each case mouth

The above steps solved my problem and I had no scraping of coating in the next 1200 rounds I loaded. I don't know if I needed all the steps listed, but I was loading for a major match and didn't have time to evaluate each step separately.

Or....you could avoid the whole issue by loading plated bullets. That is what I do for practice ammo where I'm not as concerned about making Power Factor with my loads
Click to expand...

Perfect answer, not enough case flare, causing you to cut lead while seating.

The M die really is the key. I stopped using regular expander dies for my pistol rounds awhile back. One of the better choices Ive made for reloading gear. Beveling case mouths might be overkill, as the M die will flare it enough for you, but thats up to you I guess.
 
I had exactly the same problem with 9mm Acme bullets. I wound up solving it by turning out the seating die not three turns, as Lee recommends, but FOUR turns, from where the die touches the shell holder. Try pushing in a flared case into the seating die by hand, not with the press. You'll feel a lot of interference, at least I did when I used three turns.
Before that, I tried a little flare, up to the maximum, about 0.012. Didn't help at all.
I'm also using the Lee Factory Crimp die and use the seating die only for seating.
My bullets now seat perfectly and they feel great going in. No more cuts at all.
 
Got back down to the bench tonight and did some fine tuning with the expander die and I think I got it right where it needs to be. Still enough to accept the bullet well enough, and it slides in and out of the seating die with no interference on the 6 rounds I made up real fast. I really didn't think I had that much flare on it at first but compared to where it is now it was definitely excessive. Should be all good now though I think, thanks for all the help guys!!
 
Walkalong said:
The bullets are seated a hair too deep as well.
Click to expand...

You are correct, good eye! I pulled the load data I used off Hodgdon's website and their listed COL was 1.61" but when I had gotten down to my bench I couldn't remember and grabbed a manual off the shelf which listed 1.59" and that' what I used. Next batch will be properly set at that crimp groove.
 
ajandrs said:
You are correct, good eye! I pulled the load data I used off Hodgdon's website and their listed COL was 1.61" but when I had gotten down to my bench I couldn't remember and grabbed a manual off the shelf which listed 1.59" and that' what I used. Next batch will be properly set at that crimp groove.
Click to expand...
If you can see a 0.02" difference you have great eyes.

The OAL listed in the manuals is useless to you when loading revolver ammo unless you use the same exact bullet, same exact brass and it's trimmed to the same exact length. You should be using the manufacturer's supplied crimp groove. That is the correct place to crimp that bullet. It's been a long time since I've measured the COAL on a revolver cartridge.
 
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