Think before you speak

Well done test drive.

One of the single most expensive handguns I've ever bought, over $1K near the end of 1999, is a Kimber Ultra Elite (predecessor to the CDP). The extractor broke in less than 300 rounds. It was repaired and has been 100% ever since.

My Hi-Point carbine broke when I shoved a 15-round aftermarket magazine in it...VERY harshly. Hi-Point repaired it...and sent me an extra magazine, along with an apology for my troubles. Like the Kimber, it has been 100% ever since. It has also, ONLY, ever, had 2 single drops of oil on the bolt...as far as maintenance goes.

Sam

test drive said:

I'm a cwp instructor for SC and as I prepare for a class I'm reminded of something that happened to me back in 2009 in one of my first classes. The question of gun quality and what I thought of Hi Point firearms. I gave my opinion based on what I had seen through the years Wich was not a pretty picture. Unknown to me at the time a young lady that was taking the class had a Hi Point to use for weapons qualification. She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight. Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault. After everyone else shot I ask her to try again with one of my range revolvers a older but very nice Rossi M88. We went over some pointers and she had no problems passing. Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

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That was the nicest post I have seen on a gun forum. As I know you know, your kindness is self-rewarding. You lost nothing; you created great good.

CraigC said:

Wrong. The truth is the truth, regardless of how anyone feels about it, good or bad. IMHO, people should have all the information possible, even when it's not what they want to hear. This is only a question of delivery. Nothing wrong with owning or using a cheap gun but do so with your eyes open.

I'm sorry but calling someone a snob because they're honest about cheap guns is like calling them a racist because they don't believe in welfare. I'm tired of this politically correct nonsense and this is just political correctness in the guise of a class war. As if getting offended or hurt feelings are the worst things that could happen. Getting yourself and/or your family killed is a whole lot worse than getting your feelings hurt. I'd rather someone hurt my feelings telling me I bought a piece of junk and needed a better tool than to placate me with false confidence in a tool that might not get the job done. Too much at stake here. I applaud the OP for doing a good deed but to the above quoted post, this "snob" would buy the lady in question an entry-level S&W or Ruger before I'd lie to her about the HiPoint.

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I feel confident that the lady, long ago, understood what OP did for her (and did quietly). Hence the regular X-mas cards.

It's how some people can only afford a Mosin rifle for defense and others tell them relentlessly how much better an AR-15 would be.

Well you have no idea what that person may be going through and who they might need to support.

And you know what they say about the man (or woman) with only one gun...

Cooldill said:

It's how some people can only afford a Mosin rifle for defense and others tell them relentlessly how much better an AR-15 would be.

Well you have no idea what that person may be going through and who they might need to support.

And you know what they say about the man (or woman) with only one gun...

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While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, Cooldill, that "man (or woman) with only one gun" thing assumes the person has had the time and resources to practice and learn how to use that gun well. It doesn't assume that person did practice and learn to use that gun well because it's the only gun they could afford. My suspicions are that in this day in age, the opposite is true.
IMO, that "Beware of the person with one gun..." thing is just a cliché. A good one, but just a cliché.

.308 Norma said:

While I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, Cooldill, that "man (or woman) with only one gun" thing assumes the person has had the time and resources to practice and learn how to use that gun well. It doesn't assume that person did practice and learn to use that gun well because it's the only gun they could afford. My suspicions are that in this day in age, the opposite is true.
IMO, that "Beware of the person with one gun..." thing is just a cliché. A good one, but just a cliché.

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Tooshay.

test drive said:

I'm a cwp instructor for SC and as I prepare for a class I'm reminded of something that happened to me back in 2009 in one of my first classes. The question of gun quality and what I thought of Hi Point firearms. I gave my opinion based on what I had seen through the years Wich was not a pretty picture. Unknown to me at the time a young lady that was taking the class had a Hi Point to use for weapons qualification. She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight. Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault. After everyone else shot I ask her to try again with one of my range revolvers a older but very nice Rossi M88. We went over some pointers and she had no problems passing. Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

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You are good man.

