Help Selecting Extended Long Range Caliber

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My advice to get you started is buy a cheap AR, put a 3-9 or 4-12 scope on it (don't go real cheap, a Leupold VX 1, Nikon, something like that) and install a decent trigger. Rock River is said to make a decent, inexpensive match trigger. I'd also install a basic A2 stock, nothing fancy. That'll get you out to 400+ yds without embarrassing yourself. Once you get sighted in, get off the bench and on the ground. Shoot it a lot. Make every shot count. Shoot at least once a week, more often is better. In a year you'll be a pretty good shot.
 
.243 is a good caliber but many commercial rifles have slow twist rates that do not stabilize heavy bullets that let you stretch way out. The other down side is barrel life, it is short compared to others

6.5 Creed has a lot of market support, hornady makes good ammo, lapua makes brass now, and barrel life is pretty good around 3000 rds

308 win is a very reliable way to go, that is what i built my target rifle on, but it runs out of steam around 1000-1200yds unless you handload some very expensive warner flatlines at $1.5 each
 
@jmar... Nobody ever learned how to shoot from a book. They have their place, but nothing can ever replace trigger time.

Take that 10/22 out to 50yrds, get your groups as small as you can, and start working out to 100yrds and beyond.
 
The fact that OP doesn't own a centerfire rifle and has limited shooting experience was missing from the information in the OP. I would now recommend walking away from extreme long range and the associated oddball guns for a bit (do you even have a place to shoot 1500y?) and buying a fast twist 5.56/.223 and learning to shoot it out to 1000y after learning to shoot your .22 out to 200y. Then you'll be in a better place to evaluate true LR and ELR rifles if you still want to go there.
 
I think you're on the right track, but there is a learning curve to reloading too, it sounds like you would be well served with a 223 bolt gun and start reloading ... Economy an all counts. You could even buy 1000 rounds of reloadable ammo and save your brass for when your ready to start reloading.

223 Match grade ammo is close to $1.25 a round, however you can load ammo, tuned for your gun for as little as 18-20 cents a round ... In the long run, I've never really saved any money reloading, because I could shoot 2-3 times more.

An instructor to.d me once, to know the limits of your rifle and ammo, and when you could shoot to the best of the ability of your equipment, it's time to get better equipment ... For example, if your training with a gun and ammo that is capable of shooting a 3" group at 500 yards, and you can do that consistently it's time to move up.

Everybody has to start somewhere, but you'll never reach your goal unless you start ... On the other hand, if your exactions are too high you can get discouraged before you have the basics down.
 
You have to walk before you run. I've never shot over about 600 yards because that's the longest distance I have available but even that is a whole different thing than shooting 100 yard groups. You need a good 223 bolt action varmint gun like a savage 12fv with something like a vortex viper 6.5-20 scope so you can start learning the fundamentals. Even with cheap light varmint bullets a 223 does just fine at 600. A 223 will allow you to actually afford enough ammo to learn with. A 300 win mag would be a waste of money right now.
 
jmar said:
Thanks for your feedback everyone, i would love to handload, but there's no point in buying all the equipment before I buy the gun, I'd have a bunch of bullets with no gun to shoot them through. Same goes for practicing, I would love to practice but I literally have no gun to practice with other than my Ruger 10/22 which I have already been practicing with. I'm not going to just go out and aim at 100 yards and expect to hit it, i am currently studying all the things required to make those shots and even after I got all the research out of the way I'm going to start at 300 yards and work my way up until I'm comfortable.

