Trigger Discipline

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I have been trained in finger goes on trigger when sights are aligned on the target. This takes very little time with lots of practice. My FN-15 when it hits my shoulder has finger on trigger. This is different from a handgun. Each of these issues does involve a lot of training so it becomes total muscle and conscious memory.
 
Kleanbore said:
I have never met 9mmepiphany, nor has he trained me, but I pay close attention to everything he says here.
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+1
I have had the privilege a couple of times. He's a kick in the pants to shoot a match with.

I think the answer to the OP's original question is BOTH and/or It depends (as usual).

The problem with ALWAYS doing something is that the situation will never be the same, and often will be one you never expected.

Heck you could be running flat out to a position of cover/concealment while you are drawing.
Or stuck in a elevator where you need to get rounds out ASAP.
Who knows?
 
The trigger of a revolver never stops moving between multiple targets in an array. You don't wait for the sights to be "on target" before starting the press

As opposed to a pistol where you reset and prep the trigger between targets and wait for the sights to get to the next target before completing the press. If you're waiting for a revolver's sights to start the press, you're already behind the curve. The object is to get the sights onto the target by the time the trigger breaks
 
I don't put my foot on the gas pedal of a running car, which is in gear, before I'm ready to make the vehicle move. ;)

It might be prudent to remember that when someone is off the training, practice or competition range, meaning in the outside world, many things are different.

On the controlled range range there's the luxury of having already been provided a "safe" shooting environment, meaning one where the "threat/competition targets" have been set up to be clearly identified, there's a safe direction to shoot, a backstop to absorb and contain bullets, you already KNOW you're going to shoot, and you're looking for that smallest of edges in manipulating triggers and servicing identified targets faster than a fellow competitor.

In the outside world, actual threats are probably unexpected and sudden, and the real world environment can easily contain a lot of people, animals and property which ought not be shot, injured or killed.

Forgetting or deliberately skipping important safe gun handling and manipulation practices (let alone not understanding the laws involved in the reasonable, lawful and justifiable use of deadly force) may risk being the causative event for tragic and horrific consequences.
 
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I am surprised a person tagging Col. John Cooper is asking this. Whether you are civilian - or in military - the same rule applies; finger along the bore axis outside the trigger guard until your sights are on the target. You will not be measurably any faster putting your finger on the trigger beforehand. In the face of the presentation of a deadly threat in your face your trigger finger will likely fall onto the trigger to coincide with a flash sight picture anyway. With a handgun, about the only thing you are likely to gain with your finger on the trigger from the draw is a bullet in and down your strongside leg or foot, or a round in the ground in front of you.

With a don't shoot target, you might draw, maybe even make a presentation - but with your trigger outside the guard in it's proper place, you buy time to make a positive or negative threat ID. Ideally you decide whether a threat is a threat before getting a sight picture. If your finger is already on the trigger you are set up for what would amount to an accidental discharge on a non-threat target.
 
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Frank Ettin said:
Just for the sake of clarity, while his name was John Dean Cooper, he answered to, and preferred to be called, "Jeff."
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I do not call people I am not personally introduced to by their nick names - especially my elders. Had I ever met Col. Cooper and he said "please, call me Jeff" I would feel free to do so.
 
9mmepiphany said:
The trigger of a revolver never stops moving between multiple targets in an array. You don't wait for the sights to be "on target" before starting the press

As opposed to a pistol where you reset and prep the trigger between targets and wait for the sights to get to the next target before completing the press. If you're waiting for a revolver's sights to start the press, you're already behind the curve. The object is to get the sights onto the target by the time the trigger breaks
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Interesting, I had no idea. It makes sense, there is a lot going on when you press the trigger of a revolver.
 
On the draw stroke, as my gun is driving toward the target...basically... and as soon as the muzzle is oriented on the target, before full extension I am getting on the trigger (roughly 3/4 of the way to full extension). The exigency you face in the moment will be a determining factor. Are you looking for compliance from a subject, or do you need to put rounds on target RIGHT NOW?

Extend-Touch-Press (Break The Shot) assuming I am going from holster to bang.

ON TRIGGER.png
 
Ironically, I was just speaking about this with someone last weekend at the range. They were discussing how recently the mantra of never putting your finger on the trigger came into vogue and how hard it really was for many older guys to break that bad habit. And according to my interlocutor, it was visiting Col. Cooper's Gunsite that opened up many of the famous "Old Guys'" eyes on that matter.

