Friend of mine just had to surrender his handguns (some lessons learned here)

Torian wrote:
The backstory was he had secured his firearm in his car prior to going into a local bar ... then somehow forgot he left the weapon in the car, and later that night assumed it was stolen from him in the bar, reporting it to the authorities. I think he had a few more drinks that night than he will admit.
In New York State, you have a limited window to report the loss or theft of a firearm before it can be held against you legally. While he ultimately found his handgun later (still in his vehicle), he had already reported its loss, and the police were in the midst of conducting a significant investigation when he had to call them and explain it was buried in a pile of clothes in his car.

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Going by this account, the friend:

• "Secured" his gun by burying it in a pile of clothes in his car.
• Went into a bar, got sufficiently impaired that he couldn't remember "securing" his gun, couldn't locate it, couldn't conduct a thorough enough search of his vehicle to discover the gun, and so
• Filed a false police report in which he admitted (albeit falsely) that he took the gun into the bar from where it was "stolen".

Failing to secure a gun, taking a gun into a bar (which he didn't actually do, but which he swore in the police report he did do) and filing a false police report is more that sufficient for someone to lose their "license to carry" even in a "gun friendly" state like Texas - and if in Texas the LTC was required to possess the gun, the result would be the same as the friend is experiencing.

Arizona_Mike wrote
He did the right thing . . . twice.

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As I see it, he did the wrong thing . . . thrice.

hdwhit said:

Going by this account, the friend:

• "Secured" his gun by burying it in a pile of clothes in his car.
• Went into a bar, got sufficiently impaired that he couldn't remember "securing" his gun, couldn't locate it, couldn't conduct a thorough enough search of his vehicle to discover the gun, and so
• Filed a false police report in which he admitted (albeit falsely) that he took the gun into the bar from where it was "stolen".

Failing to secure a gun, taking a gun into a bar (which he didn't actually do, but which he swore in the police report he did do) and filing a false police report is more that sufficient for someone to lose their "license to carry" even in a "gun friendly" state like Texas - and if in Texas the LTC was required to possess the gun, the result would be the same as the friend is experiencing.
As I see it, he did the wrong thing . . . thrice.

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its not illegal to take a firearm into a bar in New York.

heyjoe said:

its not illegal to take a firearm into a bar in New York.

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So he's only wrong twice, not three times.

I'm a handgun owner in New York State, and I understand that the 24-hour window for reporting theft here is what jammed him up here, leaving him no good option to repair the situation, but the bottom line is that the situation was caused by his own carelessness in losing track of his firearm. This kind of behavior is fresh meat for the anti-gun feeding frenzy. It's hard enough for gun owners here. We don't need to be our own worst enemies.

I live extremely close to the NYS border. Tioga Co. P.A., I hear all the time from NY residents passing through our area how "bogus" the NYS laws are in regards to guns, the word bogus I purposely put in quotes is because that is word I hear all the time coming from them, personally. I'm just glad that I live on what I like to refer to as the "right side of the border".

toivo said:

So he's only wrong twice, not three times.

I'm a handgun owner in New York State, and I understand that the 24-hour window for reporting theft here is what jammed him up here, leaving him no good option to repair the situation, but the bottom line is that the situation was caused by his own carelessness in losing track of his firearm. This kind of behavior is fresh meat for the anti-gun feeding frenzy. It's hard enough for gun owners here. We don't need to be our own worst enemies.

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hdwhit said:

Going by this account, the friend:

• "Secured" his gun by burying it in a pile of clothes in his car.
• Went into a bar, got sufficiently impaired that he couldn't remember "securing" his gun, couldn't locate it, couldn't conduct a thorough enough search of his vehicle to discover the gun, and so
• Filed a false police report in which he admitted (albeit falsely) that he took the gun into the bar from where it was "stolen".

Failing to secure a gun, taking a gun into a bar (which he didn't actually do, but which he swore in the police report he did do) and filing a false police report is more that sufficient for someone to lose their "license to carry" even in a "gun friendly" state like Texas - and if in Texas the LTC was required to possess the gun, the result would be the same as the friend is experiencing.



As I see it, he did the wrong thing . . . thrice.

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Are you implying he did not lock his car? I really don't see the issues? Do you not have truck guns in TX?
Heck, I need absolutely no alcohol to forget where I put my keys or my glasses.
Not a "false" report if not knowingly giving false information.

He chose not to have a gun with him while drinking
He thought he had lost the gun and tried to comply with the rather draconian law.

As I said he tried to do the right thing twice.

Mike

Arizona_Mike said:

He chose not to have a gun with him while drinking
He thought he had lost the gun and tried to comply with the rather draconian law.

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If he didn't want to have a gun with him while drinking, he should have secured it at home before going out. Instead, he locked it in the car that he was going to have to either drive home drunk in or leave parked at the bar until he was sober enough to go and get it -- if he even remembered where he had left it.

Thinking you lost something is not the same as getting so drunk that you don't remember what you did with it. Any way you slice it, it's not responsible gun ownership.