As for the caliber i'm getting so much mixed responses, I agree in the thinking that I should get a caliber with a longer barrel life and cheaper shelf ammo for a gun to learn on, so what is the differences between .243, 6.5, and .308? I heard many good things about .243 I thought it would be recommended more.
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At 975 yds with a 10 mph crosswind, my .243 sgk will leave the station at 2932fps, and drift 103 inches, impact velocity estimate at 1195. Remington 20" full contour barrel. The .243 WILL stretch a ways out there, but as others have said, you need the right barrel. I also agree with others that you need to practice with more realistic goals first. A lot. I shoot varmints and targets at distance often enough that deer at 300 yds has become boring. I've been avidly shooting for 20 years, handloading will make a huge difference for sure, but first, stretch your .22 as far as you can as well as you can. THEN grab a fast twist .223 and make your goal 200 yds, if you can keep your shots under 3 moa, then work for 1.5. Then work out to 300 with a similar goal, then 400. By the time you can stay sub 2 moa at 400 yds, you'll BEGIN to comprehend the reason handloads keep coming up in conversation. You'll also learn what WASN'T in your research. A good 6.5 or 7mm have something the .30 doesn't, lower recoil higher b.c. the .243 does too, but with lighter weights (less inertia) worse barrel life, and lacking the proper barrel for a true longer range purposed bullet. For my personal choice, the 6.5-284 Norma is a winner, but I handload. Starting at 300 yds is novel, but try getting sub moa at 100 first with a mentor helping with your form.
 
Taking into account what youve posted so far Jmar, and the excellent suggestions made by others, ive only got a little to add.

Because you do NOT handload, you will either have to buy a caliber that your local shops stock good quality ammo for, ask them to special order stuff (which most will do just need to give them a heads up), or order online.
If your rifle happens to like it Most decent hunting ammo will be plenty accurate enough for learning out to 300-400 or so, and the cheap white box stuff MIGHT be good for that far out as well. Once you start NEEDING the higher BC bullets, youll be looking at match grade ammo for the most part, tho there are still some hunting loads that will hold their own way out there, especially the ablr, and eld loaded rounds (there are others these just what im familiar with).
That leads me to suggest taking a long hard look at "standard" match cartridges, the 6.5 CM, the .308, and possibly the 6mm CM if ammo becomes more available. Given the specified usage id say your best bet is the .308, tho the others offer a ballistic advantage.

Now for shooting 1500yds, you wont be doing that without loading your own ammo unless your willing to spend alot of money, or get incredibly lucky. You also wont be doing that without ALOT of practice at shorter ranges (most of that will be in regards to form and reading wind). Most likely by the time your ready to take a shot that far out and expect a hit, youll have purchased a MUCH more specific rifle system, so i wouldnt worry too much about it right now.

A heavy .300 would be an option, and again it dosent sound like you expect to have to carry it much unless said shtf happens (in which case its very likely well all have much more pressing concerns that how heavy or rifle is). Ive had 8.5-9lb .300s and they are brutal from the bench, but ok from any field position sans prone on pokey things. the heavier 10-12lb .300s Ive shot were very comfortable but did tend to move around quite a bit unless braked.
The only really heavy .30 magnum i shot was a custom built .30-378 single shot, launching ridiculously long heavy bullets from a 32" no taper barrel, recoil was light and making first round hits at 600-700yds was actually pretty easy. If i were dedicated at shooting 1K+ id likely be shooting something like that.
 
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Have you shopped around for Match quality ammo yet? That might offer you some insight as to which path you should take...being as Match .223 is going to run a buck per round or more, 308 up to $1.50 or so but might be more easily found and the other calibers mentioned likely difficult to find or pricey in comparison. You WILL be shooting a lot before you get good...so getting something that can take some rounds (that you can afford) makes good sense.

I've only shot to 1000 yds...and that was with an Armalite AR-50 and 750 A-Max handloads and it's a whole 'nother ball game compared to 600. The A-Max bullet is one of the best as far as wind drift bucking is concerned...and when the wind was calm the rifle would easily group about 6" but the wind blew it all over the target (and one over) and my inexperience didn't allow me to know how to compensate for it. Very frustrating.:(

If you're lucky you might find ammo over the counter that will shoot well in whatever rifle you choose to get...but I've always been able to out-do that stuff with handloads which also lets you shoot more for the same cash outlay. You DON'T save any money hand loading...you just shoot more and more accurately. The suggestions to walk before worrying about running are sage advice.:)
 
Varminterror said:
I might say, I do agree with Bart's assertion about the enhanced bedding contact for square actions, however,I do remind myself occasionally: many precision records have been fired with tubes.
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Good points.

