odd shooting style.

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I get the sport application, however no range safety rule is, or should be, broken as long as the muzzle is always pointed down range, and not elevated above target level.

Yep. Watch high-level competitors in one of the speed-based games, and you will see the gun in all kinds of different positions when they aren't firing. In contrast, if you watch relative newcomers to those games, it's common to see them waddling between positions while maintaining some rigid "ready" or "retention" position they picked up from a class or youtube... and burning clock all the while.
 
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A SPORT SHOOTING stage designer doesn't have access to many of the effective ready or shooting positions,

I don't think a gunfighting trainer does, either; at least not with live ammo. If it isn't safe at a match, calling it training does not make it so. Best to develop those specialty positions dryfire or Simunition.
 
I don't think a gunfighting trainer does, either; at least not with live ammo. If it isn't safe at a match, calling it training does not make it so. Best to develop those specialty positions dryfire or Simunition.
I made my initial comments mainly because I see many who do not participate in competition using this two handed close to the chest hold, almost always followed up after each shot string with that robotic left and right scan. And I choose my words carefully here. I have watched many of these guys closely, over and over again. Some of these guys are really LOOKING as they scan, but many are not really looking, as in seeing what they are looking at around them.

So leaving the scan behind for now; the hold issue as it applies in the combat shooting context, is a habit which will manifest itself as a default. And I think it is a big mistake.
 
What we see most often in tv/movies isn't high compressed position, but rather is "Sul." The pistol is almost laying on its side against the body, and both hands are together at the centerline, with the firing hand effectively resting on the support hand, which is palm in against your body. It does always make me chuckle, since Sul isn't really meant to be a "ready" position, but is kind of an administrative position which is "almost ready." Guys seem to like it, which I attribute to being relatively similar in physical automaticity to low ready with a rifle. It's BARELY faster to a firing position from Sul than it is from a holster, as opposed to true ready positions.

Sul is useful for if you have to move with a handgun in hand through a group of uninvolved parties. For example, if you are in the vicinity of an active shooting and are trying to move unobtrusively toward the shooter, Sul allows you to have your gun in hand while not drawing attention to it and move through a crowd without muzzling anyone. Really Sul is just about safety combined with taking advantage of the typical lack of observational skills that characterize most people going through their day.
 
I don't think a gunfighting trainer does, either; at least not with live ammo. If it isn't safe at a match, calling it training does not make it so. Best to develop those specialty positions dryfire or Simunition.

There are plenty of techniques which can be safely practiced in the context of an appropriately appointed (typically private) range which could never be programmed into a stage design. As an example, I have access to a 30yrd range in a bowl on one of my properties. One shooter goes in, and can shoot in any direction. If I want to train a reload where I turn my back against cover, my pistol pointing 180degrees away from the target array, I can do so. Can't to that in a match, because 180degrees away from the target array isn't a safe direction. Two of my private ranges are 3 or more miles from the nearest country home, and about 30 miles from the nearest village, I can point my muzzle UP, practicing a Temple-Index position, or high ready position, without disqualification or dismissal from a conventional competitive or commercial shooting range.

So indeed, I can, as a trainer, utilize and instruct techniques in the context of these other ranges which I could NEVER use as a stage designer for action shooting stages. SPORT SHOOTING and commercial range operations dictate typically a 170-180 degree horizontal firingline and often utilize far less, often with less than 45 degrees vertical dispersion. Good action shooting stage designers promote the illusion of open field shooting by moving the shooter in the target field, but the reality of these limitations remain - everything is fired forward.

Sure - there are lots of things which might be pressed into action in a live engagement which might not be safe for training, nor for competition, but it's not absolute - a guy can do a lot more outside of a populated square range than they can inside one, especially in the context of competition where a designer has to keep safe all competitors and spectators.
 
You can certainly do a lot of things if you have suitable properties and are taking or providing one on one training.
Best if the student has been through some prerequisites before he starts getting so advanced, too.
 
Sul is useful for if you have to move with a handgun in hand through a group of uninvolved parties. For example, if you are in the vicinity of an active shooting and are trying to move unobtrusively toward the shooter, Sul allows you to have your gun in hand while not drawing attention to it and move through a crowd without muzzling anyone. Really Sul is just about safety combined with taking advantage of the typical lack of observational skills that characterize most people going through their day.

