Legal Question about marine transport of handgun

I am no expert, nor an attorney.

Waterways can be state, national or international. For your purposes, I assume we are talking about inland waterways and not offshore (not past the COLREGS demarcation line, or beyond the 3 mile or 12 mile limits). In that case...as far as I know....that is state land (submerged lands) and under state jurisdiction.

And you are further compromised by being on a boat. The USCG has jurisdiction over all vessels of all types, that are US flagged...anywhere in the world. As far as I know, it is my personal understanding that unlike being in your home, the USCG can board your boat at any time, anywhere for any reason. As far as I know, the USCG needs no probable cause, they simply conduct a safety inspection.

If a state officer wants to board your boat, all they have to do is ask a USCG or Homeland Security vessel to assist.


Just my 0.02...YMMMV....nothing above constitutes anything that may be construed as legal advice. I am in no way responsible for what you may do with this advice.



And...btw...if a CG or LEO asked me a direct question, regarding weapons or anything else aboard my boat, I ...personally...would give them a straight, honest answer.

I would guess that the Safe Passage provision of the FOPA might play into this somehow.



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IMX, the USCG is not concerned with state law.

That's based on 3 boardings in NYS waters, concerning a pistol that was not permitted in NYS, and am AR that did not meet the restrictions of the ( pre- NY SAFE ) NY AW ban.

If you carry your handgun from your permitted state over the demarcation line into another states waters, by boat, that doesn't share reciprocal agreement with the state in which you hold a permit, does that constitute a violation of law.

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If you’re still carrying concealed, yes.

Whether storing the gun somewhere appropriate on the boat is a violation of the law is another matter altogether.

It also depends on agreements between the states.

The Columbia river between Oregon and Washington has a borderline that wanders across the river bottom. But your Oregon or Washington fishing license is good anywhere on the main river. If I launch in Oregon, then no matter where I'm at on the main river my Oregon CHL is good. Same for Washington. Now above the dams you're on COE administered water so legally you're not allowed to have a weapon no matter what.

The OP has asked a very involved and convoluted question that IMHO is almost impossible to answer without all the specifics.

Cannibul said:

It also depends on agreements between the states.

The Columbia river between Oregon and Washington has a borderline that wanders across the river bottom. But your Oregon or Washington fishing license is good anywhere on the main river. If I launch in Oregon, then no matter where I'm at on the main river my Oregon CHL is good. Same for Washington. Now above the dams you're on COE administered water so legally you're not allowed to have a weapon no matter what.

The OP has asked a very involved and convoluted question that IMHO is almost impossible to answer without all the specifics.

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Bingo.

As another example, Lake Havasu is part of Fedreal Colorado River and splits AZ and CA.

The CG, CA, and AZ all have patrol boats on that lake and all of them give citations and make arrests on both sides of the line.

I strongly suggest you contact a lawyer who specializes in Maritime Law and maybe a Second Amendment guy.

I'm going to bet that when some of our members who practice law find this thread they're going to tell you there isn't a black and white law and that you have to go by case law.

Duplicate post

I am also a Ct boater. My understanding is that yes if in NY waters you are in violation.
That said, I have had a firearm aboard many times in both NY and RI. Unless you are brandishing, no one will know.
Also as I have also been boarded by the CG on more than one occasion, one of the first questions they ask is "do you have any firearms aboard?" How you answer determines their next step.
They never checked permits, or anything like that, they just want them unloaded and out of your reach while they are aboard.

And in MY experience, all boardings (and other occurrences) have been done with great respect by the CG personnel.

When you are in NY waters, you are not legally allowed to have your handgun. Just as if you drove to NY and stopped there.
The local water cops and USCG may ignore this, countless times. And they may not. If they do not, you are likely going to jail. Depends on the cop, time and circumstance.

The above poster is correct, the USCG may not care to enforce state law. Or they may, if they have a local LEO riding with them, or come to assist a local LEO because they are bored or need that training. You never know.

