Mixing old powder with new?

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Duster340

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Hey Folks,

I'm disassembling a box of 44 Mag reloads (my own) that shot well in a 44 SBH I use to shoot alot, but are not as accurate in my 629 which is now my primary plinking and hunting 44mag. Plan is to reuse the components using the data I've worked up for the 629. Question is, any issue dumping the old H110 powder that I loaded approximately 2 years ago into a 1lb container I opened last week? Or should I just put the old powder in a separate container until I load up my next batch? Guessing it's OK to mix but figured I'd ask here.

Thanks in advance!
 
I'm really of two minds on this. One side (probably the sensible side) says dont ever mix two powders from different cans even if from the same type and lot, much less different lots.

On the flip side, i wonder how much of an issue it really would be if its not alot of powder added and you mix it up well.
Reason being is every time i start a new can of powder i drop back a few grains then come back up....that should take into account any changes in the powder due to the additions correct?
 
I don't mix powders of the same type.

My rationale is if you keep doing this you'll always have some "old" powder mixed with the new. If I did this since I started reloading I'd undoubtedly have Unique, Bullseye, or any of the powders I've used for years with some "old" powder still there.

Will it make the new powder deteriorate faster? Don't know. It will make it harder to trace problems though.

JMO
 
I have mixed same powder from one 1# container to the next. Always within a year or 2 of each other. Not sure if I should be or not, but it seems reasonable to me.
FWIW when I buy powder I write the date on the container, and when I open it I mark it as well. That way I know what I have and how old it is.

-Jeff
 
I mix them when I get to the tail end.

For example, Im using TiteGroup to load 9mm, and I get down to under a pound in an 8 pound container, I will just mix the leftovers in with the new 8 pound container, shake well, and continue loading. My loads are generally very mild, so if the next can burns a little hot, Im still good to go.
 
Smokeless powder is not magic. If you blend lots, you will achieve a (not necessarily linearly) interpolated set of properties.

Provided that's what you want, blend away! Keep in mind that if you blend 90/10 good/deteriorated, you've probably ruined the whole lot. Degradation of the retardant coating isn't a small change, it's a BIG change.
 
How much powder are we talking about. I try not to mix different lots of powder. And I try to use load data to the appropriate year the powder was made. What I do when I have a small amount is load that up till it's not enough to load another round then add the new and continue. You may end up with 1 round that is a mix of lots. I normally set it aside for fouling. Now if you at max load you need to back off a couple of 1/10's and work backup with the new lot.
 
I mix them when I get to the tail end.
I do as Kaldor does - at the "tail end" of a container. But mixing the powder from 2-year old handloads back in with a new container of powder? I don't know man. I wouldn't do it. Especially not with H110. I already find H110 and WW296 unpredictable enough, without risking what edwardware wrote - "Degradation of the retardant coating isn't a small change, it's a BIG change."
 
Thanks for all the input everyone, it's much appreciated. Based on that, I think I'll play it safe and keep the old powder separated from the fresh stuff. Guessing IF I reuse it I'll use it for some starting level H110 loads.

Thanks again!
 
Doesn't hurt anything to mix like powders. Even of different lots. Mind you, how 2 year old powder has been stored matters. Still won't hurt anything if you mix it. Smokeless powder is not an explosive. It just burns quickly.
 
Hey P5, about 75 rds. I thought about continuing to shoot them, but since I really have been shooting my newish 629 almost exclusively these days, I figured I'd feed it what it likes. Another factor is that my 39yo SBH is still near and dear to me, and is also a tack driver with my "pet" 629 loads. So I'm gonna load a poop load of the one load both guns like and have at it! ;-)

Be well
 
Guessing IF I reuse it I'll use it for some starting level H110 loads. . .

Whenever I find myself wondering. . . I do an experiment!. Build a pair of ladder loads, and shoot over a chrony.

I've proven out a 40+ year old can of W540 vs modern HS6 with this method. I observed no measurable difference in velocity from minimum to +P in 45 ACP.
 
Your loading Data sheets does not discriminate between "Lots". If there were any liability issues each page would be like a Chicago Phone Book. Most powders have a Shelf Life of 35 years. If you have a concern the manufacture can give you a projected Life on your powder. If any powder has an "Acrid Oder" fertilize your lawn with it.:thumbup:
 
I cannot see a problem if same type, same lot. However, there might be unknown complications between different lots made by different vendors. Accurate Arms powders were variously made by the Chinese, Czech's, and probably some other manufacturer's. I just don't know if the burn rate changes when you mix Chinese AA2520 powder with Czech AA2520. I do know the powders are not physically identical.

Now, lets say your H110 is decades old. Gunpowder deteriorates, it is breaking down the day it leaves the factory. The lifetime is unpredictable between lots, which is why first world militaries spend so much money monitoring, testing, and scrapping old ammunition. The shooting community is largely unaware of this, but just Google “Insensitive Munitions” and drill down for gunpowder lifetime.

This is an example of information whose implications have been mostly ignored by the shooting community. IMR 4007 was introduced in 2007, and yet, some lots have deteriorated to the point they are auto combusting:

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/2/product-recall-notice-imr-4007-ssc-powder/


by SSUSA Staff - Wednesday, September 2, 2015

Product Recall Notice: IMR 4007 SSC Powder
IMR Legendary Powders has announced a product safety warning and recall notice for IMR 4007 SSC on the six lot numbers listed below. Find your lot number on the side of your bottle as in the below photo.

