Think before you speak

OP, well done sir. What a great gesture.

-Jeff

To the O/P--you sir are a knight. Self confidence is important and the fact that you picked up on her distress and corrected the problem might just keep her safe someday.

As someone who was in that lady's place years ago, I understand her problem. I still have an old revolver that most of you would turn up their noses at as a "junk gun" However, living in the shady neighborhoods that I lived in due to economic circumstances, that is all that I could have afforded at that point--it was a gift from a relative. I shot it sparingly, loaded it with best self defense ammo that I could afford, did not try to hot rod it, and the firearm itself was actually pretty accurate. Later, I added a cheap pump action shotgun when I could.

Have no position on High Points as I have never owned one but from all accounts--they appear to be safe, accurate enough for self defense, have a decent warranty, and in readily available calibers. FWIW, know a pawn retailer that sells a lot of them and has few returns on them. Guntests has found them clunky but reliable and usable. On the CF9, "We conclude the Hi-Point is well worth owning, and judging from the rapid sales of Hi-Points at the local gun shop, we’re not alone in our high opinion of this simple, low-cost pistol." Like any firearm, you must make sure that it works reliably with your chosen ammo and this is where the Hi-Point could be problematic.

Well done on sacrificing a bit to set the lady up with a more suitable gun for her, test drive.

There's a lot of truth in the old sayings about Walk a mile in their shoes. Often just a few imaginary steps can be enough to adjust the perspective of a good man.

CraigC said:

Wrong. The truth is the truth, regardless of how anyone feels about it, good or bad. IMHO, people should have all the information possible, even when it's not what they want to hear. This is only a question of delivery. Nothing wrong with owning or using a cheap gun but do so with your eyes open.

I'm sorry but calling someone a snob because they're honest about cheap guns is like calling them a racist because they don't believe in welfare. I'm tired of this politically correct nonsense and this is just political correctness in the guise of a class war. As if getting offended or hurt feelings are the worst things that could happen. Getting yourself and/or your family killed is a whole lot worse than getting your feelings hurt. I'd rather someone hurt my feelings telling me I bought a piece of junk and needed a better tool than to placate me with false confidence in a tool that might not get the job done. Too much at stake here. I applaud the OP for doing a good deed but to the above quoted post, this "snob" would buy the lady in question an entry-level S&W or Ruger before I'd lie to her about the HiPoint.

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Craig,

I agree that a person with a bad gun should be pointed in the direction of a better option, but as instructors, it is my opinion that we help the student get as proficient as possible with the gun they have, not the gun they may or may not get later down the road.

So yes, inform them that a sub par gun is sub par.

And yes, make suggestions or provide opportunities for them to get a better gun.

And yes, use tact or they may blow you off and now you are not helping them anymore.

And yes, help them as best you can with whatever they currently have.

CraigC said:

Wrong. The truth is the truth, regardless of how anyone feels about it, good or bad. IMHO, people should have all the information possible, even when it's not what they want to hear. This is only a question of delivery. Nothing wrong with owning or using a cheap gun but do so with your eyes open.

I'm sorry but calling someone a snob because they're honest about cheap guns is like calling them a racist because they don't believe in welfare. I'm tired of this politically correct nonsense and this is just political correctness in the guise of a class war. As if getting offended or hurt feelings are the worst things that could happen. Getting yourself and/or your family killed is a whole lot worse than getting your feelings hurt. I'd rather someone hurt my feelings telling me I bought a piece of junk and needed a better tool than to placate me with false confidence in a tool that might not get the job done. Too much at stake here. I applaud the OP for doing a good deed but to the above quoted post, this "snob" would buy the lady in question an entry-level S&W or Ruger before I'd lie to her about the HiPoint.

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Attached are 3 links to reviews of Hi Points. They're on par with what seems to be the consensus regarding them. Ugly, heavy, but inexpensive and reliable. We need to differentiate between guns that are either unsafe or unreliable, which should be brought to their owner's attention and guns that are inexpensive but reliable. The difference is that in the first scenario, we're alerting the owner to a gun that may not function if they need it to defend themselves with. In the second scenario the person speaking ill of the gun is IMO a snob. Hi Point fills an important need in the gun community, a reliable gun that someone with a lower income could afford.


http://www.handgunsmag.com/reviews/hi-point-c9-review/
http://gunsgunsguns.net/hi-point-9mm/
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handguns/handgun_reviews_hipoint_100605/

You know, I actually sing the praises of Hipoint for that exact reason. It enables a person on a tight budget to get adequate protection right there and then, whereas they would have to save up for months to afford a Glock. I think of a female college student who finds herself the object of a stalker's desire, a single mother fearing retribution from an abusive ex, a retired or disabled person living on social security, and so forth. There are simply times when a person needs a gun right now, and that is a financial burden even for those firmly in the middle class. You're looking at 500-600 for the gun, 200 for the permit depending on state, 200+ for practice ammo and range fees just to get to where you know how to use it, 20 minimum for carry ammo, more for holsters and cleaning supplies, not to mention a good gun safe if you have small children...it gets insane. Turning that 500 for the gun into 100 SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the financial burden. For a hundred and some change a person can get adequate home protection that very night.

