Knife VS GUN, inside 21 feet, Instructor Zero and Doug Meraidia

Mythbusters did something similar called "Bringing a knife to a gunfight". They showed with in a certain distance (21' I think), the knife can win.

The key words are 'can win'. If the gun welder has a quick holster and is well trained to shoot either hip or retention, the '21' foot rule shrinks. If the knife welder cannot move fast, the '21' foot rule shrinks. Or vice versa.

And of course, if one picks up clues the knife welder is about to attack and acts accordingly, then that '21' foot rule shrinks. Just lots of 'if's', 'ands', and 'buts'.

Deaf

Given that a reasonably fit male armed with an edged weapon can close a 21' distance within 1.5 seconds and inflict a fatal stabbing or slashing wound before an armed person (OPEN carrying, presumably with a fast, non-Level 2/3 holster) can draw and fire only one shot center mass ... Don't take chances. FBI (and other law enforcement agencies' research subsequent to Tueller's studies indicate the fatal distance could be out to 27 or even 30 feet ...

Dead men can kill.

You may smoke a round through a knife attacker's heart and he may continue fighting for 10 seconds more.

Fire fast and reasonably accurately...stitch the rounds up to the head, if possible.

Run & get stuff in between anyone with a knife. I've held a steel garbage can in a doorway with a foot (&gun) while dealing with a suicidal man. In that case, I "had" to be there, but for normal folks...run to cover.

The most important takeaway IMO is to move, preferably to the side or diagonally. We call it "getting off the X". I never thought about rolling or going to the ground. If you can do so as well as the instructor in the video, it's an effective technique.

I agree with the moving part, or getting off the X, but you'll NEVER catch me intentionally going to the ground in a defensive scenario unless it's hand to hand.

Dropping back on the ground even with a gun in your hand is NOT a good idea. Rolling around like shown in the video is stuff of movies.

To me, the video seemed overly tacticool, but to each their own.

Action vs reaction. If the knifer starts the attack, he has already set a course of action and is in motion. He's not going to announce his intentions.
The shooter has to:
Recognize that he is being attacked.
Recognize that his gun is needed.
Place the gun in his hand from the holster.
Target the attacker.
Shoot the round.
The whole thing goes into the dumper for the shooter if he doesn't hit the brain, spinal column or supporting structure of the pelvis.

Depending on the shooter's targeting training, shooting center mass may not immediately stop the attack until the rounds cause enough blood loss to cause muscle dysfunction, or loss of consciousness.

A determined knife attacker can prevail in an attack on a person with a gun.

FWIW, Dennis Tueller (creator of the Tueller Drill) absolutely hates it being called "The 21 Foot Rule", but the description is so prevalent that he knows it can't be stopped.
(From a video interview with him on one of the many DVDs I was sent when joining ACLDN.)

Old Dog said:

Given that a reasonably fit male armed with an edged weapon can close a 21' distance within 1.5 seconds and inflict a fatal stabbing or slashing wound before an armed person (OPEN carrying, presumably with a fast, non-Level 2/3 holster) can draw and fire only one shot center mass ... Don't take chances. FBI (and other law enforcement agencies' research subsequent to Tueller's studies indicate the fatal distance could be out to 27 or even 30 feet ...

Click to expand...

Did the drill in the academy HUNDREDS of times = the knife WON [ in that he was able to cut /kill / maim the shooter ]
Do as y'all like,I know the outcome of such a attack.

If you study these studies, you realize the following is what really applies:

Outside of 21 ft, the average result is in favor of the shooter. Inside 21 ft, the average result is 2 dead men.

In my experience, talking to witnesses of actual blade attacks - hardly anyone -victim included... ever even saw the knife that was used to cut or stab. Many times the victim didn't realize they'd been hit until after the incident... All of which makes the Tueller drill, although a great training routine, not nearly as valid as most would think who haven't had a lot of experience on the street.

What I taught my officers - and emphasized daily... was that distance between you and a potential assailant is critical. Our trainers in the Tueller drill (armed with nothing more dangerous than a rolled up newspaper) always did their best to talk their way closer to their intended officer in training before starting their charge (and anyone allowing someone with a blade to close that gap rarely ever was able to draw and fire even a single shot -using an empty weapon, of course) before the trainer was on top of them and the "blade" was in full use - slashing, cutting, and stabbing...