Remember that this was back in the days when almost all holsters left the trigger guard completely open, too. So you could have that finger on the trigger before you even began to draw!

I don't know how much this topic has been brought up on here and I don't shoot competition yet, so maybe some more knowledgeable folks can chime in.
When I draw from the holster at the indoor range I frequent it's mainly in order to get the gun out of the holster and shots on target ASAP, thus there is no finger outside the trigger guard.
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I guess everyone else has already covered this well, but the trigger finger goes against the frame, above the trigger. NOT ON the trigger until you've got a sight picture of some kind, on target. You are NOT gaining speed, and you are grossly increasing your chances of a serious mistake.

I know in competitions sometimes there are "no shoot" targets. When you guys encounter these targets is your finger inside the trigger guard ready to go or no?
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Any time you are not engaging a threat target your finger is COMPLETELY off the trigger. That's a serious safety violation, to be moving or transitioning with your finger on the trigger. One stumble and a sympathetic squeeze and BANG! Who knows where that shot just went?

For SD purposes we are taught not to draw unless you are willing to shoot. A lot, and I mean many, of the SD video's I see online are just drawing and shooting.
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True. Or at least not to draw until you feel you have no choice but to shoot. In such cases the time between drawing and firing might be very small. But the trigger finger still would not land on the trigger itself until ready to break the shot.

What I'm getting at here is, as civilians, what's the better draw technique as far as practice? Draw and shoot? Draw and hold with finger outside trigger guard? Or a combination of both?
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Maybe that's a distinction without a difference. The technique is to draw, acquire a full grip (if time), acquire some kind of body index or sight picture (depending on time and distance), and fire. The trigger finger lands on the trigger in the split second before pressing the trigger to fire.
 
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Creaky Old Cop's description and photo sequence is great.

Somewhere between the third and forth photo, the muzzle of the pistol comes up to cover the target. At any point from there forward, he would be able to fire if a bad guy was closing fast and/or grappling him.

He could fire from that position with the gun against the side of his chest (what I'd call "Position 2"), only using his body indexed toward the threat.

He could fire from the position he's at in the 4th picture, when his hands have come together and the back of the gun is coming into his lower peripheral vision.

And he could fire from a fully extended position with a complete front-sight picture as in the last image.

At full speed, full presentation, the trigger finger hits the trigger just before full extension and the gun fires just as it is pressed fully out.
 
Sam1911 said:
Ironically, I was just speaking about this with someone last weekend at the range. They were discussing how recently the mantra of never putting your finger on the trigger came into vogue and how hard it really was for many older guys to break that bad habit. And according to my interlocutor, it was visiting Col. Cooper's Gunsite that opened up many of the famous "Old Guys'" eyes on that matter.....
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It's easy to forget how "new" this doctrine is. The foundations starting in the mid-1960s when Jeff Cooper and others, including Thell Reed, Eden Carl, Ray Chapman, and Jack Weaver began holding regular competitions in the San Bernardino Mountains of Southern California. They were experimenting with techniques to more effectively use the handgun for self defense. Those competitions begat IPSC.

And a consideration, in addition to shooting a reasonably powerful handgun fast and accurately, was being able to handle a lethal weapon efficiently and safely in a dynamic environment.
 
Frank Ettin said:
It's easy to forget how "new" this doctrine is. The foundations starting in the mid-1960s when Jeff Cooper and others, including Thell Reed, Eden Carl, Ray Chapman, and Jack Weaver began holding regular competitions in the San Bernardino Mountains of Southern California. They were experimenting with techniques to more effectively use the handgun for self defense. Those competitions begat IPSC.

And a consideration, in addition to shooting a reasonably powerful handgun fast and accurately, was being able to handle a lethal weapon efficiently and safely in a dynamic environment.
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I went to the academy way back in the stone age of K Frame revolvers, dump pouches (uniform standard), and optional speedloaders (which I carried religiously). The holster we were given at the academy, along with the 4" Model 10 or Colt Police Positive was the old Bianchi 5BHL Thumb break, or a Jordan River Holster...old guys will remember these. Both had open trigger guards.

When I graduated and could buy my own leather, I immediately bought a Safariland SSIII retention holster with a covered trigger guard and mastered that holster. It was the model of holster I carried, not matter what the evolution of our duty guns were...the SSIII was the best.