Just going from what I've heard, I would actually urge someone to get a Hipoint before a Taurus or Keltec. Everything I've seen indicates that they're surprisingly accurate and go bang when you pull the trigger. You can't ask for more than that from a gun that costs less than a month of cable.

TomJ said:

Attached are 3 links to reviews of Hi Points. They're on par with what seems to be the consensus regarding them. Ugly, heavy, but inexpensive and reliable. We need to differentiate between guns that are either unsafe or unreliable, which should be brought to their owner's attention and guns that are inexpensive but reliable. The difference is that in the first scenario, we're alerting the owner to a gun that may not function if they need it to defend themselves with. In the second scenario the person speaking ill of the gun is IMO a snob.

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Do you carry a HiPoint? Do you trust your life to a HiPoint? Are HiPoints (or similarly priced handguns) all you own? If not, then stop calling people snobs just because they prefer something better. It's unproductive and usually inaccurate. I don't own a HiPoint, just as I don't buy cheap scopes, own a 30yr old beater car or wear Walmart brand clothes. I want better and I can afford better so I have better. Does that make me a snob? No. Wanting/having better things does not make you a snob. Recommending others do the same does not make you a snob. Thinking having better things makes you a better person makes you a snob. They're inanimate objects, having them doesn't enhance your character any more than wanting them impugns it. Big distinction. No one is doing that there, including the OP.

TomJ said:

Hi Point fills an important need in the gun community, a reliable gun that someone with a lower income could afford.

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On that we agree. However, one shouldn't have to be starry eyed about them to utilize one. I'm a big believer in the 20v lithium power tools by Black & Decker, because they're relatively cheap. I don't have to delude myself into believing their the best there is to use them. I know who makes better tools and I have them for applications where that matters.


All this class war crap stems from the liberal belief in making people content with mediocrity, while punishing and shaming the successful.

Whoa, where did anyone say hipoints were the best??? I've literally never heard ANYONE say that. Ever. The nicest thing I've ever heard anyone say about them is they're a stone cold reliable boat anchor.

And class warfare??? Who brought up class warfare? Yikes!

test drive said:

I'm a cwp instructor for SC and as I prepare for a class I'm reminded of something that happened to me back in 2009 in one of my first classes. The question of gun quality and what I thought of Hi Point firearms. I gave my opinion based on what I had seen through the years Wich was not a pretty picture. Unknown to me at the time a young lady that was taking the class had a Hi Point to use for weapons qualification. She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight. Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault. After everyone else shot I ask her to try again with one of my range revolvers a older but very nice Rossi M88. We went over some pointers and she had no problems passing. Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

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You did the right thing.

While I stick with my own opinion that Hi-Point guns are far from unreliable and far from unsafe, I do feel that the lady in the OP, given her lack of experience and likely limited skill in the manual-of-arms with one, is better served in the short run by the revolver the OP traded her for it. No slide to rack, and no safety to fiddle with; just keep it ready to go.

Of course, it’s possible to express an opinion concerning a firearm in a constructive manner.

“Hi-Point is a good entry-level pistol for those on a budget” and the like.

Test Drive, nicely done. Good on you.

CraigC said:

Do you carry a HiPoint? Do you trust your life to a HiPoint? Are HiPoints (or similarly priced handguns) all you own? If not, then stop calling people snobs just because they prefer something better. It's unproductive and usually inaccurate. I don't own a HiPoint, just as I don't buy cheap scopes, own a 30yr old beater car or wear Walmart brand clothes. I want better and I can afford better so I have better. Does that make me a snob?

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I made the snob statement and stand by it WHEN the person who can afford whatever he wants tries to tell someone who cannot afford the same that he/she is buying/owns an unsafe gun and should buy something better. So please tell me, what makes a Hi Point an unsafe choice? We've read here of people who own them or shoot them and find them accurate and reliable. There are links to other sites that say the same thing. To me, if a gun is reliable and accurate it is not junk not matter what you paid for it, Telling someone that they bought a POS because it is beneath your level of acceptance is snobbery if the gun is safe, reliable and accurate. Hi Points have proven to be all that.

MedWheeler said:

While I stick with my own opinion that Hi-Point guns are far from unreliable and far from unsafe, I do feel that the lady in the OP, given her lack of experience and likely limited skill in the manual-of-arms with one, is better served in the short run by the revolver the OP traded her for it. No slide to rack, and no safety to fiddle with; just keep it ready to go.