When bullets heavier than 150 to 160 grains are shot, this is the main cause of barreled action torque that twists round receivers in their bedding. This phenomenon wasn't noticed until very accurate 30 caliber bullets became available in the late 1950's. Meanwhile, Remington actions were great with lighter bullets. When they were epoxied in square bottom sleeves, they stayed in place with heavy bullets.
 
One more vote for .223 bolt action - teach yourself to shoot distance in stages accuracy is the key here, if you cant consistently at 500 with a decent 223, then, you are wasting money shooting anything (6.5, 308, etc) further out in my opinion. If you just want to fling lead at steel, and walk it in, that's cool, if you want first round hits at 1000 plus, then you will need lots of trigger time and consistent ammo to make sure you eliminate the variables.

As for reloading, I wasted years not doing so because it was "too expensive" or I didnt understand it, or it was potentially dangerous, I didnt have a dedicated space to reload, or whatever. I reload everything I shoot now except 22/22mag

Sit down with someone that actually reloads, preferably and old timer who has had to "make due" with a single stage press and have them show you what your really need as a minimum to get started

For rifle, a decent digital GEM scale for $25 will get the job done, a single stage press (RCBS partner - $80) , a funnel and some rifle dies, a lube pad, a few other hand held tools, etc. Reloading will open accuracy doors for you, and you can load match grade ammo, for about the cost of bulk stuff of the shelf at the LGS.

If you cant afford to buy the gear to reload, then long range shooting costs may limit you. Long range bullets can be $ per round not pennies. Even target 223 rounds (69 grain bt sierras for example) can cost ~$.40 a round to reload, 6.5 match bullets are over a $1 a round, so a typical day at the range can be $200 or more in ammo cost on bigger calibers.

YMMV

Dave
 
None of the calibers you listed will be supersonic at 1,500 yards. Just something to think about.
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there's no turnkey solution for this. Extreme long range is a handloading/custom rifle game.
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Hornady offers 143 and 140 gr match bullets in 6.5 Creedmoor that will still be supersonic to over 1700 yards. They are reasonably priced at around $30/box.

Ruger offers both the Predator and Ruger Precision rifle in 6.5. Both are turn key 1500 yard rifles. I paid less than $400 OTD for my Predator, the Precision rifle is under $1000. I can see no difference in accuracy and no reason to pay for the Precision rifle. Recoil is in the 12 ft lb range compared to 17-18 for 308 and 30-31 ft lbs for a 300 WM in standard weight rifles.

6.5 Predators at 1 mile+. This is a rifle under 8 lbs scoped.


 
jmr40 said:
Hornady offers 143 and 140 gr match bullets in 6.5 Creedmoor that will still be supersonic to over 1700 yards.
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Those bullets will need to leave faster than 3100 fps to stay supersonic through 1700 yards in standard conditions. So says Sierra's software.

Hornady says both leave at about 2700 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I don't think one can drive them 3100 fps with safe pressures from a 6.5 Creedmoor case.
 
Bart B. said:
Those bullets will need to leave faster than 3100 fps to stay supersonic through 1700 yards in standard conditions. So says Sierra's software.

Hornady says both leave at about 2700 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I don't think one can drive them 3100 fps with safe pressures from a 6.5 Creedmoor case.
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Best ive gotten from my 22 is 2800 with the eldxs, and those were pretty crispy loads.
 
For those interested in 22 caliber bullets from the .223 Rem case at long range, note the US Army Rifle Team gave up shooting them in 1000 yard NRA service rifle matches some 5 years ago. 308 ammo from M1's and M1A's out scored them over all. So their 22 caliber AR platforms were given up in favor of AR10's in 308 Win. They no longer had M14NM's available to shoot good 308 Win ammo.
 
Varminterror said:
The problem with @FL-NC's comments is the fact the OP isn't hunting. Energy bleed isn't a concern when you're killing paper. Snipers have to kill people or disable equipment at range, but paper shooters don't really have that problem.

It's a lot easier to play with other cartridges at ELR, but I can push the 115dtac with a .585 BC (think David published a .600+, but several of us have trued to .585) at 2850fps in a 26" 1:8" barrel. I'm still supersonic at 1500yrds, barely (I'm at 1225ft). I run less drop with that load than I do with a 178 BTHP in .308win, with a touch less powder and a lot less recoil. The downside for a hunter is lacking killing power. The downside for a non-hunter is terrible barrel life.
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I run a 243 ackley in class running the new dtac, it's a solid performer!
 