Agreed - it's "almost ready," as I stated in my first post.

But it gets used incorrectly in some competitive stages because the designer thinks it's a cool buzzword or trendy position, but doesn't incorporate the context like what you describe. The advantage as a stage designer is it's often safer to start from a static Sul than to have a fleet of newbies draw from their holster.

And that's a prime example of what can be trained/practiced, but is generally frowned upon in stage design. Moving in Sul, you're covering your own legs, which might be fully acceptable in the context of training & defensive/offensive practice, whereas SPORT SHOOTING stage designers try to avoid it. All rule books I've ever read say a shooter is to be penalized or disqualified for covering themselves or anyone else, can't move in Sul without running that line. So it often gets washed out of competition.

And equally, in this day's bitch-about-anything-and-everything-tactical trend, if anyone posts a YouTube video of practice or training where they have their muzzle in an unsafe direction, they get lambasted.

So legitimate techniques get washed out, and folks improperly supplant different techniques, so firing from high compressed somehow finds itself programmed into a BACKWARD MOVEMENT during a stage in a match...
 
But it gets used incorrectly in some competitive stages because the designer thinks it's a cool buzzword or trendy position, but doesn't incorporate the context like what you describe. The advantage as a stage designer is it's often safer to start from a static Sul than to have a fleet of newbies draw from their holster.

And, yet, USPSA prohibits a Sul start, while requiring draws from holsters on 90+% of stages (with a gun positioned on a table or elsewhere off the body on the remaining stage). The gun can never start in the hand.... except, now, for Pistol Caliber Carbine... when it usually does... because PCC is special, or something.
 
Varmintterror wrote:
Some of the guys joked afterwards - they felt like the training was more like "learn how to go on a killing spree in a dorm"...

Ah yes, the "shoot everything that breathes" school of marksmanship.

I do agree with you that the people who stage these courses are under pressure to give their clients what they want if they want to stay in business. And what the client usually wants is variety and an opportunity to pull the trigger a lot. Whether it is more realistic or practical than the latest indie horror film on Netflix is another matter entirely.
 
The gun can never start in the hand.... except, now, for Pistol Caliber Carbine... when it usually does... because PCC is special, or something.

I think it's because people don't want to be seen with one holstered.

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Its like an amature version of it a local outdoor gun club puts on. they call it practical defense shoots.

It might be difficult to like a game that has no printed rules. "Frank and Jims" defense shoots are going to consist of whatever idea they have.

USPSA and IDPA have thousands of members that piss and moan about the rules and keep the folks that write them informed of what they don't like. Then the hinge that squeaks the loudest, gets the oil.

Like IDPA's rule changes that have had lots of folks moving over to USPSA over the years. Now IDPA is more USPSA like than ever before.

In short if you don't like the game, don't play. There are lots of different games you can play now and if one of them isn't a fit for you, just start another one.
 
I think it's because people don't want to be seen with one holstered.

Maybe, but it's still illogical as hell. With pistols, there are at least two "NEVER DO's" that are no problem with PCC's (in fact, one is required - the gun-in-hand start). With the handguns, these things are NEVER DO's because of the safety issues associated with them. OK, either they are, in fact, big safety problems, in which case they should not be allowed with PCC's either; or they are not big safety problems, and they should be allowed with pistols just as much as with PCC's.

Ultimately, this isn't super consequential, but as someone who deals with rules for a living, internally-inconsistent rules make my feet itch.
 
It might be difficult to like a game that has no printed rules. "Frank and Jims" defense shoots are going to consist of whatever idea they have.

USPSA and IDPA have thousands of members that piss and moan about the rules and keep the folks that write them informed of what they don't like. Then the hinge that squeaks the loudest, gets the oil.

Like IDPA's rule changes that have had lots of folks moving over to USPSA over the years. Now IDPA is more USPSA like than ever before.

