Fire Forming Brass And The "Jamming Into The Lands" Method

Status
Not open for further replies.

otisrush

Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
785
I need to fire form some brass. The gun is an old Remington Model 14 (pump) chambered in .32 Remington. I have new brass (Graf's).

I've loaded and fired just three rounds. But when I did that the primers backed out just a smidge. (This was discussed in another thread here quite a number of months ago. Since it's a pump, and apparently this model of gun is known for having a long chamber/throat/leade - whatever the right term is, in order to ensure the case head is up against the bolt face - one needs to ensure the bolt face is against the case head to ensure proper expansion to fit the gun's chamber.)

I've read about the "load the cartridge longer that is should be so that when you close the action it jams the bullet into the lands" method. (This, then, ensures the case head is up tight against the bolt face.) And overall I'm comfortable with this method. (Reasonably comfortable.)

Now, finally, my question: Do I or should I somehow expand the case mouth a bit more than normal to make it a little easier for the bullet to be jammed into the neck? Or will I just need to close the action with such force as to overcome that bullet/neck friction that normally is dealt with on the press?

It seems like I should somehow open up the neck a little more.....although I'll admit if that is the case I don't know how I would do that.

Any input from folks who have used this method?

Thanks.

OR
 
Last edited:
Expanding the case mouth is a handgun cartridge thing. You chamfer and deburr rifle case mouths.
New brass does not require any kind of fire forming. Just checking for length, trimming as required(not likely to be required though), chamfering and deburring, and FL resizing. Cases used in pump guns require FL resizing every time just like a semi-auto and lever action.
Primers backing out even just a smidge is a excessive pressure indicator. What data did you use? Think I have some Lyman data at home if you need it.
 
I'm quite confident this is not an over-pressure situation. Others with this gun described the exact same behavior upon first firing of new brass in this gun. The primers were not flattened at all.

I used a lite load of H335 - checking pressures with QuickLoad. I don't have the data right in front of me - but I believe it was 34gr of H335 with a 170 gr bullet.
 
You can't check anything with QuickLoad.
Don't have my old Lyman book here(not at home and it's really beat up. $50Cdmn up here for a new one.) but a quick look on other sites indicates the .32 Win Special and Rem use the same data. 34 grains of H335 is 2 over current max(30.0 to 32.0) for .32 Win Special. According to Hodgdon. I'd be really surprised if 2 grains mattered though. I'll look in the Lyman book when I get home anyway.
 
Lyman #45 had data. I will try to post it. Down Load- http://s338.photobucket.com/user/jo.../32 Remington Data.jpg A_zpsnib3myhf.jpg.html

32%20Remington%20Data.jpg%20A_zpsnib3myhf.jpg
 
Last edited:
Thanks all.

I did some digging. I now *know* I didn't use 34gr H335. That number was sticking in my head because a friend had sent me some data showing that was at or near max. So that number was in my head when I typed my reply.

That being said my loading records don't have what I used in those three test rounds. This is disconcerting on a whole other level in terms of the overall integrity of my record keeping. (I use Excel.) But I *know* I went on the lite site. I was very nervous about these first loads given load data is not ubiquitous - as well as the fact this gun has a tremendous amount of sentimental value to me.

And like I said - there were no other signs of high pressure such as flattened primers, etc. Additionally, given what others described and had experienced when I described the very-slightly-backed-out-primers from this gun/caliber combo, I'd concluded I needed to have a way to ensure the case head was up tight against the bolt face. (Which occurs with a bolt action - but not necessarily with a pump, from what I can tell.)

So....maybe my initial loads were too lite - and I should go above min to ensure sufficient pressure. Hodgdon's website says 30 to 32 gr of H335 for .32 Win Spcl and a 170gr bullet (which is what I'm using). I think I'll try a couple of rounds with a little over 30 gr and see how they do.

Thanks.

OR
 
Last edited:
Thanks all.

I did some digging. I now *know* I didn't use 34gr H335. That number was sticking in my head because a friend had sent me some data showing that was at or near max. So that number was in my head when I typed my reply.

That being said my loading records don't have what I used in those three test rounds. This is disconcerting on a whole other level in terms of the overall integrity of my record keeping. (I use Excel.) But I *know* I went on the lite site. I was very nervous about these first loads given load data is not ubiquitous - as well as the fact this gun has a tremendous amount of sentimental value to me.

And like I said - there were no other signs of high pressure such as flattened primers, etc. Additionally, given what others described and had experienced when I described the very-slightly-backed-out-primers from this gun/caliber combo, I'd concluded I needed to have a way to ensure the case head was up tight against the bolt face. (Which occurs with a bolt action - but not necessarily with a pump, from what I can tell.)

So....maybe my initial loads were too lite - and I should go above min to ensure sufficient pressure. Hodgdon's website says 30 to 32 gr of H335 for .32 Win Spcl and a 170gr bullet (which is what I'm using). I think I'll try a couple of rounds with a little over 30 gr and see how they do.

Thanks.

OR
There are other considerations with the older Remington pumps:
#1... The action has a fairly week lock up and if it has been fired a lot may be suffering from excessive headspace. This would allow the primer to back out some upon firing. If the brass shows a bright ring just above the case head this would be my first guess.
#2... If the die is set to over size the case it could also cause a condition of excessive headspace; this would also show a bright ring just above the case head.
A simple solution is to size the case so that the boltwill just close on it with very slight resistance. Once the case is fired in your chamber after being sized this way it should be a near perfect fit. Don't resize subsequent loads any more than to just fit in the chamber. Brass life will be shorter than normal, but this method has allowed many older rifles to become useful again. Keep powder charges fairly light and check for insipient case head separations before each reload.
 