Everyone has given really good recommendations. Now knowing you are starting out and do not have alot of distance shooting experience, I would definitely go with light recoiling rifle. A big magnum could make you regret your choice. A .22lr target rifle will give you excellent trigger time and teach trigger control and follow through, due to lag time. A .223 is a great beginner round! I feel a .223 bolt rifle is pointless when there are amazingly accurate ar rifles out there that are affordable. I run a white oak upper on a rock river lower and it's spot on accurate to 700ish yards. This setup is around $1000ish for the rifle. I use a whidden rifle in 243 ackley pushing 115 dtacs at 600/1000yd fclass. A savage lrp 6.5 creedmoor is stupid accurate and imho the best factory rifle out there. It will easily get you beyond 1000yds. I run a full custom 6.5-06 for extended range. If I didn't reload as you say you don't, I'd go with a .223 woa ar or the savage lrp 6.5 creedmoor. You won't be disappointed!
 
Another option is to find someone with some of these rifles and see if they will let you shoot them. You may find that you don't like shooting a 300 WM...
 
I went out to the range today, I took a borrowed 22-250 Ruger. I started at 100 yards and had no problems there. I moved to 200 then to 300 with no issues. Then I put some shots on the 400 and 600 plates and hit about 50% of the time. Went right to the 1000 yard target, held over halfway down my scope and took a few shots. I hit it with in 3 shots. Then I proceeded to shoot about 20-30 rounds at it hitting it maybe every 3-5 shots. Lots of fun, I truly enjoy long range shooting. Keep in mind the 600 yard plate looked like it was 2 or more feet in diameter and the 1000 yard target is a steel cutout of a bison so nothing I did was impressive. In fact I put a paper target at 50 yards and did some .22 LR groups with my 10/22 and got about 1.5 inch groups, aka i'm not a good shot yet. 2-3 MOA accuracy is common for me and about my average. I did do one 5 shot group where 3 shots were all touching making a ragged hole but the other 2 were like an inch away... Anyways enough rambling, my synopsis of this practice session is that i am not ready for the .300 Win Mag yet. The recoil might make me develop a flinch and I cannot afford enough ammo to get practice from it. So we can cross that one off.

Thank you for all your suggestions, most of them are suggesting me guns and calibers to buy but the thing is I can only afford a gun purchase every few years so i want to make sure then gun will make me smile. And I really have been wanting a long range rifle so I don't want to postpone it any longer. I see a ton of suggestions for a .223 bolt gun, since I have very few guns and can only afford a few of them I would rather get a .223 AR. And when i get an AR eventually I want it setup like a short door kicking rifle not a DMR type gun, so there's kind of a conundrum. A .223 bolt gun seems like a fun piece for a large collection, but I really want an all purpose type round for my precision rifle.

What I learned today is that I need a lot of practice, and since I'm so inconsistent I don't need target style bullets that are made to shave off fractions of an inch in group size when I cant even get a sub MOA group yet. So unless they make cheap bulk 6.5 ammo I think I will rule that one out.

I absolutely loved shooting the 22-250 today, the bullets shot straight as a laser and even at 1000 yards i only had to aim a little bit above the bison with my 10x scope. So reading about the .243 got me excited knowing that it is better in every way than a 22-250, with I imagine not to much recoil. And the only other caliber I can think of that fits my desire is .308. But since it was reccomend so much I will do some research on the .223 round, maybe i'm missing something about or I'm biased because I just think of it as the wimpy AR round. Anyways this thread has kind of switched to help me pick an ELR round to just a 1000 yard max round, when I get more skilled I will get a .300 Win Mag but for now here is my new criteria.

Needs to have very very cheap ammo available for it to practice, but also very good ammo for when I get better. And not be some obscure caliber only found online ore reloaded yourself.

Barrel life does not matter at all to me, here's why. I am getting a Remington 700 ADL, it is a $400 gun. The sooner I wear the cheap barrel out the better so I can get a bull barrel for it. Essentially if it wears out in 3000 rounds, chances are by then I will have either given up or learned to be accurate and wont need to put so many rounds through the new match barrel.

