What powder is this?

Slamfire said:

Does it have a mustard taste, or a pepper flavor?

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If it's H414, it will have a nice, piquant after-dinner flavor, kind of like Palmolive.

I've had really good luck with both AA4350 and H4350 in 7x57 with 139/140 gr bullets. One of my 7x57s has a 20" barrel and it absolutely hated Remington green box but loves PPU 139 gr. It also does well with 140 gr Ballistic tips. I just wish it had a longer barrel because it's losing about 200 fps to my other one. My other one is a Mexican mauser w/ a 24" barrel that eats up 120 gr BTs and 110 gr speer TNTs. It doesn't do as well with the heavier bullets, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to find an accurate load with the heavys.

Matt

Just a thought, but with the short barrel you may want to move towards faster powders with the short barrel. Typically, you're gonna use less powder so that matches up with the relatively low amount used with the factory loads.

I looked on a burn rate chart. The 414 was #206, the 4350 was about #216 IIRC.

Like many people have said, you cannot re-create a factory load. You can however, create one that shoots as well if you are willing to put forth the effort. You may have to try other bullets, powder, primers and brass, but it can be done.

Dug around and found my notes. My load was 52 grains of AA 4350 which is .4 under the Hornady max. 139 gr. Interlock. Velocity for 10 shot average was 2843. Didn't record the temperature.

All I can say is that the powder in your pic is the form called 'flattened spherical'. So-called 'ball' powder grains can be pretty much any shape. Your stuff also looks like it's double base, for the little that's worth.

The same powder will give the best velocity whether the barrel is 18.5" or 26". All of the powder that is going to burn is converted to gas before the bullet has traveled more than an inch or two down the barrel. If you do a 2" or 75" barrels, it gets different but for rifle length barrels and rifle-speed powders, the rule applies. I'd go slower to something like H or IMR4831. The downside with an 18.5" barrel? Muzzle blast. Not only is the muzzle closer, but slower powders tend to have greater muzzle blast. I loaded up some 7.62x54R with H4350 specifically to "enhance" the already impressive muzzle blast from my M44s and M38. It worked quite nicely.

Matt

Newtosavage said:

Well it's good to know I've been doing it the right way all along.

I take very detailed notes, and no other cannister powder I've tried can come close to the velocity of the Remington factory load under a 140 grain bullet, and certainly not with just 44 grains of powder. I've matched the factory velocity with my hand loads, but it was with 48-50 grains of powder (IMR 4350, 4831, RL-19) - basically stuffing the case full and compressing the load. How they achieve the velocity they do with just 44 grains is beyond me.

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This may sound like a silly question, but it's worth asking here: have you actually chronographed the factory ammo to see what velocity it attains in your gun, or are you just trying to match your load to what they have written on the box? The reason I ask is because difference in barrel length can make a big difference in velocity.

Regardless, as others have said, there's a difference in powders between what we buy in a canister and what the big companies throw in a cartridge. It isn't that one is better than the other, it's just that one isn't a commercially available product you can find on the shelf.

Newtosavage said:

At 18.5" barrel, I need all the fps I can get out of a round.

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Why? What is the bullet doing that you don't like? What are you trying to make it so that the factory does & yours won't other then go faster?

It's about bullet delivering a given amount of energy into a target & hitting the mark to me. As far as speed goes off course I want it to shoot as flat as possible as long as it doesn't concern the other two factors.

If a bullet is traveling to fast it will expand more & I may not get the penatrating effect I need while going to slow may cause it to potentate to much delivering the energy into the ground.

I really don't care how fast Jon's bullet is going.

I will echo what has been said by Walkalong and kingmt above. If the bullets go where you want them, more velocity doesn't fix anything, it just wastes powder. An animal doesn't care about the speed of the bullet that kills it and a piece of paper even less so. Velocity doesn't always equal accuracy.

You can't tell anything about a powder except the colour and shape of the grains by just looking at it. Even in Florida.

Sunray said:

Even in Florida.

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I like that. I might still it. Lol

Newtosavage said:

I've been trying for a few months now to match the performance and accuracy that my Ruger 7x57 rifle enjoys from the plain-old "green box" Remington ammo, to no avail. Someone suggested I pull a bullet and see how much and what kind of powder is in it. I finally bought a bullet puller (what a darn handy tool! Should have had one long ago.) and did just that.

Here's the powder I got out of it - 44 grains of this stuff.

Hodgdon lists H414 as a "ball" powder for the 7x57, and it's very close to the IMR 4350 I've had good luck with. From what I've been able to find online, this looks a lot like H414.

What do you think?

​

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It's usually hard to find exact powders that Factory ammo uses because they tend to get their own blends and load according to batch data. For the 7/57 Mauser though you can't go wrong with 4350, W760, or H414. Those three make some of the absolute hardest hitting, accurate and reliable/consistent loads you can get for that action, so there really isn't much need to look elsewhere from those three. Do some ladders with whatever bullets you like for your rifle with different charge weights and OALs and record what the rifle likes and doesn't like with whatever weight bullet your using and then once you find the "winning" combination for your intended purpose load up a bunch. If your going for a hunting load, it's hard to beat H414. My cousin and uncle each use their 414 hand loads with a 160gr (I believe) for deer with outstanding results. (Minimal tracking needed because they tend to just drop.) For accuracy/target loads I believe they stick with the 4350 and the W760 I believe is their recipe for duplicate "old fashion/military" loads.

That's where I'd go. I'll bet the factory load is slightly quicker than H414 ...

I agree on trying to duplicate what you like. Faster and clean barrel, no big flash. Too bad it's so hard to find... But, now you have all the baseline numbers, and test powder is only a lb at a time

It's black powder silly. Next question?

Newtosavage said:

LeverEvolution looks very close as well...


Hodgdon's data puts 44 grains at the starting load for 140's, so it could be that. Of course Nosler data for the 7x57 is hotter, and lists 45 grains as the starting load for H414

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Look at their seating depth. Bet you find the difference.

Newtosavage said:

Well it's good to know I've been doing it the right way all along.

I take very detailed notes, and no other cannister powder I've tried can come close to the velocity of the Remington factory load under a 140 grain bullet, and certainly not with just 44 grains of powder. I've matched the factory velocity with my hand loads, but it was with 48-50 grains of powder (IMR 4350, 4831, RL-19) - basically stuffing the case full and compressing the load. How they achieve the velocity they do with just 44 grains is beyond me.

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^^^^^^^^^^ if you matched the velocity, was it acceptable enough for accuracy? If not, did you play with seating depth? If so, where's the problem? If you're matching speed and accuracy, then worrying about the extra powder is just headaches better spent on bigger problems.

If you still can't get that velocity you can move up to something in the range of IMR 4064 or IMR 4895.