I have a friend who works part time at my Dad's small business. He cuts many yards in the summer time, and when not working for my Dad works part time for another small business cleaning at night. He has a high school education, is divorced and paying child support and works his butt off. He lives in a bad neighborhood with a drug house next door where lots of wild scenes occur. He had $100 saved up for a gun and bought a new hi-point from a local gun/pawn shop, he knows the owner, and asked me about them. I told him the hi-points are heavy, clunky, I have never shot one but from every thing I have read and from people I know who own one, they say they go bang reliably, have you practiced with it? Yes it works and I can hit my target. Put you some hollow points through it and make sure it functions and you are good to go.

The hi-point is all he can afford. This has nothing to do with political correctness, just common courtesy. I told him the truth as I knew it, I didn't do it acting like a jaskass. I didn't trash his choice, just the truth and he was fine with what I said. Had his piece not worked reliably I would have suggested he trade it for a break top .12 gauge shotty, something he could afford. It is easy to say spend more money and buy brand X, but when you don't have it to spend you get what you can afford. If he had a Bryco and it worked reliably and he could afford it he is better off than nothing. A snob is a snob is a snob, whether it is guns, cars, houses etc... The original poster did good.

I recall when I took my SC CWP class years ago. Before we left the classroom to go to the range, the instructor asked if anyone was planning to take the qualification with a Hi-Point or any other cheap gun, because they had a loaner Glock 22 to use instead.

Curious that the instructor didn't question any of the many rimfires many students were using for the qualifications. There was a guy with a Browning Buck Mark in the lane next to me whose pistol was constantly malfunctioning and holding up the class.

^^ Heck, I'm sure we could find some instructors who would not have approved the Rossi revolver the OP traded to the client. I'm glad he wasn't one of them.

TomJ said:

It looks there's a disconnect here. To be clear, it has never occurred to me to recommend a Hi Point to someone, and no, I do not carry one. I, like you am in the fortunate position to be able to afford better guns. There are, however, people who are not as fortunate as us, need a gun for self defense and can only afford a Hi Point or something similar. I hope you agree that we shouldn't look down on those people or insult them if we come across them.

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Then by your logic, you are a snob too. My whole point is that people should be aware of the exact truth that you too accept. That there are better tools than HiPoints. The mere sharing of information. No insults, no judgments. Who said anything about looking down on people??? We're talking about guns, not judging people, which is exactly what you're doing when you throw around the word "snob". Of course, popular culture and our former president make that fashionable. I don't know why people attach so much emotion to their choice in equipment. When I was young, I was ignorant about such things and bought cheap scopes. I ascribed to the idea that you get what you can afford. Guess what? Those cheap scopes failed me. In effect, I wasted enough money on cheap scopes to have bought a couple good ones. It seems that everyone MUST learn this lesson the hard way, which is unfortunate and EXACTLY the reason for the Benjamin Franklin quote in my signature.

Cooldill said:

It's how some people can only afford a Mosin rifle for defense and others tell them relentlessly how much better an AR-15 would be.

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Regardless of what's happening in someone's life or their financial situation, people are entitled to the truth. They shouldn't be beat over the head with it or be insulted over it either. Should a budding mechanic labor under the illusion that his cheap Chinese tools are the best thing since sliced bread or should he know that he should be planning on upgrading whenever possible? Same concept.

sarge83 said:

It is easy to say spend more money and buy brand X, but when you don't have it to spend you get what you can afford.

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What people can and can't afford is often a matter of choice. Those who can't "afford" more can also not "afford" to waste money on crap either. I go round and round about this with one of my friends who is undeniably what you would call "cheap". He's not frugal or careful with his money, he's just cheap. He'll often waste a dollar to save a dime. I've seen him pay $30 for something because it was cheap when he could've paid $60 for something good. The $30 item didn't last very long but the $60 item would've lasted for years, way out of proportion to the cost. Which was the wiser investment? If you don't have $60 to spend, you don't have $30 to waste.

CraigC said:

I'm sorry but calling someone a snob because they're honest about cheap guns is like calling them a racist because they don't believe in welfare.

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Quoted again for posterity.

And telling someone who bought a Hi Point that they bought a POS, because you wouldn't be caught dead with one, is being a snob. Hi Points may be inexpensive but have a history of being a viable solution for someone who cannot afford anything more. Making someone feel bad for a choice they made due to finances isn't the best way to point out "the exact truth", as you put it. You have failed to point out the "exact truth" of buying a Hi Point.

