question on carry condition, EXCEPT 1911's

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mjmcgrso

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Gentlemen; please do not take offense to the way I'm about to pose this query. I know that some of you will want to preemptively guide me towards the multitude of threads already containing this topic, or more accurately seemingly containing this topic. I am starting this because after having "googled" it and read a million to maybe a million and 3 forum threads on what I'm apparently asking, it inevitably spins out of control onto a debate over cocked and locked as it pertains to a 1911. That is NOT what I'm asking here.
Nor am I asking about whether anyone carries with one in the chamber, or safeties on or off. I am also looking to avoid the matter of whether or not you'd manually cock a hammer fired gun upon drawing or just fire in DA mode... none of which I'm interested in discussing. Those points are moot.

My query is very specific and I have not seen any other forum even touch on it.

It's whether or not it's considered a safe, or unsafe practice to CARRY a DA(sa) revolver, or likewise a NON 1911 STYLE hammer fired semi-auto with the hammer cocked and safety off.

A DA revolver cocked has no manual safety. It's ready to go with a breath on the trigger. That's why my contention is that would not be a safe way to carry a DA revolver because there's nothing preventing an unintentional discharge upon something inadvertently tapping that trigger. Likewise, a NON 1911 STYLE hammer fired DA/SA semi auto with a decocker safety lever should not be carried cocked, and safety off.... obviously if the safety was on on the models I'm specifically referring to, it would then be decocked by default, because it too could be set off with the slightest of unintentional taps of the trigger.

My fear is, that given the very nature of the specific types of guns that I'm trying me best to keep this discussion on course with here, if one were to carry them cocked, and say be on a firing range and as do so many of my students, be hunting around for their flapjack leather holster that's closed on them with their shirt tails overlapping and tucked into the holster, they're likely to tap that trigger and send a hot round straight down their calf into their feet.

I have done dry demonstrations with 3 of my guns (Springfield XD40, Taurus 65 and Bersa mini 40) where I show that no matter what you do with the XD, tapping the trigger without the palm safety depressed and the trigger completely pulled rearward, it will not fire. HOWEVER, upon cocking the revolver and the Bersa, a mere tap with a pencil eraser released them both...
One last point to address on that note: both the Bersa and revolver in fact have transfer bar type mechanisms requiring that the triggers not only be released, but held rearward for the duration of the firing cycle. Thats said, my contention still holds true if either were to be released by way of an object like a belt loop, pocket knife, ...whatever object may get forced against the trigger to not only release it, but keep it there long enough to facilitate the aforementioned hot round down the leg.

I realize my approach and presentation could be taken out of context and exploited for a flame job of major proportions, however, I'm truly only looking to engage in productive dialog that leads to safe handling and teaching techniques for students in the long term, not becoming an internet inferno. It's about the guns and people's lives, not how poorly I write an inquiry.
Thank you.
 
I suspect that you wont get flamed but you wont get very many responses either because I doubt that many will disagree with you - in my opinion you've stated the obvious.
 
I am suspicious of any gun handling method that requires one to handle a specific gun in a different way than another similar gun. Muscle memory being what it is, at some point you are going to screw up when handling a gun that works differently than your normal gun if you don't always do the same thing.
 
Under what circumstances would the average person be using a gun other than their regular gun that they've practiced with for self defense?
 
Under what circumstances would the average person be using a gun other than their regular gun that they've practiced with for self defense?
how about you want to shoot someone else's gun at the range?

or someone asks you to show them how to use their gun?
 
how about you want to shoot someone else's gun at the range?

or someone asks you to show them how to use their gun?

Then I'd assume that since there would be no real sense of urgency you'd take your time and use the new weapon correctly. If you read my post carefully I asked under what circumstances you'd need to switch guns during a self defense situation, I specified a self defense situation because under any other circumstance you should have enough situational awareness to act in a safe and methodical manner. Only under the stress of a self defense situation could I imagine that your muscle memory would be the dominant factor in handling a weapon. At the range I'd expect everyone to take their time and concentrate on safety first.
 
Hoping I've not violated any of your constraints;
IMHO, no, it's not safe to carry anything (excluding revolvers) with a round in the chamber and the safety off and "safeties" sticking out of the trigger don't count.
 
Thanks for taking me seriously guys. You've all validated (as one of you stated) the obvious.