Some people take chances and never have a problem. Some people get into trouble. Just depends on how lucky you feel.

I have a 100T USCG Master's license and have cruised many thousands of sea miles, up and down the East Coast of the US, offshore, coastal, and internationally. Hardly ever been boarded. But...once...riding in a dink...was given a ticket for not having a whistle on a life jacket (or something like that). Have seen other sailors get into trouble for the oddest things. The point is....you never know what their instructions are that day.

Added: You are really asking two questions:

1. Is my CT handgun legal in NY? And you know the answer to that.
2. Will I get caught? And no one knows the answer to that. If you do get caught....is your defense really going to be....well, everyone else does it.

Good luck to you.

Here's the advice I'd give.... as a retired LEO and also a full time boat captain (little boat, full time fishing guide down here in paradise these past 21 years...)....

Once you're in another state's waters make sure you're in compliance with their laws (your carry permit may not be valid in that state - so make sure you're not carrying concealed in those waters...). If you're familiar with that second state's requirements regarding ammo or other minor points - be in compliance with their laws, period. If boarded by the Coast Guard or other authority, comply with their requests (consider the consequences if you state "no firearms aboard" then are found to have not told the truth....). As for the advice to contact an attorney who specializes in maritime law... that might actually not be a very good idea since maritime law is not exactly very straightforward at all. If you're in the business of working on the water and have employees you'll soon learn that you will need a maritime attorney.... I belong to a trade group for charter captains and every time I'm forwarded an opinion based in maritime law it requires me to slow down and read the advice given more than once to make sure I understand it.... lots of ins and outs with maritime law....

Lastly, if seriously concerned about the issue, I'd make a point of contacting a supervisor with your local Coast Guard base and ask for his/her advice on how to proceed regarding weapons aboard your vessel -and what if any guidelines they operate under as far as notifying that second state if they encounter arms in that state's jurisdiction while doing routine inspections. Just my opinion (and I'm no lawyer) but if any possible criminal activity is found by them I'd expect them to notify the local jurisdiction as a matter of routine - and I'm not talking about simple weapons possession...

Captian33036's post #12 seems like the correct and most logical answer. If NY caught you with the gun in their state what defense would you possibly have and would it matter? If they arrest you and take you into custody it's going to be a huge hassle even if somehow you get off in the end.

Can you stay in CT waters and avoid going into NY?

stonebuster wrote:
If you carry your handgun from your permitted state over the demarcation line into another states waters, by boat, that doesn't share reciprocal agreement with the state in which you hold a permit, does that constitute a violation of law.

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If you are carrying a concealed weapon in a jurisdiction that requires a license to carry a concealed weapon and you are not licensed in that jurisdiction (or covered by reciprocity), it doesn't matter if you got there by car, airplane, boat, foot or winged fairies.

stonebuster said:

Let me try to be more clear and specific...I have a Connecticut pistol permit that allows CC. I leave Ct. waters and cross into New York waters. My Ct. permit isn't recognized in New York. (My fishing license is, but that has no bearing on this discussion). When I travel down to the boat in Ct. I bring my handgun. I don't want to lock the gun in the truck and take a chance someone will steal it. If I bring it on the boat and I'm boarded by CG in New York waters, might be a problem. Maybe the same rules apply to transport of a handgun through NY in a car apply to boats also. I will have to research it. I just thought someone here may have that info already.

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Ok, both my boardings were in Western Long Island Sound, in NY waters, and in both cases, other than asking if they were secured, the USCG party had no further interest. This was an 80' private yacht, US Flagged.

In a different case, right next to me on a dock in Sag Harbor, a private yacht, foreign flagged ( US owner & Captain ) was boarded by ICE & Suffolk County Sheriffs & Village PD, as part of a paperwork check for Visas ( they seem to do it most summers that I've been there). The Captain, a Florida resident, volunteered that he had a pistol on board.
He got an appearance ticket, and the pistol was confiscated. In court, the charges were dismissed, and the pistol returned with instructions to return with paperwork showing he had shipped it to an FFL in Florida.