My lessons learned:

1. Do not enter NYS. Ever. (My long standing policy).
2. Drink at home. No driving issues, no gun issues.
3. Develop routine habits for where things are kept. Drunk or sober, helps find them later.

RBH

I don't mean this in the snide way that I'm sure it comes off, but if I were your friend I would seriously consider moving out of state. That's especially true if his collection of handguns has significant value.

I find it amusing that in a forum full of staunch 2A supporters there are so many rabid teetotalers. Missing Prohibition days?
Shocking as it is, one can actually (and legally in many areas) consume alcohol in moderation in public without turning into a slobbering buffoon. The OP speculated (unless he was there administering a sobriety test...) his friend drank too much. Relax, get off your high horse and put away your jump to conclusions mats.

Mayvik said:

Shocking as it is, one can actually (and legally in many areas) consume alcohol in moderation in public without turning into a slobbering buffoon. The OP speculated (unless he was there administering a sobriety test...) his friend drank too much. Relax, get off your high horse and put away your jump to conclusions mats.

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Jump to conclusions? The facts speak for themselves. His friend drank to the point that he forgot what he had done with his firearm. You call that moderate consumption? I call it blackout drinking. No high horse required to see the simple truth.

He did the right thing . . . twice. Can't believe they are using this against him.

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You're kidding, right? I'm surprised he isn't somehow getting a felony as well (seeing as only one of his good deeds is going punished, after all).

Let's not go & think of how many NYC LEO's have forgotten their duty pistols in public places over the last year alone & not faced similar punishment...my educated guess is it's a non-zero number (and I suspect a pretty safe bet; ETA; sure 'nuff 4/21/17, "air marshal forgets a gun on NY bound plane")

Exact same scenario could happen to any of us if a spouse or someone else with access borrowed or otherwise relocated a firearm, btw; in a state where you are required to report stolen guns, and have no other information as to where it could have gone, what other option is there if you want to follow the law? Is the real "issue" here that the guy made a conjecture about who may have been responsible for the theft, when asked by the police no doubt? Or that he got drunk at a bar some period of time prior to this? As if that is somehow a crime, either. I guess he should have talked to the police without telling them anything, right?

"2. Drink at home. No driving issues, no gun issues."
What's funny, is that getting trashed at home with a gun in a locked drawer is functionally no different than leaving it locked in your glove box (or under clothes, or other similarly insecure area inside an otherwise secured/locked vehicle).

TCB

Really? Is your home as insecure as a locked, unattended vehicle in a public parking lot or parked at the curb? Wow. You keep your guns in locked drawers in your home? Hmmmm... That's not the situation at my home. The incident that is the subject of this thread is why the antis have a valid argument that gun owners are irresponsible. I don't like being lumped in that group any more than I want to be lumped with a bunch of neo-nazis because of who I vote for. As far as the LEOs that lose their weapons (presumably when sober) they ought to be reassigned to the evidence room while they get retrained. Or better yet, to meter maid duty without a weapon. Irresponsible is irresponsible no matter who does it, and this is seriously irresponsible.

Arizona_Mike said:

Are you implying he did not lock his car? I really don't see the issues? Do you not have truck guns in TX?
Heck, I need absolutely no alcohol to forget where I put my keys or my glasses.
Not a "false" report if not knowingly giving false information.

He chose not to have a gun with him while drinking
He thought he had lost the gun and tried to comply with the rather draconian law.

As I said he tried to do the right thing twice.

Mike

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Amazing that someone thinks not having a gun with them while drinking is wise, but driving drunk is OK.
Hint: Guess which form of stupidity kills more people?

Torian said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. Some good and spirited feedback here. To review, I think we can all agree that a certain degree of carelessness was involved, and yet at the same time this I individual showed true concern and respect for the law, demonstrated by his reporting of the incident.

My issue is with this "crime" committed, and the only true victim at the end of it all is the guy who may have permanently lost his right to own a pistol...forgetting the CCW aspect at this point. He also lost property, which the state now holds, and no one else is permitted to retrieve it.

This single incident, after a lifetime of being a law-abiding citizen (65 years old), is being used as the justification to take his firearms and 2nd amendment rights away. Even as a responsible gun owner, the state's response appears overly hostile. As it stands, I couldn't even move to this state without leaving 90% of the guns I own outside the borders.

Are we ok with this? Should we be? Honest questions here. We are all gun owners that value our Constitutional rights. We shouldn't let hostile states in the union turn us against each other on these topics. We barely are holding our ground as it is.

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Good call. Guns are not for everyone. Neither are cars. We're all safer because of your friend's "loss."

I can only hope that some that can not see this from the other side of the table are given an opportunity to do so. Obviously this situation is less than ideal.To err is human, to not forgive, sigh, is also human. I've said before that I'll never get good enough to be human, let alone perfect. I am glad that I can read and write to those that are. I also hope one day your friend recieves his firearms back or is some way made whole. The most offensive acts, most damaging to psyche and society, are often never punished. But here we are eating our own. The antis are not getting help from this. When they need help they will just make something up.