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Gotta agree with this and with those folks that gave a big Kudos to the OP. Depending on how petite the young lady was, grip size could have been a factor also. Biggest factor tho, was probably confidence. After being told her gun was junk and she couldn't have confidence in one, she responded appropriately. Hard to get enthused about something and concentrate when you think everyone is laughing at you and your equipment. Odds are instead of concentrating on the front sight, she was thinking, "why did I buy this POS?". Having the same person in authority, that scorned her first choice of a firearm, trading her something he considered "much better" was a big confidence builder. Add to that she shot the new gun better and she too, will probably always look down at Hi-Points. How well a person shoots a gun, shoots a bow or rides a motorcycle, is all a reflection of how confident they are with it. This is why some folks never get good at any of them, regardless of price point. Gettin' shot in the vitals with a Hi-Point is gonna kill ya just as dead as getting shot there with a Python. For the dead guy tho, probably just as embarrassing as gettin' hung with a WalMart brand rope instead of a King's.

Guns, are basically just tools. One should use the one most appropriate for the job intended and invest in the best quality they can realistically afford. They then need to practice with it and get proficient, regardless of how much quality that was. For this young lady to survive a scenario where she needed to use a gun, she needs to have more going for her than just what brand of firearm she has on her. She needs a level of skill, awareness and the right mindset. Seeing as how she has already survived this long in the scenarios presented by the OP and the fact she has the confidence and courage as a previous non-gun owner to invest in a gun and take a class, she probably already has a better mindset than many men with EDCs costing ten times as much. Odds are, until she gets along better financially, maybe finds a good man to help her, she won't put enough rounds downrange to wear out any firearm, the Hi-Point inclusive.

larryh1108 said:

I made the snob statement and stand by it WHEN the person who can afford whatever he wants tries to tell someone who cannot afford the same that he/she is buying/owns an unsafe gun and should buy something better. So please tell me, what makes a Hi Point an unsafe choice? We've read here of people who own them or shoot them and find them accurate and reliable. There are links to other sites that say the same thing. To me, if a gun is reliable and accurate it is not junk not matter what you paid for it, Telling someone that they bought a POS because it is beneath your level of acceptance is snobbery if the gun is safe, reliable and accurate. Hi Points have proven to be all that.

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There's a little bit of a meme on the internet now with people trying to intentionally destroy hipoints, and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that you can't load an overpressure round hot enough to blow one up. I'm not saying that other guns wouldn't stand up to the same abuse, but I feel pretty confident in saying that hipoints are absolutely safe, and possibly even idiot proof. I've also never heard any accusations that they go off when dropped or anything like that, which is more than can be said of some "quality" brands out there... cough cough, Remington, cough cough, Walker trigger, cough cough...sorry had a little frog in my throat there. What I was trying to say is that "quality" guns are always 100% safe.

CraigC said:

Do you carry a HiPoint? Do you trust your life to a HiPoint? Are HiPoints (or similarly priced handguns) all you own? If not, then stop calling people snobs just because they prefer something better. It's unproductive and usually inaccurate. I don't own a HiPoint, just as I don't buy cheap scopes, own a 30yr old beater car or wear Walmart brand clothes. I want better and I can afford better so I have better. Does that make me a snob? No. Wanting/having better things does not make you a snob. Recommending others do the same does not make you a snob. Thinking having better things makes you a better person makes you a snob. They're inanimate objects, having them doesn't enhance your character any more than wanting them impugns it. Big distinction. No one is doing that there, including the OP.



On that we agree. However, one shouldn't have to be starry eyed about them to utilize one. I'm a big believer in the 20v lithium power tools by Black & Decker, because they're relatively cheap. I don't have to delude myself into believing their the best there is to use them. I know who makes better tools and I have them for applications where that matters.


All this class war crap stems from the liberal belief in making people content with mediocrity, while punishing and shaming the successful.

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It looks there's a disconnect here. To be clear, it has never occurred to me to recommend a Hi Point to someone, and no, I do not carry one. I, like you am in the fortunate position to be able to afford better guns. There are, however, people who are not as fortunate as us, need a gun for self defense and can only afford a Hi Point or something similar. I hope you agree that we shouldn't look down on those people or insult them if we come across them.

Kaeto said:

Test Drive you sir, are a credit to gun owners everywhere.

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I wholehearted second that comment.

Out of my collection of over 100 hand guns there is 1 Hi-Point.

It has never, "Yes I said NEVER" failed to go bang regardless of whether I used factory or my own hand loads. Accuracy? Not up to being used in Bulls Eye competition or any other competition either.

BUT, it will hit minute of man every time, and that is without a doubt! After all we aren't shooting at someone breaking into your home at 50 yards away!

test drive wrote:
So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

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Thank you for sharing that with us as a reminder.

vito wrote:
I have heard a gun store clerk telling a tiny, frail, elderly woman that nothing less than a 45acp is acceptable for self defense, and when she said she wanted a revolver because she was told that they are more reliable, the clerk suggested a 44magnum!