Must be able to reach 1000 yards, I just enjoy shooting that far and don't want something that'll make a rainbow at 500.

So all i can think of is .243, .308, and the recommended .223. Maybe I should not make it so hard and just get a .308. I've never shot a .308 or .243 how bad is the recoil? The largest rifle cartridge I have shot a 7.62x54r Mosin so I have that to compare it to.
 
Cheapest commercial ammo I've seen is 223@ about .27 per round. 3000 rounds of 308 is .60 a round. That's what? 1800 our so?
Shooting out a barrel? On a budget? Best of luck.
Practice out to 200yds with your 22. Or buy what you want to shoot.
It's your money, there is no magic caliber, there is no way to get proficient at distance short of practice.
I'm not trying to be mean, it seems like your looking for someone to say buy this combo, shoot great.
Lots of good calibers out there, pick one, look at a single stage reloading kit, run the numbers on bulk vs reloaded prices, see your break even point. It might surprise you. I've shot many guns in different calibers, stock fit makes a bigger difference than caliber(to an extent), my wife has a most uncomfortable 308, to me, she loves the Damn thing.
 
jmar said:
I went out to the range today, I took a borrowed 22-250 Ruger. I started at 100 yards and had no problems there. I moved to 200 then to 300 with no issues. Then I put some shots on the 400 and 600 plates and hit about 50% of the time. Went right to the 1000 yard target, held over halfway down my scope and took a few shots. I hit it with in 3 shots. Then I proceeded to shoot about 20-30 rounds at it hitting it maybe every 3-5 shots. Lots of fun, I truly enjoy long range shooting. Keep in mind the 600 yard plate looked like it was 2 or more feet in diameter and the 1000 yard target is a steel cutout of a bison so nothing I did was impressive. In fact I put a paper target at 50 yards and did some .22 LR groups with my 10/22 and got about 1.5 inch groups, aka i'm not a good shot yet. 2-3 MOA accuracy is common for me and about my average. I did do one 5 shot group where 3 shots were all touching making a ragged hole but the other 2 were like an inch away... Anyways enough rambling, my synopsis of this practice session is that i am not ready for the .300 Win Mag yet. The recoil might make me develop a flinch and I cannot afford enough ammo to get practice from it. So we can cross that one off.

Thank you for all your suggestions, most of them are suggesting me guns and calibers to buy but the thing is I can only afford a gun purchase every few years so i want to make sure then gun will make me smile. And I really have been wanting a long range rifle so I don't want to postpone it any longer. I see a ton of suggestions for a .223 bolt gun, since I have very few guns and can only afford a few of them I would rather get a .223 AR. And when i get an AR eventually I want it setup like a short door kicking rifle not a DMR type gun, so there's kind of a conundrum. A .223 bolt gun seems like a fun piece for a large collection, but I really want an all purpose type round for my precision rifle.

What I learned today is that I need a lot of practice, and since I'm so inconsistent I don't need target style bullets that are made to shave off fractions of an inch in group size when I cant even get a sub MOA group yet. So unless they make cheap bulk 6.5 ammo I think I will rule that one out.

I absolutely loved shooting the 22-250 today, the bullets shot straight as a laser and even at 1000 yards i only had to aim a little bit above the bison with my 10x scope. So reading about the .243 got me excited knowing that it is better in every way than a 22-250, with I imagine not to much recoil. And the only other caliber I can think of that fits my desire is .308. But since it was reccomend so much I will do some research on the .223 round, maybe i'm missing something about or I'm biased because I just think of it as the wimpy AR round. Anyways this thread has kind of switched to help me pick an ELR round to just a 1000 yard max round, when I get more skilled I will get a .300 Win Mag but for now here is my new criteria.

Needs to have very very cheap ammo available for it to practice, but also very good ammo for when I get better. And not be some obscure caliber only found online ore reloaded yourself.

Barrel life does not matter at all to me, here's why. I am getting a Remington 700 ADL, it is a $400 gun. The sooner I wear the cheap barrel out the better so I can get a bull barrel for it. Essentially if it wears out in 3000 rounds, chances are by then I will have either given up or learned to be accurate and wont need to put so many rounds through the new match barrel.

