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IlikeSA

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You're seated on this train car as either a single person or a married person with or without children, when 50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing/beating people. You are armed with your regular CCW (its not necessarily California, for the purposes of the scenario). Please list the scenario as it applies to you.

Part of developing strategies and tactics is placing oneself in a scenario and making the decision in advance. Please play out some alternative scenarios, and discuss the best options.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php

For me: I typically carry a .357 magnum revolver with 12 extra rounds for reloads. I am married with no children, and my wife does not carry.

Option A: comply and hope that we don't get hurt.
Option B: draw and start shooting.
Option C: attempt hand to hand
Option D: run and hope my wife can keep up
Option E: run, and try to cover my wife's retreat
Option F: brandish and see if they will run, if not, start firing at my attackers.

I don't think there is a good option here. What are other alternatives and what would you do?
 
Okay, analyze it like this:

Option A: comply and hope that we don't get hurt. This may work, but you have given up any chance you have of influencing the outcome.
Option B: draw and start shooting. Only if your life is immediately threatened -- otherwise, you have no justification for using lethal force.
Option C: attempt hand to hand. You have to be kidding!!
Option D: run and hope my wife can keep up. Do you have a clear line of retreat? If not, where will you run?
Option E: run, and try to cover my wife's retreat. Same as Option D, above.
Option F: brandish and see if they will run, if not, start firing at my attackers. This is the most reasonable approach. Let them see the consequences of continued aggression before using deadly force.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
Option B: draw and start shooting. Only if your life is immediately threatened -- otherwise, you have no justification for using lethal force.
Click to expand...

Yes, but in a confined environment with no ability to run and 50-60 attackers, disparity of force should start to play a role.

I agree with Jeff. Brandish and hope they run, and if they don't, start shooting. Start with the closest (or maybe the most dangerous if some have firearms) and keep shooting until they either all run away or you are overrun.

If you're considering these scenarios, you may want to consider carrying something with more ammo like a Glock 19 and a few mags. I doubt you'd even be able to reload your revolver in that situation before being overrun (unless you have a lot of practice speed reloading a revolver).
 
The only solution I could see is draw and hope that's enough to dissuade them. If not, sure you are outnumbered, but criminals don't usually want to stick around once they meet resistance, especially in the form of bullets.
 
You have at least four different scenarios there; Single, Married, with children, without children. These directly affect the decision, at least in my case.

Even with that figured out, there are too many variables. By an exit? Middle of car? Moving? At station? Are they armed? With what if so?
 
entropy said:
Even with that figured out, there are too many variables. By an exit? Middle of car? Moving? At station? Are they armed? With what if so?
Click to expand...

I assume he wanted us to use the scenario in the article. No knives or guns, just a high number of assailants striking people that didn't comply. Train was stopped, one of them were holding a door.
 
Assess who is the leader (usually not hard to figure out) and smoke him first if they get near me. Ask who's next, if they aren't running already. Other option: Draw and point it directly at anyone (of them) standing in my way out as I head towards the exit. Fire as need to clear exit. Like the OP said, there's no good ending to this one.
 
Too many unknowns to assess. The article reads like it was a bunch of teens using verbal threats and a few smacking some folks around. No mention of weapons YET.
 
Telekinesis said:
Yes, but in a confined environment with no ability to run and 50-60 attackers, disparity of force should start to play a role.
Click to expand...
If your life is threatened. If they never approach you, but simply engage in horseplay with other people, you're not justified in using deadly force.
Telekinesis said:
I agree with Jeff. Brandish and hope they run, and if they don't, start shooting. Start with the closest (or maybe the most dangerous if some have firearms) and keep shooting until they either all run away or you are overrun.
Click to expand...
As I said, that's the best choice -- simply drawing may make them back off, and then you won't have to shoot anyone. If you DO have to shoot, you'll have your gun in your hand.
 
IlikeSA said:
You're seated on this train car as either a single person or a married person with or without children, when 50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing/beating people.



?
Click to expand...
Since you state they are " robbing AND beating people ".

Either you comply and pray for the best,or you stop the ATTACKS as fast as possible.

In most states the use of DPF against a mob that is attacking is justifiable.

And do note,that if you have the option of video taping this = better in a court if and when it gets there.

Also note that a "mob attack" is considered deadly force in most courts.

btw ---- are they armed,and if not are any others fighting back ?.

IF at all possible I would get my wife in front of me and RETREAT ----- IF possible.

If not,she will be as safe as I can make her !.
 