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We see the same thing on this site all the time with responses to someone's post not addressing the OP's stated needs, but rather recommending what the responder would like to have if they were spending the OP's money.

Is a Hi-Point CHEAP or INEXPENSIVE? Two words that create far different impressions of a product.

CHEAP can mean the same thing as Inexpensive. However in the American lingo CHEAP most often is used described a product that is poorly made and or made of poor quality parts that causes the product not to live up to advertised claims or customer expectations.

INEXPENSIVE does NOT have the SAME meaning as CHEAP. A INEXPENSIVE product is made of sufficiently quality parts that meets the customers expectations.

Some posters are complaining that the Hi-Point was unreliable. My question is did they send the gun back to the manufacturer to be repaired under the LIFETIME warranty?

The main purpose of a self-defense gun is to function reliably and go bang with good quality ammunition while placing the shots close to the point of aim at the distance the shooter uses. Everything else is just refining the product to meet the needs of the user.Someone needing a gun that is going to be kept in the nightstand drawer for home defense and may be shot 50 rounds a year expectations are going to be different than someone that carries a gun for self-defense outside of the home and shoots more frequently.

Frankly after reading some of the responses on the recent thread "Do you break in your carry pistol with 500 rounds?" of how few rounds they shoot in their gun they will equally well served with a inexpensive handgun designed to last 2,000 - 3,000 rounds.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...l-with-500-rounds.817169/page-8#post-10538126

grampajack said:

and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that you can't load an overpressure round hot enough to blow one up

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GIS "Hi-point kaboom"

That should be all you need to know. Yes, Hi-points kaboom, just like every other gun. Hi-point discussions amuse me. They remind me in some ways of discussions about the FN Five-Seven... but in reverse. There's always a party that claims that Hi-Points are absolute junk comparable to having a holstered brick, and there's always a party that claims the Hi-Point can do everything any other gun can do just as well. No, and no. Is the Hi-point a good gun? No. No, it's not. Is it a terrible gun? No. No, it's not. Is it a dangerous gun to shoot? No, no it is not. What it is, is a good enough gun for people that can't afford to get themselves into something better. It's the Yugo of the gun world.

I see a lot of Hi-Points come through the office and they are the number 2 firearm that gets down checked for safety violations, comfortably far being the S&W SW9VE series. A lot of that is idiocy on the owner/operators part, but when you consistently see the same failures the conclusion is obvious, the design is flawed. Are they flaws that can't be overcome with awareness and prevention? No, but they are there none the less. I can't even count the number of Hi-Points that have come in missing either the front or rear sight. Broken safeties are the runner up. Although, this does bring up one of the Hi-Points best strengths, the customer service behind it. No joke, amazing customer service. I'm pretty sure that if you threw your Hi-Point into a wood chipper, they would fix it for you.

I still have my standing offer on the table. Anyone that completes my two day, 1K round defensive pistol course start to finish with a factory Hi-Point gets the course for free. It's never happened nor do I expect it to ever happen. A Hi-Point is good for a couple of shots every once in a while. Trying to do any high tempo training with it is just brutal.

Full discloser, I have a C9 and a 4095.

I view Hi Points as the AK-47 of the handgun world. They are unattractive, unbalanced, and heavy for what they are. They are also reliable, adequately accurate and inexpensive (although this last point is no longer true about AKs). And HiPoint has maybe the best customer service I've ever heard of.

As to the offer for a free course if they finish your course with a Hi Point, how many of your customers bring "better" guns that don't finish? If someone is paying for a thousand rounds of ammo, transport and lodging, taking time off of work or personal time, they probably won't take the offer, because it isn't just the cost of the course. And how many people who can only afford a Hi Point is going to pay for all of that, even if they and the gun can make it through?

But I'll pass along your generous offer to a Hi Point fan I know.

To the OP: Good catch - confidence is a necessary ingredient in success.

Nuclear said:

how many of your customers bring "better" guns that don't finish?

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Plenty. Let me tell you my opinion on the durability of the most recent line of Ruger plastic guns... but, that's another thread.

Nuclear said:

they probably won't take the offer, because it isn't just the cost of the course. And how many people who can only afford a Hi Point is going to pay for all of that, even if they and the gun can make it through?

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Oh, there have been people that have taken the offer up.

Not everyone that owns a Hi-Point does so because they can't afford or don't have a better gun. And not everyone that accepts a challenge is doing so for the reward.

Solomonson said:

test drive said:

Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault.

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Why was it "to be expected"? Because she used a Hi-Point pistol to qualify? What was the problem? Was it not properly sighted?

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He says it right in the previous sentence: He thinks she didn't do well because he caused her to lose confidence in her pistol.