Must be able to reach 1000 yards, I just enjoy shooting that far and don't want something that'll make a rainbow at 500.

So all i can think of is .243, .308, and the recommended .223. Maybe I should not make it so hard and just get a .308. I've never shot a .308 or .243 how bad is the recoil? The largest rifle cartridge I have shot a 7.62x54r Mosin so I have that to compare it to.
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If you're set on running out to 1000 yds, I would get the .243, recoil is QUITE manageable, ammo is not AS cheap but with my Remington, I can put the cheap federal fusions through the ribs of a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yds, soooooo don't necessarily need the more expensive match grade stuff till way down the road. The .223 is a bit slower than the the -.250 but stretching it as far as you can would be as educational as shooting the fast 6mm at 1000, if you just wanna hit that big bison with your friends get the .243. ETA that getting a <6" group at 600 yds with a .223 is MUCH more impressive than dinging a plate the size of a small house at 1000 yds with ANY cartridge. I can't think of ANYONE who got a few lucky hits at distance and then started popping oranges at 500 yds, getting your groups tightened up would be a bigger priority for me than hitting a GIANT chunk of steel no matter where you set it. The reason people keep saying try your .22 at 200 yds, is because THAT will educate you about ALL the basics of elr shooting with very little cost, wind drift, trajectory and form will be VERY evidenced on your target.
 
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jmar said:
I've never shot a .308 or .243 how bad is the recoil? The largest rifle cartridge I have shot a 7.62x54r Mosin so I have that to compare it to.
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About the same as your Mosin.

Note the 308's got twice the accurate barrel life of the 243. And much easier to handload good ammo for because it is a way "over-bore" cartridge. The 308 is an "at - bore" or "bore capacity" cartridge. Such cartridges burn one grain of powder for each square millimeter of the bore's cross sectional area. A 308's bore capacity is about 46 grains of powder as it's bore area is about 46 square millimeters. Twice bore capacity charges of powder typically have 1/4th the barrel life as those with bore capacity powder charges.
 
Here is a thought for you - budget minded, Savage 12fv, very accurate for a budget gun from what I have heard, the Ruger American predator is also supposed to be pretty accurate fro a budget gun.

Savage 12FV, $419, bolt action, accu-trigger, varmint (bull barrel) can be had in 22-250, 223, 308, and 204 (I would get the 223 or 308 if I was new - 223 will be cheaper to shoot and have less recoil). Add a fair to decent scope, $200-300 (these will work while you are learning - since you are on a budget).

Oh yeah, shoot lots of rounds at known ranges until you feel "accurate", then move out to longer range.

Dave
 
Sounds like you had a good day of shooting.

I'll point out, again, the consideration of barrel life. You state it doesn't matter, and that the sooner you burn out the factory barrel, the better.

However, you're not going to get 3000rnds from a .243win before that expensive new "bull barrel" needs to be replaced. Out of a 300win mag, if and when you get one, it'll be closer around 1,000 rounds. That might seem like a lot, when you've only fired a few hundred centerfire rounds in your LIFE so far, but once you start really doing much long range shooting, barrels become an annual or biannual replacement item. #barrellivesmatter

The .243win will be a great fit for 1,000yrd shooting, and will let you ring steel at ELR as well. As I mentioned above, I can keep the 115 Dtac bullet super sonic to ~1700yrds. It's not as easily managed as the 338lap, but it's capable.
 
jmar wrote:
I want it to be 1500 yard capable
...
This is for a SHTF situation
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I am not trying to change your mind on any of this, but I just want to know why if you don't hunt and are preparing for a SHTF situation (which means you're looking to kill human beings trying to displace you from your survival nest), are you not considering something like a 50 BMG rifle?

You might be able to reach out and do a head shot on someone at 1,500 yards with a 6.5mm Creedmoor, but if you get a bunch of thugs that watched a few back episodes of Mythbusters and decided to "armor" a pickup truck with layers of phone books, none of the calibers you're considering would be sufficient whereas a 50 BMG would let you "reach out and touch" them even through 1200 pages of newsprint.
 
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