When we were taught back then...the manual actually stressed "taking a full shooting grip on the revolver, simultaneously gripping the handgun, releasing the snap, and placing your finger on the trigger as you begin your combat draw"...or wording VERY similar to that. Even back then it didn't make a lot of sense to me to engage the trigger before I had at least got to a parallel muzzle orientation to the ground. Yes, there were a few premature BANGS on the range. Not from me, but you get the idea.

I had already been reading Ayoob, Cooper, and Jordan enthusiastically, as well as Askins, Nonte, and Skelton, but even back then the whole idea of combative pistol shooting was in early, but rapid evolution.

Yes, Cooper at the old Leatherslap had begun the revolution and we are lucky today to have all of that information.

I am going to look for my old training book from the academy and see what other archaic info I can post up.
 
Good Ol' Boy said:
I don't know how much this topic has been brought up on here and I don't shoot competition yet, so maybe some more knowledgeable folks can chime in.

When I draw from the holster at the indoor range I frequent it's mainly in order to get the gun out of the holster and shots on target ASAP, thus there is no finger outside the trigger guard.

I know in competitions sometimes there are "no shoot" targets. When you guys encounter these targets is your finger inside the trigger guard ready to go or no?
This will be in reference to the top statements and questions. Fingers on the trigger. Either way it's a mental thing. At advanced CQB and some regular team training in some kill houses there are always no shooters around. Looking at hands is the only way to tell. Law enforcement look for similar things as well. Point being you have to look before you react...so its mental training, nothing to do with finger on or off the trigger. Its being able to distinguish, kill or no kill.

For SD purposes we are taught not to draw unless you are willing to shoot. A lot, and I mean many, of the SD video's I see online are just drawing and shooting.
You might have to brandish in order to show a threat that you are willing to protect yourself...the laws vary slightly but what remains the same is the imitate threat. Not drawing on a drawn gun is probably the one piece of advice that will save someones life. Other than that, situation will dictate.
Technique is another thing, like shooting from the index, or draw, is a very useful thing in hand to hand distances. Often times i think the pelvic girdle is not considered enough for a disabling shot to allowing a fatal follow up. People just post things that look cool, but gun fighting is like fighting...takes practice and experience.


What I'm getting at here is, as civilians, what's the better draw technique as far as practice? Draw and shoot? Draw and hold with finger outside trigger guard? Or a combination of both?
You should run different scenarios in your head and plug and play the information yourself...best way to make sense of it all on the draw. those scenarios in your imagination show be slow medium and fast paste. Theres a place for finger on, and finger off the trigger...but as i said before, situation dictates.
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When I was starting out, I don't know how many times my dad chided me, "get your finger off that :cuss:trigger!"
Lessons taught by scary dads stick to ya pretty well.

If I'm for sure going to fire; sometime after the draw, but before full extension, my finger will find the trigger.
Safety is off immediately after clearing leather....
If for whatever reason I have drawn, but not firing right away, my finger is simply pointing alongside.

IMO, making a habit of going straight away to the trigger is an accident waiting to happen.

Thanks Dad! You were right!
 
9mmepiphany said:
The trigger of a revolver never stops moving between multiple targets in an array. You don't wait for the sights to be "on target" before starting the press

As opposed to a pistol where you reset and prep the trigger between targets and wait for the sights to get to the next target before completing the press. If you're waiting for a revolver's sights to start the press, you're already behind the curve. The object is to get the sights onto the target by the time the trigger breaks
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Amen. Right out of the Vic Pickett book of round gun shootery.
 
Sam1911 said:
Creaky Old Cop's description and photo sequence is great.

Somewhere between the third and forth photo, the muzzle of the pistol comes up to cover the target. At any point from there forward, he would be able to fire if a bad guy was closing fast and/or grappling him.

He could fire from that position with the gun against the side of his chest (what I'd call "Position 2"), only using his body indexed toward the threat.

He could fire from the position he's at in the 4th picture, when his hands have come together and the back of the gun is coming into his lower peripheral vision.

And he could fire from a fully extended position with a complete front-sight picture as in the last image.