Which shocked me, actually.

Point being, it'd be hard to say what would happen on a given day in a particular situation. Which is why I qualified my answer.

The advice to seek a Maritime lawyer is good advice. A boat is not a car, nor your house but a combination of the two depending if you are underway or anchored. It is perfectly legal (at least here in Ohio) to consume copious amounts of alcohol as long as you are anchored and are sober when you pull anchor and fire up the engine. Maybe the laws treat you boat more like a residence when anchored with regard to firearms laws. I have no idea, just throwing that out there.

I read an article and I'll post the link later when I'm not on my phone the base we said you have no Fourth Amendment rights when it comes to a boat and the Coast Guard.

What the article didn't mention and what I'd like to know is do you have any Fifth Amendment rights?

Assuming I were ever boarded by the Coast Guard the first words( and last) out of my mouth would be I have nothing to say without speaking to a lawyer

Acera said:

I would guess that the Safe Passage provision of the FOPA might play into this somehow.

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Safe passage might only apply if you were passing through to the next state. But if your destination waters are within the state that does not recognize your home state permit you might be in trouble. But it also depends on the general laws in the destination state concerning handguns, even if they do not honor your permit, possession of a handgun not carried on the person might not neccessarily be illegal.

hdwhit said:

If you are carrying a concealed weapon in a jurisdiction that requires a license to carry a concealed weapon and you are not licensed in that jurisdiction (or covered by reciprocity), it doesn't matter if you got there by car, airplane, boat, foot or winged fairies.

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I think the issue here is possession. If you do not have the handgun concealed on or about your person, it really falls back on whether it is legal to have on a boat, say as you could have in your car travelling, into a hotel room for the night, then back in the car and leaving the state the next day.

You also need to be aware of where the state boundary is. Generally, it's down the middle of the body of water. That's not always so. The state line between VA and MD on the lower Potomac is the midwater mark (IIRC) on the VA shoreline. That means just about anywhere on the lower Potomac is in MD.

The USCG can board you for a safety check anywhere. So can a variety of other Federal agencies. That gets them on the boat. Officers, Warrant Officers, and Petty Officers of the USCG are also designated Customs Officers by statute. If you are on a body of water which gives direct access to international waters they can do a customs search. No probable cause or warrant needed. CBP can also do this. There are also thousands of state and local LEOs that are cross designated customs officers. Foreign flag vessels are subject to a Customs search at any time in US waters.

If you refuse to answer any questions asked by the Coast Guard I can guarantee it will not work out well for you. As I read someone say, "It's like reading Playboy with the Pope. It'll pass the time but it won't get you anywhere".

Dunno about State laws(suspect a State border is a State border though. Said borders usually run in the middle of a river just like International borders do.), but if you're stopped by our Coast Guard in Canadian waters(our side of the Great Lakes for instance.) and are found to be in possession of any firearm, you'll be arrested, charged(possibly with attempting to smuggle firearms into Canada. Or simple possession without a licence and carrying a concealed weapon. All of which involves a possible visit to one of Her Majesty's Prisons. And confiscation of the firearm.) and turned over to Homeland Security. And quite likely denied entry at any border crossing. Whole thing will be worse if the thing is loaded. Loaded firearms are illegal in any motorised vehicle.
"...the first words( and last) out of my mouth..." Should be, "Shiver me timbers! Call me lawyer!" snicker

Your Fourth Amendment Rights in a Coast Guard boarding


http://www.sailfeed.com/2012/10/coast-guard-boardings-and-your-fourth-amendment-rights-part-1/

Good article Trunk Monkey, thanks for the link.



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Acera said:

the Safe Passage provision of the FOPA

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Other than it requires any such weapons to be locked away, out of operator's reach/control, with ammunition separate.
Which in now way resembles concealed carry.
It also probably might not be proof against the SAFE act--but, I can only speculate on that.