In short if you don't like the game, don't play. There are lots of different games you can play now and if one of them isn't a fit for you, just start another one.[/QUOTE]
I get that but don't teach new people something that could possibly get them or someone else hurt. My main gripe with holding the firearm with your arms tucked in where your elbows are touching your ribs and firing a gun will have two effects. 1) too close and you get a steel slide hitting you in the solar plexus. 2) how in the heck can you shoot accurately holding the gun this way? In ohio peace officers training commission course we are taught to draw from the holster and fire from the hip 2 times and then create distance from the target and once a greater distance is covered you can have the arms extended. I don't watch a heck of a lot of shooting shows and haven't done the opota course in awhile but its definitely a very awkward way to shoot. It was pounded in my head that training will always kick in when its time to fight for your life. knocking points off for some jacked up shooting style someone dreamed up can make a newbie feel they need to do this to be proficient. I have come to the fact that it is a game and i have firearms training so therefore i will shoot the course with my tactics and maybe there's if its not asinine.

I would like you guys to stand in the mirror and have your arms at your side and just lift your hands and forearms in front of you, keeping your elbows touching your ribs, forearms and hands parallel. this is the way these guys are teaching people. Hell i have been recertified by the state for the last 8yrs and carried a firearm for work daily for that 8yrs and i felt like a total jackass when the guy told me 5pts off and explained to me i had to shoot that way. imagine a new person. BTW. i know i got a little hot in this one and its not toward you Mr. Morris its just how i feel in general.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
I would like you guys to stand in the mirror and have your arms at your side and just lift your hands and forearms in front of you, keeping your elbows touching your ribs, forearms and hands parallel. this is the way these guys are teaching people.
I just did this out of curiosity and it brought me to a textbook High Compressed Ready. It is basically the same position used with some subguns (MP-5K/MAC-10)

My main gripe with holding the firearm with your arms tucked in where your elbows are touching your ribs and firing a gun will have two effects. 1) too close and you get a steel slide hitting you in the solar plexus. 2) how in the heck can you shoot accurately holding the gun this way?
1. Unless you have extremely short forearms, I can't see how the slide would every reach your torso.
2. Quite easily, you index your upper body to the target...it is actually much easier to place accurate shots from this position than from Retention. This has been commonly taught since the 70s
 
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I just did this out of curiosity and it brought me to a textbook High Compressed Ready. It is basically the same position used with some subguns (MP-5K/MAC-10)


1. Unless you have extremely short forearms, I can't see how the slide would every reach your torso.
2. Quite easily, you index your upper body to the target...it is actually much easier to place accurate shots from this position than from Retention. This has been commonly taught since the 70s
this is how we hold them when clearing rooms and such but these guys wanted the gun pointed at the target and fired 4 rounds. being 6ft6 and the target about 6ft i would probably over shoot it.
the first link is how they wanted it shot. I usually do hold it like the 2nd link this way the muzzle is down but still ready.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ady&simid=608046883878864648&selectedIndex=12

http://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ady&simid=607999398729615653&selectedIndex=15
 
I just did this out of curiosity and it brought me to a textbook High Compressed Ready. It is basically the same position used with some subguns (MP-5K/MAC-10)


1. Unless you have extremely short forearms, I can't see how the slide would every reach your torso.
2. Quite easily, you index your upper body to the target...it is actually much easier to place accurate shots from this position than from Retention. This has been commonly taught since the 70s
That is assuming it is a single hostile. What if there are several and are already in contact or close to contact distance. This could happen in a home environment, other building, or parking lot.
 
Again (I suppose the op started that way to begin with ) you guys are drifting away from "competition shooting".

When I play a game I shoot every stage to win. That simply means the fastest I can with out incurring penalty time added to my score.

It's problem/solution that is worked out before the clock starts, if you expect a decent time. There is no "this could happen" or "what if". It's do it this way or receive a penalty. Simple, zero tactics involved, unless you just want to use the word because it sounds cooler than choreograph.

At the buzzer you already know where every foot step, mag change and target will be. If your hunting or waiting for the situation to pan out, you already lost before you finished the stage.

That said, I wouldn't play a game that was grab family and shotgun, get to safe location, call 911, shoot person if they gain entry. Could be a good tactic but not much fun as a stage and time would be all over the place.
 
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We are creatures of habit, and the first example that comes to mind is a PO (can't recall the place etc but some people here might recall the incident) who instead of a combat dump and reload with his revolver, palmed them out of range habit.