I would not jam the bullet into the rifling. That can and usually does cause excessive pressures to build. Like said above, just size your brass correctly and it should be fine. It's possible your original loads was a little light so work up and see if that slight primer backing out works itself out.

As for load data, according to Speer #8 the 32 Remington and 32 Winchester Special are the same data. The 32 Remington is a rimless 32 Win Special.
 
If you take a spent primer and insert it just slightly in to the pocket, then chamber it it will show how much longer the headspace is from where the new cases were sized to. Caveat: if the pump action is able to do it. Loading to the lands CAN be dangerous, but this is how I make most of my rounds. Even fourty-five Auto. (Extraordinarily accurate single shots.) A reduction in powder is nessasary. A way to measure to the lands is helpful, but one could seat deeper untill the action closes. The good thing is this only needs to be done once on short brass. On a bolt rifle I am able to push the bolt with my thumb to seat the bullet deeper, defeating neck tension. I am unsure how to do this with a pump. You've piqued my intreset and I will have get my grandfather's Seven sixty Game master out to try this. Shoot well.
 
Looks like a low pressure round at 36,000 PSI , if the interweb is correct.

Light loads will let the primer back out, till the brass fully expands to the chamber.
This is correct. The firing pin forces the cartridge as far forward as it will go in the chamber, and the powder burn forces the primer out of the pocket until it stops at the breech face or bolt face. If there is any distance between the rear of the cartridge and the bolt face, it will push the primer out that amount. Jamming bullets into the rifling and using a lighter powder load to fire form the case to the chamber is an old, and useful method to creating well fitting brass to your rifle.
You may find that it yields the best accuracy in your rifle as well! Good shootin to ya!
 
  • Like
Reactions: DM~
As noted above, pumps and lever action firearms need to have reloads full length resized. The reason is that these type actions do not have the strong camming action that is inherent in a bolt action. SO--- if you have a perfectly formed chamber, i.e. no anomalies in interior shape, partial full length resizing or neck sizing might work but if the chamber in non-concentric in any respect you are likely going to wind up with a loaded round jammed in your action. This would not be good!
 
Agreed, lever action and pumps don't have the camming power needed to close on over sized brass. However, the first firing of using the jamming method will size the brass to much closer dimensions of the chamber. After that, headspace will be easier to adjust accurately.
 
The problem is that while the "fire-formed" case is an exact fit for the chamber it comes out of, unless you can be certain it will be inserted into the chamber in exactly the same way the next time you want to fire it, anomalies in the chamber can (and likely will) cause chambering problems on subsequent attempts. In bolt guns we can mark the base of the round to ensure it is inserted into the chamber in the exact same position each time. In a lever or pump gun --- not so much.
 
Fatelvis is correct. I know that jamming the bullet into the lands sounds scary, but that is what I did for my 32 Remington pump. I found the maximum total length the old fashioned way. I have a 1/4 inch cleaning rod, and 2- 1/4 inch drill bushings. The drill bushings have a setscrew on one side, and were made to be used on a 1/4 dill bit as a stop to limit the depth of drilling a hole. The bushings come as a set, I must have had 2- 1/4 inch ones in the set. Ace Hardware would be a good place to find them.Put one bushing on the cleaning rod and have the cleaning rod touch the bolt face ( a flat cleaning rod gig works great ). Be sure that the bushing is tight against the muzzle, tighten the set screw. Insert a bullet, and hold it in place with the rubber end of a pencil. Put the second drill bushing on the cleaning rod, and have the rod end touch the bullet while holding it in place with the pencil. Tighten the drill bushing at the rifle muzzel. Take your caliper and measure the distance between the outside surfaces of the drill bushings. Now remember to subtract the thickness of the bushing that touched the bolt face ( both bushings should measure the same-- so check their thickness )--- and you have your total cartridge length. Do this procedure several times to make certain of your measurement. This method should work for any rifle that can not have the O.A.L measured with the tools available today.

I loaded my bullets 0.010 long. Be sure NOT to crimp the bullet. DO NOT put these bullets into the tubular magazine, as they will not feed into the action due to their length and jam everything up. Ask me how I know !!! My primers were .004 to .0014 pushed out of the primer pockets before I fire formed my brass. I used a 70% load of Trail Boss, and the shoulders were moved forward to match my chamber. The next reloads had no backed out primers.This was a topic covered on this site last Spring or Summer, and I was part of it.

After your cases are fire formed, adjust your sizing die so it just touched the shoulder of the case. DO NOT exceed 2.525 O.A.L. of your reloads after fire forming as listed in the Lyman reloading page that 243winxb provided. You can not use the maximum O.A.L. length that you found in your rifle, just keep them shorter than 2.525.
 
^^^^^^^ Thanks Wis-Harpo. A follow-up.

I followed the technique you describe above. Great method.

I used Hornady's 170 gr .321" bullet (Hornady product #3210). I measured max COL a couple of times and came up with 2.542".

Which bullet did you use - and what max COL did you get? If you happen to be using the same bullet I'd be very curious to know what Max COL you got measuring your pump.

Thx.

OR
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top