CraigC said:

That there are better tools than HiPoints

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Your words. So, for about $150 please share the "exact truth" about her being able to protect herself and please do away with the "find a nice, used police trade-in S&W with cosmetic issues but still works great" line. How is someone who is ignorant in the gun world supposed to do this? I know, she can go down to her local gun shop and trust the guy behind the counter to sell her the best gun he has for $150. Well, come to think of it, he may have done just that with the Hi Point.

For the record, I have never owned a Hi Point nor do I plan to ever buy one. I have been fortunate. However, if my world came crashing down and all I had was $150 to buy a gun for self defense I would have no problem buying a Hi Point.

larryh1108 said:

And telling someone who bought a Hi Point that they bought a POS, because you wouldn't be caught dead with one, is being a snob.

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And who did that? Seems to me t hat all the character judgments are coming from your side.

larryh1108 said:

Making someone feel bad for a choice they made due to finances isn't the best way to point out "the exact truth", as you put it.

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And who did that?

larryh1108 said:

Your words.

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So you agree?

larryh1108 said:

I have never owned a Hi Point nor do I plan to ever buy one.

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larryh1108 said:

So, for about $150 please share the "exact truth" about her being able to protect herself...

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I never said there were better options for $150. Or even implied it. Isn't that the point?

larryh1108 said:

How is someone who is ignorant in the gun world supposed to do this?

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I don't know, how did you do it? How did YOU come to the conclusion that there are better options than the HiPoint? I did it by learning all I could, one step at a time. Why would you deny that knowledge to others?

larryh1108 said:

However, if my world came crashing down and all I had was $150 to buy a gun for self defense I would have no problem buying a Hi Point.

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Nor would I but I would also be doing it with both eyes open and saving my pennies toward something better. Which is all I suggest, having the knowledge that there are better tools for the job and the commitment to obtain them. What's wrong with that? I think the lives of myself and my loved ones are worth whatever I have to do to equip myself the best way I can. If I had to walk to town to get a gallon of milk to save gas, pick up beer cans, give up cable TV, cell phone service, take odd jobs or work weekends, that's what I'd do. Been there, done that. I paid for my first reloading press by working a job I really didn't want to, with nothing but work release convicts. You guys want to act as if anyone who thinks one should own something better than a HiPoint is a trust fund brat. I'm talking about a $250-$300 S&W or Ruger but you act like I'm suggesting a $5000 custom 1911 made from meteorites. Yet none of you owns or carries a HiPoint, which makes you kinda hypocritical.

CraigC said:

this "snob" would buy the lady in question an entry-level S&W or Ruger before I'd lie to her about the HiPoint.

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This is what it is all about.
This is what you posted.
It is obvious that you don't get the gyst of this thread.
There is no need for me to further justify my comments since we seem to be talking about different things.
I get the thread, you don't.

test drive:

It was really nice to read about your actions on that day of the class, and your favor to her is very commendable.

You did right giving her a pistol she felt confident with. I am curious what your experience with Hi Point firearms has been. I was under the impression that they were cheap & ugly but worked. I came close to buying one once There was a guy at a gun show with a pile of them NIB selling them for $99 IIRC. This was about 10 years ago. I thought about it for a minute & decided not to buy though because I didn't really want one. I would have been buying it just because it was cheap.

I never put down anyone's personal choice for a self defense firearm. I don't walk in their shoes. Hi Points are cheap and that is probably one of the most affordable guns. Despite jokes, a Hi Point is STILL better than a stick. Or a knife. Whenever I taught classes, I taught how to shoot better on anything brought. I spent lots of time on Google and youtube learning how to mess around with different types of firearms to teach other students. I learned how to take apart a Glock long before I ever saw one or shot one.

Good on you OP for stepping up and showing a good Samaritan face of the gun community.

CraigC said:

. . . but I would also be doing it with both eyes open and saving my pennies toward something better . . . .

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Pardon me for asking, but what if time were a critical factor?

If a woman on the lower economic scale (i.e, poor) just left an abusive relationship and needed protection now, as in that night? How would "saving pennies" work in that situation?