At full speed, full presentation, the trigger finger hits the trigger just before full extension and the gun fires just as it is pressed fully out.
Click to expand...
Trigger Discipline.png
 
I had already been reading Ayoob, Cooper, and Jordan enthusiastically, as well as Askins, Nonte, and Skelton, but even back then the whole idea of combative pistol shooting was in early, but rapid evolution.
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I don't think I'd be breaking any confidences here to explain that the person I was speaking to was our own Duelist1954 (Mike Beliveau) and he related a conversation about just this topic he'd had with Bill Jordan about the rise of that discipline at Gunsite.


And to be fair, when DA revolvers were the standard equipment, neither covered trigger guards nor the rigorous need to keep your finger from touching the trigger before on target, were such a critical safety issue. Certainly a good idea, but (without having evidence to back this up...) I'd bet that Ed McGivern didn't follow that, and I'd be real surprised if a generation later Jelly Brice did either. But, whether or not DA revolvers NEEDED to be handled that way (and I would argue they absolutely should be), the introduction of auto pistols into common use forced the practice to become universal.
 
This is an area where the habits gleaned from competitive shooting sports that require drawing from the holster and the practicalities of defensive handgun training; may not be compatible.
Having shot IDPA for years I was always taught to "take the slack out" of the trigger once the weapon was pointed down range, but before and while acquiring a site picture. The habits born of this could be extremely dangerous in a real defensive situation.
Modern police training places a strong emphasis on the skills required to take suspects at gunpoint. That is a far more common act for both police and CHL. That includes placing the trigger finger in an "index position" on the side of the frame as part of the draw stroke in every case: placing the finger on the trigger only after the decision to fire is made. This approach provides an additional layer of conscious thought between the draw and the discharge of the weapon. I believe that CHL training should mirror this training model.
For those of us who both carry concealed and compete, we must train equally diligently the skills required to carry concealed responsibly as we do for the next match.
 
On my draw, my trigger finger is on the trigger when the pistol is pointed down range. If my pistol is drawn and pointed downrange, then the "decision to fire" has already been made, it's just a matter of timing. And yes, I still have the option of not shooting and removing my finger from the trigger area. Training has given that option to me.

Unlike the pics above, if my pistol is retracted back to the retention position, my finger stays on the trigger, ready. The retention position is a fighting position. So I don't use that technique at all, as it could create a scar.

My finger is on the trigger when I engage enemy targets and sweep past the no shoot targets. So yeah, hostages get swept. Sucks, but that's reality.

My trigger finger is on NOTHING when moving, not shooting, malf clearing, etc. etc. A trigger feels a whole lot more similar to a trigger guard or frame, than how absolutely NOTHING feels. If you get into 3gun or USPSA, that technique is recommended, as it's more "obvious".
 
I've always wondered about this statement....what does it mean? Does it mean that you will leave your weapon holstered until the very last second before drawing and firing?
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Primarily it reflects the fact that it is almost always unlawful to draw, display, "brandish" a firearm in response to a threatening situation unless there's a clear and articulable threat present at that time which you would believe justifies a force, or lethal force response. Any display of a weapon in a way that could or is intended to create an apprehension of fear in another person is an assault. And you may find yourself charged (and convicted) of assault if you draw your gun on/near/in the presence of someone without being able to prove what imminent lethal threat existed in that moment to make (a reasonable person) believe no other choice existed.

In other words, if you don't feel you've been backed into a situation where you could be legally justified in using that gun, you aren't in a situation where you can draw that gun in a way that might threaten someone, either.

There are a few exceptions to this. Some states do recognize display of a weapon as a use of force(not deadly force) and accept that there are circumstances where you can be justified in using a gun to warn someone off -- but the threat hasn't risen quite to the point of justifiably shooting that person. Many other states do not recognize such an action as lawful, except when the actual use of lethal force would be justified.

Practically speaking, yes. It does mean that it is a really bad idea to draw your gun if you aren't VERY sure you're just about to use it.



...

EDIT: This does fly directly in the face of the most pragmatic old-school idea that if things start to feel a little "hinky" you'd draw your gun just to be ready. Or if someone's acting strangely or approaching you in a way that makes you uncomfortable and/or after you've tried to get them to leave you alone, you might draw your gun to show them that you're armed and get them to "think twice" about coming closer. Strictly speaking you are drawing a gun in a way that could make someone fear you might shoot them, and/or drawing a gun with the specific intent of indicating that you're considering shooting them if they don't stop what they're doing. And those are forms of assault, under the law.

However, neither a "hinky" feeling nor someone walking toward you are clear threats that could provide a legal justification for assaulting someone.
 
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