If you're faced with someone possibly armed with a blade, keeping your distance and watching to see their hands was everything. Our most successful officers (in service training mostly) in confronting a possible knife attack were quick on their feet and actually looked like a defensive end in football as they back-pedalled away from a charging or approaching subject possibly armed with a blade... Remember that choosing your ground before any confrontation may be a life saving tactic as well. Confrontations in restricted areas give all the advantages to a subject armed with any kind of knife or stabbing instrument... Allowing yourself to get into a close quarters problem with anyone armed with a blade is very bad business, period.

JohnKSa said:

And to demonstrate that a person with a knife does pose a deadly threat to a person armed with a gun even well beyond arms reach.

Click to expand...

And that is all it shows. The exact range where it becomes deadly depends on many factors.

But do take it seriously if someone produces a knife at any range and acts 'menacingly'. I'd draw my gun right then.

Deaf

ALL officers are trained over and over "if you cannot see the HANDS,assume and believe and PREPARE to find them armed".

That is why all officers learn the command " show me your hands ".,its that simple and that scary.

I've noticed a lot of people tend to think knives and guns are like laser-tag. If you get hit first you "lose." Not the case at all with either, just because you have been stabbed or shot, doesn't automatically mean you're dead (and certainly not immediately "stopped"). So, the "winner" isn't the one who tags the other first with the implement, the "winner" is the one who injures the other so that they cannot continue. This will probably take multiple strikes (stabs, shots) to vulnerable body parts with lateral movement to minimize the damage being done to you until it is over (one way or another).

I don't know if these security guards had guns (I'm guessing not given the response), but does anyone here think they could really get a gun out fast enough in a similar situation? Well inside the "21ft" that's so adorned.





It would behoove everyone to have some additional skills beside just planning on drawing your firearm.

Action will always be faster than reaction. Not to mention how few people actually train under stress. Like the knife guy said, anyone with sense isn't going to show their limited range weapon until they are using it on you.

Good video Good Ol' Boy. It is a good visual representation of a realistic violent situation especially regarding distance and speed.

I will note that the first security guard basically got stabbed the moment it started from a mental preparation standpoint (almost a forgone conclusion). He clearly was not worried about this guy and did not consider him a real threat. When jacket boy puts his hand in his pocket-no reaction, continues to just stand there talking, arms at side. No interview stance, no attempt to control distance.

If he had a mindset that jacket boy could be a deadly threat, could have a weapon in his pocket, and could attack at any instant...the body language and posture would have been a lot different. Then, mentally primed, he would have moved at the jacket-boy's first initiation of movement and bypassed the surprised react stage.

When I used to work security and deal with unstable types every day, I had a "2-track" mind. 1 track would be doing the verbal judo de-escalation thing while the other track was focused in the physical realm-non-verbal cues. These tracks were separate, I didn't allow them to share info. So, if the suspect says "ok, I'll leave" track 1 acknowledges that, but track 2 does not. Physically, though he said he'd leave, if he hasn't yet, I'm still focused on and expecting the physical attack (until they are physically gone).

Well said, Strambo... I found on the street that learning all the cues (while still remaining relaxed so that I wasn't escalating whatever problem was at hand....) wasn't easily learned - it took years - and I was still learning the day I retired out. Guess I had someone upstairs looking out for me. I certainly did change how I dealt with problems on the street over time - nothing beats lessons learned the hard way (in my case at any rate...).

The original video was a bit silly.

Drawing and shooting because you hear someone running up behind you?

Good Ol' Boy said:

I don't know if these security guards had guns (I'm guessing not given the response), but does anyone here think they could really get a gun out fast enough in a similar situation? Well inside the "21ft" that's so adorned.





It would behoove everyone to have some additional skills beside just planning on drawing your firearm.

Click to expand...

Now what if one of the attackers had a gun in his pocket instead of a knife? Bet he could have shot both of them dead before they reacted to. See it isn't the knife thing, it's letting people get to close. At such ranges as the video a good boxer might have cold cocked them to. When at hand shaking range you don't have to be good, just fast.

Keep that in mind when encountering unknown contacts.

Those 'guards', or bouncers, needed a roped off area for people approaching the club/restaurant so as to keep a distance. That and maybe Asp batons or pepper spray if not guns.

Deaf

Situation awareness as taught by Copper is good to remember here. Distance is always your friend.