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As mentioned, in CA not many passsengers will be carrying. But if it's me, I'm not likely to be in CA and definitely not on a train. But I have to place myself in the scenario so I'm going with that. I'm also going with the likelihood IMO that some of the teens will be armed with guns and knives. Esp. if the train has already left the station...where will they go if now confronted with deadly force?

I would not draw and I would hand over my wallet, etc if they got to me. No one thus far (in scenario) has gotten more than a beat down...sure, that would be hard to take, I know...but if you draw and fire...then you risk accidentally shooting a passenger (moving train, moving bodies, etc). More than that tho, while I or you would take the time to fire carefully, any of the teens that were armed would draw and fire indiscriminately....they would pull knives, maybe use passengers as human shields. THey cant escape, they would probably go to another car. What would happen there? No way to know but before they made it your car may have become a shooting gallery.

It would be very hard but I would try to maintain my composure and my ego and not shoot unless I personally was directly confronted by the deadly force. I know this would grate very much on nerves here but there are too many other innocent people there for me to *initiate* that deadly force unless absolutely necessary. If the beatings and violence shows they may kill or disable me? Then that's different but the scenario thus far doesnt read that way. I do understand that beating can be considered 'gross bodily harm,' committing a felony, or 'deadly force.' It would have to be moment to moment observation for me.

I will say that regarding them finding my firearm...they seemed to be robbing and moving on....no mention of searching people. That's why, just hand over wallet, etc. and let them move on. No, I would NOT let them take my firearm...that would significantly change the entire dynamic on the train if they found that.

Also, yes I would believe that at least some of the urban teens would have knives and even some guns. Goes to the likeliest odds IMO.
 
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Point taken. But I will be damned if I will duck and run leaving undefended without hope.
Initiating deadly force could put those 'undefended' in more danger. Those teens will now be confronted in a small space and some (IMO) will have knives and guns. Some will run but if they cant? They wont be concerned about who they shoot, they may not even aim. They may not even have seen who (in this case you) the shooter was.
 
When I went through the NRA Refuse To Be a Victim class and the follow-on Instructor Training suggested we all carry a "drop wallet" with some expired credit cards and a little cash for realism just in case we decided to comply first.
Is this still taught? Pretty sure even the tweakers are onto this one.
 
When was the last time you rode on a train-car? "50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing and beating people."
That scenario has the isle jammed. If you`ve ever ridden on a subway at during rush hour...that is a good example of what the inside of your train car would look like. Just a different take on your set up.
 
If you're considering these scenarios, you may want to consider carrying something with more ammo like a Glock 19 and a few mags. I doubt you'd even be able to reload your revolver in that situation before being overrun (unless you have a lot of practice speed reloading a revolver).
Carry a second one.
 
Ghost - there was a similar situation on a school bus for the high school I used to go to a couple of years ago.
One kid starts pounding on another kid near the back of the bus for no apparent reason. First kid is the smaller kid and "black". Bigger kid is white. Bigger kid did NOTHING to defend himself because the school has a policy that, even if you are just defending yourself, YOU get suspended as well !!

The blasted schools are teaching our kids to be WIMPS and not to defend themselves when attacked !
I guess the "powers that be" want a nice, subservient class of wage-slaves.
Happened to my son, too, race wasn't an issue, both were the same. My son covered up, and still got suspended. We threatened to sue the school for his medical bills, they paid them.
 
You're seated on this train car as either a single person or a married person with or without children, when 50-60 juveniles enter and start robbing/beating people. You are armed with your regular CCW (its not necessarily California, for the purposes of the scenario). Please list the scenario as it applies to you.

Part of developing strategies and tactics is placing oneself in a scenario and making the decision in advance. Please play out some alternative scenarios, and discuss the best options.

http://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php

For me: I typically carry a .357 magnum revolver with 12 extra rounds for reloads. I am married with no children, and my wife does not carry.

Option A: comply and hope that we don't get hurt.
Option B: draw and start shooting.
Option C: attempt hand to hand
Option D: run and hope my wife can keep up
Option E: run, and try to cover my wife's retreat
Option F: brandish and see if they will run, if not, start firing at my attackers.