But let me take a second to qualify why I asked, as some of you tossed in a variable question of your own.
The reason for my asking wasn't to factor in any changes to what anyone was carrying routinely. In fact it was to address what someone would do as their routine.
I'm an assistant RSO on a training range, and in my tenure there it has become one of my peeves when I see (again, other than 1911 types) guys with external hammer semi-auto's holstering w/o decocking. There are the exceptions which have a safety that can be engaged w/o decocking, but as I stated, I was specifically referring to those that were like a DA revolver in that if cocked, the only safety is keeping your finger out of the loop, so to speak.
I brought it to the attention of the senior trainers, who own the company I assist, and they didn't quite grasp where I was I was coming from on the matter, stating that you don't need to decock because the "other safeties" took care of it. I desperately tried to explain my concern but to no avail. I even evoked the response from the owner that he carries a revolver, cocked. I looked at him in horror and said, you carry a DA revolver...COCKED? He acknowledged. It kinda left me mortified, but also frustrated because I knew my concern for safety in this area was simply being misunderstood, but it still left my blood running cold every time I saw a few of the newly licensed students qualifying for the first time, holstering cocked semi's that did not have another form of manual or automatically engaged safety (ala XD)
Thankfully none of the few fellows qualifying with revolvers ever holstered while still cocked. But the issue still remains, and all of the balance of you lent 100% validity to my concern that no, carrying a firearm such as I'm referring to cocked is a good idea on any planet under any circumstances, whether that's how you train with them or not. I have to contend in my heart of hearts carrying a cocked DA revolver is just a ID waiting to happen.
If anyone else out there can convince me otherwise, please come forward and enlighten us.
Thanks again for taking this query seriously. I appreciate the input greatly.
 
I am suspicious of any gun handling method that requires one to handle a specific gun in a different way than another similar gun. Muscle memory being what it is, at some point you are going to screw up when handling a gun that works differently than your normal gun if you don't always do the same thing.

Nope, just talking about using one's own firearm routinely, not swapping for show and tell at the range.
 
Just to elaborate, the reason I was so painfully specific in my posting was that among the million other "carry condition" forum threads I found, no matter what the question posed (for example: "do you carry with a round in the chamber?") they all eventually started attracting irrelevant responses that did not have anything to do with the question. I figured what with those million other threads I didn't want to be accused of needlessly starting another... hence my awkward presentation to stay on point here. That was all.
 
My DA/SA semi-autos one can remove the mag and the gun won't fire. So load the gun and after racking the slide(safety off) you are cocked and ready to fire then eject the mag.
 
Unsafe. Doing so or attempting to holster a handgun in such a condition would be considered a major safety violation anywhere I have worked in the military or as a contractor.
 
My DA/SA semi-autos one can remove the mag and the gun won't fire. So load the gun and after racking the slide(safety off) you are cocked and ready to fire then eject the mag.

ok, prime example... the mag dropping point notwithstanding as it's irrelevant to the matter, but ok, so what you're saying is that devoid of any other safety device (I.E. trigger gizmo, palm safety (XD) non decocker hammer block etc) you would holster and carry a cocked (hammer back, not talking strikers here as they too have a blocking mechanism defeated by their long trigger travel) pistol?

In other words, the only thing preventing that gun from discharging is your hope and prayer that nothing nudges that trigger?
How is that remotely safe on this or any other planet.
I know I'm getting cocky, but DANG that is UNSAFE as all hell!
 
I brought it to the attention of the senior trainers, who own the company I assist, and they didn't quite grasp where I was I was coming from on the matter, stating that you don't need to decock because the "other safeties" took care of it. I desperately tried to explain my concern but to no avail. I even evoked the response from the owner that he carries a revolver, cocked. I looked at him in horror and said, you carry a DA revolver...COCKED? He acknowledged.



IMHO you need to leave that range and never go back.
 
Unsafe. Doing so or attempting to holster a handgun in such a condition would be considered a major safety violation anywhere I have worked in the military or as a contractor.
The great thing about being a free range Redneck is I don't have to shoot at a "range" or put up with someone's interpretation of "safe"
 
I looked at him in horror and said, you carry a DA revolver...COCKED? He acknowledged.
That's... I can't say what that is here on the High Road. I wouldn't even say it inside the house where my cat might hear me. Excuse me, I need to step outside for a moment.
 
No I wouldn't carry cocked with safety off but I would leave a gun in the condition I described for short periods as long as I'm in possession of the mag.

Ok, I see your point now... I was just a bit lost for a second because I've never considered carrying without the mag in. Bad enough some opt to carry sans round in chamber necessitating taking the slide to get up and running if the SHTF, but I'd never consider fumbling with my mag to get up and ready, but I concur with the safety aspect of your option whole heartedly, yes.
 
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