So there is a tangible danger, to me, that adopting a hold like this exclusively in competition or any other form of shooting, is going to bite some people when they find themselves having to use a service handgun to actually defend themselves.
 
the first link is how they wanted it shot. I usually do hold it like the 2nd link this way the muzzle is down but still ready.
The first link is High Compressed Ready and, as I've already stated, is commonly taught in many classes as a Ready Position

The second link is Position Sul...comes from Brazil. Still taught in some schools, but has several weaknesses when used in other than it's intended application...moving in a crowd...and isn't really a practical combat ready position. Here is an article explaining how it became fashionable and often misunderstood http://blog.cuttingedgetraining.org/post/Why-Do-We-Teach-e2809cSule2809d-Position.aspx
 
the first example that comes to mind is a PO (can't recall the place etc but some people here might recall the incident) who instead of a combat dump and reload with his revolver, palmed them out of range habit.
I was taught that in the academy also. The agency was the California Highway Patrol and the incident was named Newhall (for the area where it occurred). Interestingly more recent investigations of the incident revealed that this often cited incident, catching ejected casings, didn't really occur as reported

More common and easily observable "bad habits" are 1) catching ejected magazines, 2) Using the Slide Lock to release the slide, and 3) looking at the target between shots
 
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Catching mags would definitely rank high. The looking between shots I think often originates from self defense training where people are advised to assess a hostile in between shots.
 
The looking between shots I think often originates from self defense training where people are advised to assess a hostile in between shots.
Over a career of breaking clients's self-taught bad habits, I've found that "peeking" at the target between shots originates from an investment in the shot and a lack of faith in the process of trigger management. When working 1:1 with a client, I always ask that they put 3 on target before even looking.

I've never attended training which taught accessing between shots. I was first taught to access after a certain number (>1) of shots. This has now evolved into accessing after enough shots have been placed into the target to put it "down"
 
Over a career of breaking clients's self-taught bad habits, I've found that "peeking" at the target between shots originates from an investment in the shot and a lack of faith in the process of trigger management. When working 1:1 with a client, I always ask that they put 3 on target before even looking.

I've never attended training which taught accessing between shots. I was first taught to access after a certain number (>1) of shots. This has now evolved into accessing after enough shots have been placed into the target to put it "down"
So you are referring strictly to target shooting. And possibly some self defense training which generally advise shoot until your hostile literally drops.

In the self defense context, I am going on the writings and material of some people that do or have taught. In these cases they were/are teaching people to fire, assess, if necessary fire again. Evidently this is a "legal" extrapolation that you should assess after each shot, so that one does not continue shooting someone who is "no longer a threat"; ie: they may still be standing but dropped a weapon, no longer have it pointed your direction, or turning to run, etc.
 
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Competition and training should allow the freedom to use the best shooting option available. Being able to choose the best option while under the clock is better then having a artificial constraint used to force a shooting position/style. I see no benefit in forcing a shooter to train or compete using a style or method that is less capable then other choices. This does not mean that practicing strong or weak hand option is not viable. It does mean that being tied to a method is not a wise choice. If we all were forced to shoot the same way we would not progress with new options.
 
So you are referring strictly to target shooting. And possibly some self defense training which generally advise shoot until your hostile literally drops.
Nope, I'm referring to defensive shooting. Both current LE doctrine and what top tier trainers are teaching

In the self defense context, I am going on the writings and material of some people that do or have taught.
I'm going on what I was taught and learned over a 28 year LE career as well as training that I personally paid for...from people who have been on a two-way shooting range and had the insight to understand the lessons involved and a willingness to pass on that knowledge.

In these cases they were/are teaching people to fire, assess, if necessary fire again. Evidently this is a "legal" extrapolation that you should assess after each shot, so that one does not continue shooting someone who is "no longer a threat"; ie: they may still be standing but dropped a weapon, no longer have it pointed your direction, or turning to run, etc.
Sounds like they have extrapolated incorrectly or confused conflicting concepts of liability.

While you are responsible for every shot that you fire, I'm not familiar with any creditable defensive firearms trainer who teaches to stop shooting and access after each shot. That would be the height of irresponsibility in that field. If you'd name them, I'd be interested in researching their basis of teaching or reasoning
 
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