•10130139

•10131139

•10429139

•10430139

•80425139

•80426139

IMR has received reports that this particular powder in 1 lb. and 8 lb. containers may have become unstable due to possible rapid deterioration. Use of this product from these lot numbers shown on the enclosed label may result in spontaneous combustion, fire damage or possible serious injury. IMR suggests that anyone who has this product should cease using it immediately! Fill the powder container with water which will render the product inert and safe for disposal.

Contact IMR directly for more information:

IMR Powder Company, 6430 Vista Drive, Shawnee, KS 66218, email [email protected], imrpowder.com, call 1-800-622-4366 or 913-362-9455 and fax 913-362-1307.

You mix old gunpowder with new, the lifetime of the whole has been changed, probably reduced. So, because of the unknown lifetime of old and new, I don’t recommend blending different lots, though I must say, I have done so and to date, nothing bad has happened. But I am not doing it anymore.
 
I have a keg with 12 lbs of H110 and W296 from three different lots. All mixed well and not poured in layers. I have no concerns.
 
Most compounds etc have an expiration date on the container if it is critical. I have never seen a warning on a container regarding the "Lots"? Powder or any propellant would be vulnerable to litigation ? I think this data would be on containers?
 
This is an example of information whose implications have been mostly ignored by the shooting community. IMR 4007 was introduced in 2007, and yet, some lots have deteriorated to the point they are auto combusting:

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/2/product-recall-notice-imr-4007-ssc-powder/

It appears to only apply to six lot numbers, not the entire product production. Probably some manufacturing error in all the coatings and additives that go into making a canister powder.

I personally have shot up lots of 50-60 year old ammo without issues (other than the occasional dud primer) and plenty of 30+ year old reloads (again, a few dud primers were the only issue). There have been recalls on the powder I use the most (Unique) but none for the lot numbers I've had (unless I shot it up before the recall came out :) )

Since I've "standardized" on my loads for a very long time, I rarely empty my powder measures. When I run out and switch to a new lot of powder, I just refill the measure containing the last of the old lot with the first of the new lot on top. No intensional mixing. Never had an issue, but then I'm not pushing maximum loads.
 
I can't tell you what to do, only what I have done. I rarely mix old powders with new powder but only because I don't want to chance adding a deteriorating powder to fresh powder.

When mil surplus rifle powders were plentiful and inexpensive if you ordered 4x 8lb jugs you could get no hazmat fee shipping at some vendors. Much of the time the lot numbers were the same but not always. I would always open all 4 and mix the 32lbs of powder well, especially when the lot numbers were different. This way when I worked up loads with that powder I wouldn't have to do it every 8lbs. I never ever had a problem and that was with none canister powder. Commercial powders are much closer in performance. That was just me, you do what you think is safe.
 
I believe in sensible safe reloading. But many are getting more nervous than a hungry mare in fly time. It seems every forum on reloading results in "Oh My" don't do that!! Reloading is a very safe and enjoyable sport. Just follow the instructions provided by every powder company. Enjoy.:thumbup:
 
I wouldn't do it with powders over 5 years old, but under that would have no problem with it. Truth be told, 10 or 15 years would likely be fine, but there is a chance one is going bad. I have powder 30 years old that looks and smells fine, but I had the better part of an 8 pound jug of rifle powder go bad somewhere between 10 and 15 years.

Many people put the last little bit of X powder in the new jug of X powder and mix it up. Plinking ammo? Go for it. Match ammo? Not me, unless they are both the same lot. YMMV.

Here is some surplus .308 from 1982. In 2014 I noticed a few rounds showed crud/corrosion around the neck where the bullet meets the brass. I started pulling it apart a few weeks ago. About 15 to 20% of the powder showed deterioration, with about 10% showing green corrosion. Yea, 32 years old, and we don't know how it was stored before I got it, but it doesn't always take that long, especially in heat.

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Most compounds etc have an expiration date on the container if it is critical. I have never seen a warning on a container regarding the "Lots"? Powder or any propellant would be vulnerable to litigation ? I think this data would be on containers?

If it there was a simple answer to a simple question, life would be so much easier. Like human life expectancy, everyone here expects to live forever, but you know, I knew a number of fine people who did not make it past forty.

DoD dumps about a billion dollars of munitions, which includes small arms, artillery shells, grenades, torpedoes, rockets, etc. ,

Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx


Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.


* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.


Early in the last century the storage lifetime of smokeless powders was considered to be 20 years or less:

Army Ordnance Magazine, June 1931, page 445 says:

Smokeless powder constitutes one of the greatest hazards from a storage standpoint, due to the fact that it is subject to deterioration and at the best cannot be expected to have a life greater than about twenty years…….Master samples of all lots of smokeless powder are under constant observation in the laboratories at Picatinny Arsenal. Should any of these samples indicate rapid deterioration, notification is given at once, and steps are taken to use this deteriorating material within a very short period, if possible, or else withdraw it from service.”

Heat is the worst enemy of gunpowder:

]UN manual on ammunition inspection.See section 7.3.

Surveillance and in-service proof - the United Nations

http://www.un.org/disarmament/conva...20-Surveillance_and_In-Service Proof(V.1).pdf

[/URL
]
 
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