If it right to rob someone of their confidence just because they buy low-end off the bat?

From my own perspective, the guns involved are secondary to the original post. Something was said by the OP that caused a set-back to the woman. OP took action to correct this and restore her confidence. Teaching skills and instilling confidence in those abilities is the goal of every teachers, trainer or instructor..

Test Drive Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for your kindness to this young lady and reminder to us all in the thread title. I have personally owned and carried a Hi-point C9. Due to it's utter reliability I never got to test the warranty or customer service. Only mantenance I did was swab the bore, spray on some rem-oil and wipe it off. I never dissasembled it. I probably put 2 or 3k round through it. It served for a period of years when I felt like I could not afford another pistol. When I could, I sold it (for 60$, I think I paid 99$, so not too bad of a loss) and bought a better gun. Several others I know have done the same. I do not personally think they are any uglier than a glock. They are both blocky and black. They do have all the ergonomics of a brick though.....

Good on you OP.

There are too many Ford, Chevy, Dodge, M70, M700, and M77 debates in the world.

test drive said:

Please this was not meant to be a "stab" at high point.

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I didn't take it that way, and it looks like most others didn't either. We've all misspoke, but you went above and beyond what you needed to do to make it right. You did a pretty generous thing for that lady.

BullSlinger said:

I have been shooting handguns for a bunch of years. Forty five plus and have owned low end and high end guns.
Ever hear of RG? Cheap as they come, brand new cost me $23.95, saw a friends fall apart while shooting. I own several Colts, S&W, Kimber Ruger, Glock, Spring Field and bunch of others.You get the idea. I also own several Hi Point Pistols and Carbines.

The Hi Points I have picked up in the past few years. They are ugly, they are inexpensive, a bit clunky and cause snickers to come out of the mouths of my shooting companions while on the range. I have found them to be accurate, and very reliable. I have one in the truck and one in the boat. If they are stolen from their vehicle safes I'm not out a lot of money. They are a lot of fun to shoot and if I happen to get it muddy or filled with sand I don't have a stroke cuz it's not a thousand dollar gun or a collectors item. And when it comes down to it I would stake my life on one if needed for self defense. Hi Point also has a life time warranty.

The quality of a fire arm has nothing to do with the price paid, what happens to be Tac-Ti-Cool at the moment or is printed in the paid for reviews in the assorted gun magazines in circulation.

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That has been my experience also. I think most people who bash them haven't owned one. I talked to a person in the firearms manufacturing business, he told me that 90+ percent of guns will never have more than 200 rounds through them. The Hi Point will easily go though that. They probably won't make it 5000 rounds but they are a good gun for people who can't afford a Smith, Ruger or other higher brand guns.

test drive said:

I'm a cwp instructor for SC and as I prepare for a class I'm reminded of something that happened to me back in 2009 in one of my first classes. The question of gun quality and what I thought of Hi Point firearms. I gave my opinion based on what I had seen through the years Wich was not a pretty picture. Unknown to me at the time a young lady that was taking the class had a Hi Point to use for weapons qualification. She was a single mom that had left her abusive husband and moved to SC. She worked 3 jobs to support her and her daughter. She worked at the grocery store, night shift at the gas station on the bad side of town and cleaned houses in between. She had little education and those were her only type options not that there's anything wrong with that but money was tight. Later when we got to weapons qual she came up to me and apologized for having such a "Bad gun" and I knew at that moment I had shattered her self confidence after all she had overcome to get to where she was. Well as to be expected she did not do very well with qualification and a lot of it was my fault. After everyone else shot I ask her to try again with one of my range revolvers a older but very nice Rossi M88. We went over some pointers and she had no problems passing. Knowing she needed protection for her and her daughter and after seeing the grin on her face I had to go a step further to correct my wrong. I told her I was looking for a Hi Point as a demonstrator for class and would she do a one for one trade , my revolver for her used HI Point. And she was thrilled. Not being professional that day cost me but I slept very good that night. And to this day every Christmas without fail we get a card from her and her daughter. So next time your bad mouthing someone's equipment or whatever stop and be professional.

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...You Sir Are a Grand Example...................of a Gentleman.....