The purpose of the original posting is to place yourself into that situation, just the way you are (married, single, with children, etc), with your EDC. I gave a link to the article to show that it can happen. I am curious to see what others make of the scenario, and what they would do.
 
IlikeSA said:
The purpose of the original posting is to place yourself into that situation, just the way you are (married, single, with children, etc), with your EDC. I gave a link to the article to show that it can happen. I am curious to see what others make of the scenario, and what they would do.
Click to expand...

IF the reply was directed at me ?.

My answer is exactly the same as above.

My edc is a Glock 23 and 2 spare mags .can of Mace and a few blades.AND if traveling even a few miles from home = a BUG and spare ammo for that too

And knowing the law as I do,and situational awareness it would appear to me that my answer stands as it is.
 
On BART, and on the commuter trains and buses where I live, citizens will not be carrying lawfully.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
If your life is threatened. If they never approach you, but simply engage in horseplay with other people, you're not justified in using deadly force.
Click to expand...

Horseplay? I thought we were talking about a gang of 50-60 people systematically robbing and beating people in the confined environment of a train car.

You don't have to take a punch or a knife or a bullet before you can articulate a reasonable fear that your life is in jeprody. Means, Motive, and Opportunity have been met by the fact that they are currently attacking others and working their way back to you.
 
Kleanbore said:
On BART, and on the commuter trains and buses where I live, citizens will not be carrying lawfully.
Click to expand...

Not lawfully carrying firearms.
I live In California as well, and would be carrying a large sharp blade.
Accosting me and my wife would be a very bad mistake, and a great way to get cleaved.
Hands to yourself if you want to keep them attached.
 
Bad Ninja said:
Not lawfully carrying firearms.
I live In California as well, and would be carrying a large sharp blade
Accosting me and my wife would be a very bad mistake, and a great way to get cleaved.
Hands to yourself if you want to keep them attached.
Click to expand...

Bad Ninja, when I lived in Los Angeles (for 36 years), "carrying a large sharp blade" concealed, was a felony. Carrying a handgun concealed illegally was a misdemeanor. Since we left 19 years ago, I understand they have made the illegal carrying of a handgun concealed a "wobbler." Depending on what the D.A. decides to charge you, might be a misdemeanor or he might slap you with a felony. His (or her) choice.

To me, if a concealed large knife and a concealed handgun draw the same charge, might as well go whole hog and carry a handgun concealed.

Just my opinion.

L.W.
 
Leanwolf said:
Bad Ninja, when I lived in Los Angeles (for 36 years), "carrying a large sharp blade" concealed, was a felony. Carrying a handgun concealed illegally was a misdemeanor. Since we left 19 years ago, I understand they have made the illegal carrying of a handgun concealed a "wobbler." Depending on what the D.A. decides to charge you, might be a misdemeanor or he might slap you with a felony. His (or her) choice.

To me, if a concealed large knife and a concealed handgun draw the same charge, might as well go whole hog and carry a handgun concealed.

Just my opinion.

L.W.
Click to expand...


You are right, I Totally forgot about the LA restrictions where you have to be a victim.

I'm farther south. We can legally conceal a folder and open carry a sword.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
Option F: brandish and see if they will run, if not, start firing at my attackers. This is the most reasonable approach. Let them see the consequences of continued aggression before using deadly force.
Click to expand...
This seems the best option, however if both sides are trapped riding on the train, you face the possibility of them retreating , regrouping and re-attacking.
 
Grave bodily harm is on the list of reasons to apply lethal force. That many people seen harming passengers and staff present a disparity of force.

If someone shot any perp moving toward them, I wouldn't blame them.

The parents of these juveniles need to be beat by a crowd.

BTW, drawing when lethal force is justified, even if you don't fire, isn't brandishing.
 
and the monitors would contact officers immediately on something that abnormal. Also the train operators would call for the police or hold the train with doors open\ so people could exit if need be. At night we had K9 teams riding the trains and randomly jumping trains to insure patrons safety
 
Not every metro area covers their mass transit that way. Crime on the metrolink in St Louis is terrible. The train crosses many jurisdictions and the operator employs "security officers" with no police powers.

They do let off duty officers ride for free but I always reminded my officers that if you took metrolink up on their free ride, you were obligating yourself to take enforcement action if something happened.

Heck this type of scenario goes back farther then Bernie Geotz in NYC.
 
Don't give yourself to many options or you run into Hicks Law.

Just keep it simple. Fight or flight or give in. And if you are not a good shot or skilled at H2H then maybe just flight or give in.

Deaf
 
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