I don't think there is a good option here. What are other alternatives and what would you do?

Option G: Tell my wife to "Make Ready," and when she is ready, pick a target. Depending upon the legal situation, I may be carrying under the provisions of 46.15 of the Texas Penal Code, or the federal LEOSA, in a place where she cannot carry on her Texas LTC, so making ready might mean giving her one of my weapons. What I/We do next depends upon the deadliness of the attack, and the "reasonableness" factor.

I did not choose "F," because the word "brandish" is there. That word implies a lack reasonableness. There are better choices of words.

Regarding A, well, compliance while armed means my weapon may be found, and used against me and/or others.

Option B may be applicable and reasonable. It depends upon the imminence and deadliness of the threat to any individual person. "Beating" is not precise/specific enough. Disparity of force, due to the number of attackers, is not precise/specific enough.

Option C is may be a reckless choice, if armed, and facing multiple determined attackers. At contact distance, no party in the fight is unarmed, as everyone can reach the weapon. If one of the attackers gains access to the weapon, well, guess what can happen next. The linear environment of a train MIGHT mean that less-lethal resistance is an option, for SOME well-prepared individuals.

Option D/E could reasonably apply, if running to a position of better tactical dominance, or if helping others escape. Sometimes it is better to save some portion of a group, if one cannot protect the whole group. Perhaps I can get to a dominant position, on a slope above the train tracks, able to engage the attackers from outside the train? Keep thinking!

My son is grown, lives in another metro area, and can carry under the provisions of LEOSA, so my above words did not take him into account. I recently became a grandfather, with one infant grandson, and another grandchild on the way. If the scenario were to include small grandchildren, the equation could change; if I could reasonably evacuate my small grandson/grandchildren to safety, without placing them in danger of being trampled in a stampede, I just might leave a train-load of strangers to their fate. (Sometimes, stampedes kill more folks than the armed attackers.) On the other hand, protecting my grandchildren might mean I would shoot more readily, and press the attack all the more fiercely. One cannot be expected to out-run multiple youthful attackers, while toting infants/toddlers.
 
xXxplosive wrote:
.......Hmmm....this just might be where one in the ceiling just to get their attention might be in order.

Okay, so you just shot one round into the ceiling of the train.

Now what?

Let's just say only 10% of the thugs are carrying and they're only carrying revolvers or single-stack, so when you fire into the ceiling you have suddenly drawn the attention of the five or six thugs that are carrying and the 30 to 50 cartridges they have between them.

What do you think happens next?

Does everyone stop their looting to listen to the "armed citizen" hold forth about rights, responsbilities, legalities and the liberal agenda?

Or do they just all turn their guns on you and shoot you dead?

Do you really see a way in which you come out on top of this scenario as you chose to modify it?
 
Okay, so you just shot one round into the ceiling of the train.

Now what?

Let's just say only 10% of the thugs are carrying and they're only carrying revolvers or single-stack, so when you fire into the ceiling you have suddenly drawn the attention of the five or six thugs that are carrying and the 30 to 50 cartridges they have between them.

What do you think happens next?

Does everyone stop their looting to listen to the "armed citizen" hold forth about rights, responsbilities, legalities and the liberal agenda?

Or do they just all turn their guns on you and shoot you dead?
LOL

Thank you.
 
Would it be wise to surrender your gun to the scum of the earth?
Allow a firearm to escape into the streets, in the worst way?
 
Would it be wise to surrender your gun to the scum of the earth?
Allow a firearm to escape into the streets, in the worst way?
No, definitely not. But in the real account (this scenario is based on a real incident) and in this scenario, they arent searching people. THey are demanding wallets, valuables, etc. and knocking people around.

They are not searching people...they are grabbing and moving on. I would *probably* wait to see if they were going to do more than take what I handed them (wallet, watch?, etc) before doing more. I wouldnt hand over firearm. If they attacked me or searched me, then I'd draw.