Torian said:

My issue is with this "crime" committed, and the only true victim at the end of it all is the guy who may have permanently lost his right to own a pistol...forgetting the CCW aspect at this point. He also lost property, which the state now holds, and no one else is permitted to retrieve it.

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I don't believe your last statement is true. Here's the relevant law:

6. A firearm or other weapon which is surrendered, or is otherwise
voluntarily delivered pursuant to section 265.20 of this chapter and
which has not been declared a nuisance pursuant to subdivision one of
this section, shall be retained by the official to whom it was delivered
for a period not to exceed one year. Prior to the expiration of such
time period, a person who surrenders a firearm shall have the right to
arrange for the sale, or transfer, of such firearm to a dealer in
firearms licensed in accordance with this chapter or for the transfer of
such firearm to himself or herself provided that a license therefor has
been issued in accordance with this chapter. If no lawful disposition of
the firearm or other weapon is made within the time provided, the
firearm or weapon concerned shall be declared a nuisance and shall be
disposed of in accordance with the provisions of this section.

--http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article400.htm

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Torian said:

This single incident, after a lifetime of being a law-abiding citizen (65 years old), is being used as the justification to take his firearms and 2nd amendment rights away. Even as a responsible gun owner, the state's response appears overly hostile. As it stands, I couldn't even move to this state without leaving 90% of the guns I own outside the borders.

Are we ok with this? Should we be? Honest questions here. We are all gun owners that value our Constitutional rights. We shouldn't let hostile states in the union turn us against each other on these topics. We barely are holding our ground as it is.

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I'm not OK with what your friend did, but I'm not OK with the law either. My main argument with the law is that (a) the window for reporting theft is too short, and (b) there is no legal recourse for the gun owner once the guns have been seized. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if the owner could have a hearing, with legal representation, where the state had to show cause for the revocation of the permit and the seizure of the firearms. Unfortunately, that's not how things work in the "Empire State," where we're at the mercy of the whims of Emperor Andy.

If the law clearly specifies "stolen" rather than "missing" I would think there is some wiggle room for honest citizens to exhaust options in considering other possibilities before reporting a firearm stolen.

Not being sure an item is stolen before checking all the possible locations it may have been left is a reasonable view to take. Why be quick to involve anti-gunners in your life?

Squire Western said:

Agree. As bad as New York is gunwise, Hawaii, and probably also Maryland, are considerably worse.

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Currently California is probably considered "The Worst" as far as gun laws, but I guess it depends on who you ask .

toivo said:

Jump to conclusions? The facts speak for themselves. His friend drank to the point that he forgot what he had done with his firearm. You call that moderate consumption? I call it blackout drinking. No high horse required to see the simple truth.

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Except for those who don't want to see the simple truth.

The biggest lesson here, perhaps, is not to report something "stolen" unless and until you know it's gone. I suspect that had the individual reported his gun "missing" and then called back later and said "Hey I found my gun in my car," all that would have happened was a slightly embarrassing phone call.

barnbwt said:

You're kidding, right? I'm surprised he isn't somehow getting a felony as well (seeing as only one of his good deeds is going punished, after all).

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In NY, he actually might be. All depends on how hard the local DA wants to hit someone with a law book.

jrmiddleton425 said:

The biggest lesson here, perhaps, is not to report something "stolen" unless and until you know it's gone. I suspect that had the individual reported his gun "missing" and then called back later and said "Hey I found my gun in my car," all that would have happened was a slightly embarrassing phone call.

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Nope. Not in NY anyway. As mentioned a few times here, NYS has a law that all missing/lost/stolen firearms must be reported within 24 hours you realize it is gone. You have 24 hours to find it, that is all. After that you do risk being criminally charged. If drinking (especially heavily) that 24 hour window can go by very quickly.

Sounds like he had enough drinks to forget his handgun whereabouts, but not too many to have a designated driver.

heyjoe wrote:
its not illegal to take a firearm into a bar in New York.

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Well, as I said, I had to make some assumptions and was wrong about that one.

Torian wrote:
My issue is with this "crime" committed, and the only true victim at the end of it all is the guy who may have permanently lost his right to own a pistol...

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No, what you're forgetting about is the fact that burying a gun in a pile of clothes (your description) could not in any way be considered "securing" a firearm. And then because he couldn't find his insecured firearm he then (however sincerely believed otherwise at the time) filed a false police report accusing innocent people of having stolen a gun he had simply misplaced.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig.

The "crime(s)" he is being called to answer for are genuine crimes. The fact he was wrong about his initial assertion that the gun was stolen is irrelevant to the fact he filed a police report saying that it was. Unless we're going to take a position that someone who is drunk should have ready access to a gun (remember, you said he discovered his "secured" weapon in a pile of clothes), we should be united in saying that drunk people should not have firearms and those who do should lose the right - at least temporarily.