But if not, then I would not initiate gunfire in that scenario with so many bystanders around. I am of the opinion that at least some of those teens would have guns, knives, etc. I wouldnt want to initiate panic where they might use them.
 
Well, they certainly deserve all our stuff, not having worked for it, or anything.
They should be led to our homes where we can sign over all our worldly goods,
as our children lob fruitily scented flower petals in their path.
 
How do we know they aren't searching people? The action isn't over -- at any time they could start searching people, raping women and killing.

And if they do, you adapt. You still have the option to draw....if warranted.

However we arent 'adding' to the scenario. They are grabbing valuables, wilding, knocking people around. Searching people takes time and (dangerous) close contact. IMO, as written, it was more risky to innocent people to initiate gunfire in the scenario (and as it occurred in real life). It depends on how much importance you put on valuables rather than peoples' lives sometimes....if I'm doing risk assessment, I think most of us would prioritize on people first.
 
And if they do, you adapt. You still have the option to draw....if warranted.

However we arent 'adding' to the scenario. They are grabbing valuables, wilding, knocking people around. Searching people takes time and (dangerous) close contact. IMO, as written, it was more risky to innocent people to initiate gunfire in the scenario (and as it occurred in real life). It depends on how much importance you put on valuables rather than peoples' lives sometimes....if I'm doing risk assessment, I think most of us would prioritize on people first.
Inherent in the scenario is uncertainty. The victims don't know and can't know what the criminals intend to do -- until they do it. And then it's too late to take action to prevent them.
 
Inherent in the scenario is uncertainty. The victims don't know and can't know what the criminals intend to do -- until they do it. And then it's too late to take action to prevent them.
That is inherent in every scenario and every real life situation. What we're exploring is how we'd handle that uncertainty...how we'd assess and react to the risks, and what our priorities would be. It's educational as each person gives their reasoning...I think that is the purpose for examining such scenarios....to see the possible consequences of people's choices.
 
That is inherent in every scenario and every real life situation. What we're exploring is how we'd handle that uncertainty...how we'd assess and react to the risks, and what our priorities would be. It's educational as each person gives their reasoning...I think that is the purpose for examining such scenarios....to see the possible consequences of people's choices.
Therefore it is pointless to say what the attackers will not do, and to criticize people who advocate preventing them from doing those things.
 
It's educational as each person gives their reasoning...I think that is the purpose for examining such scenarios....to see the possible consequences of people's choices.


I have found several good points in this and the scenario II thread. New points of view and different actions/reactions. I too agree that this is what the purpose of this is.
 
Therefore it is pointless to say what the attackers will not do, and to criticize people who advocate preventing them from doing those things.
Not sure where you found me criticizing any poster. "Not adding" more elements to the scenario is a general request usually made. If you felt unfairly criticized, I apologize.
 
Not sure where you found me criticizing any poster. "Not adding" more elements to the scenario is a general request usually made. If you felt unfairly criticized, I apologize.
Thank you -- but an inherent part of any such scenario is inability to foresee the future. Therefore an appropriate response must include maintaining the ability to take effective action if the worst happens.
 
Thank you -- but an inherent part of any such scenario is inability to foresee the future. Therefore an appropriate response must include maintaining the ability to take effective action if the worst happens.
Yes I believe I wrote that...about adapting and still being able to if your specific action occurred: searching.
 
Which leads to the conclusion that you cannot give up your weapon, and you MUST be prepared to shoot and shoot quickly.
If you are referring to me, yes and I addressed that directly. You/I would always be prepared. IF they start searching, then I would consider drawing. Are you assuming it would just be you? That might be a particular 'vibe' a person gives off.

My comments were related to assessing the scene as it evolved and not initiating any gunfire unless the risks indicated 'to me' that it outweighed inciting panic and retaliation from the teens on the other people on the train. If you believed the teens would target you more specifically, then that would be your call.

Edit: searching takes more time and more contact...more risk...for them as well. Didnt seem like their M.O. from the description ("swarming") but as you wrote, it could change.
 
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