Self defense .22rimfires?

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Gramps,

The incident I spoke of with the 22 it was actually a shot to the eye.

It's not the crkt m21 or 24 is it? The larger version of the m16? That's almost exclusively what I carry day in and day out, along with a kbar tdi when I can. The crkt is a great knife.

i don't disagree with your point about 22 not being a very good option when there are guns like the LCP (although I actually almost never carry my LCP, go figure) but my point isn't so much that "22 is a good choice" so much as "all handguns are pretty lousy choices, but if circumstances dictate a .22, then I think three are ways to make it more effective and at the end of the day, shot placement is king over everything else." I actually really like your lotto ticket analogy. To continue that metaphor, I'm saying "you might be playing the lottery, but let's make sure we are playing it wisely (better odds with a handful of scratch off tickets than one powerball) and just to be safe, I'm going to actually have the scratch off ticket with me."

One thing that I haven't seen hit on yet, is that there is one VERY significant advantage that the beretta 22 has over a Ruger LCP and the kel Tec and an M&P shield and one of those heifer defense pistols: the OP already owns one, and doesn't need to spend another $200 on another pistol. One could make the argument that 380 or 9mm is better than your kel tec, simply because the slightly larger diameter will increase the possibility of a tension pneumothorax because your creating a larger opening in the chest cavity, but that doesn't change the fact that you already have a kel tec, and chasing that perfect carry gun can be a very expensive never ending exercise.

As far as the gym shorts goes, I concede, agree, and disagree. My concession is that everyone is different and the clothes we wear are different, and the way they fit is different. I have never been able to carry a j frame in my jeans pocket, they just don't fit me that way, and I don't understand how anyone else does, but I know there are people that do. I agree with you about waistband location of a firearm being optimal, it's the way to go from a security and speed stand point, no arguments there. I disagree with the idea of a gun like an NAA not being viable in gym shorts pocket. I have zero problems carrying a j frame in my gym shorts pocket, and often do as an around the house gun. I similarly (as long as I'm not going for a run) don't have a problem with a spare m&p shield mag, Glock 20 mag, iPod, or anything else in gym shorts pockets, and am confident something like the NAA would be just the ticket, from the stand point of something that can fit in a small pocket for when you just want to wear a pair of board shorts or for whatever reason want to have a small concealed gun despite having a full size blaster on your belt.

A shot to the eye would stop just about anyone I would hope. How was the guy still alive? Even a .22 I would have imagined would almost have to continue into the brain...unless it came from the side and wasn't on that trajectory. The bone behind the eyes is eggshell thin.

I agree that all handguns are lousy in that there are only a few places you can hit someone that will stop them, and those places are relatively small, but that is entirely predicated in the first place on the bullet having the necessary energy to reasonably penetrate to those targets. If you don't have that, then you don't have anything, and you're just relying on dumb luck.
 
Varminterror, you sound like you've lived an interesting life! Completely off topic (sorry ZVP) but how hard/dangerous is bull riding? I've always wanted to give it a shot, but don't want to be on the inside of an ambulance unless I'm the one starting lines and dropping tubes.

How hard is it? Well, getting on is easy, staying on is incredibly hard. The best in the world are only successful at staying on 1/3-1/2 of their bulls in a given season. These are guys with coaches and personal trainers, just like any professional athlete.

How dangerous is it? Statistically, golf is more dangerous - proportionately AND volumetrically more people die each year playing golf (not even remotely joking). But realistically, a bull rider is perpetually injured. As I mentioned, I've played football, wrestled, fought MMA, kickboxed, and any number of other foolish painful physical pursuits - pain and soreness even after a successful rodeo, only 8-24 seconds of work, is usually greater than any of the above. No pro linebacker hits harder than a 1,500lb bull, but the real risk is being stepped on. When hammer meets anvil, it's never wise to be in between. When the feet of a bull come down on a body part, pain happens.

After competing as long as I did, I will say, I have a lot of first hand experience and even more first hand observation to how remarkably durable the human body really is.
 
Before this thread, I was comfortably and confidently carrying a Smith 43C 22 lr revolver on my belt and an identical handgun in my front pants pocket. Having now read 9 pages of commentary on the issue, I am comfortably and confidently carrying a Smith 43C 22 lr revolver on my belt and an identical handgun in my front pants pocket.

BOARHUNTER
 
I fully admit that the knife vs. .22lr is my opinion. The fact that a 21A is not a viable self defense weapon is not my opinion.

(Snipped)

How about this, someone show me one case where a micro .22lr successfully stopped an assailant. Not scared him away etc., but actually physically ended his ability to fight. I'm not talking about a gang assassination or anything like that either, but an honest self defense shooting. For every case you show me that fits these parameters I can probably show you ten cases where .22lr failed where almost any other round would have almost undoubtedly succeeded.

(Snipped)

PS-Your wife is in an extreme minority. If she can really only stand to shoot .22 then God bless her and keep her safe. Like I said before, it's better than nothing at all. But you have to admit that 99% of the gun carrying public can easily handle a .32 ACP. Speaking of which, has your wife tried one? To my perception, the noise from both is about the same. I believe both are subsonic from a micro carry pistol.

Quote 1: I think you misunderstand the basic definition of the word 'fact', to be honest; you keep misusing it, as here.

Quote 2:
From the Armed Citizen® Archives
May 1972

Mrs. Velma Priddle was alone in her home in Palo Alto, Calif., one morning when she heard a car drive up outside. A man with a screwdriver then approached her screen door. When Mrs. Priddle asked him what he wanted, he raised the screwdriver as if to strike her. She reached for a .22 rifle and wounded the man. Police later said the man had a long record of burglary arrests. (The Palo Alto Times, Palo Alto, CA)




Quote 3: This is patently false. Hyperacusis is not extremely rare; in fact, 25% of people with any level of Tinnitus have it. It is often the undiagnosed cause of 'recoil' (actually blast and report) sensitivity.

I will only add the advice my dad once gave me: "When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is STOP DIGGING."


Larry
 
Anyone dismissing the .22LR caliber—or any other caliber—is either unaware of the .22LR's ability to incapacitate or kill and/or its lengthy history. The evidence, both 'good' and 'bad' is out there. The Israelis, British and the US have used it in the clandestine assassination role for decades—with success.

As with any other pistol caliber, the diminutive round has its limitations. Knowing and respecting those limitations, and not pressing the cartridge beyond those limitations, the .22LR is a valid self-defense option. Sure, the .22LR's small projectile mass, diameter and energy require more in the way of precision and placement than its larger brethren, but its nearly non-existent recoil and manageable muzzle signature are conducive to that requirement. All calibers have "failed" at one time or another; the .22LR is not alone in that category and cannot be ruled out for that reason alone. If one is not comfortable with the .22LR caliber, then other options exist.

Of course, the worst thing that anyone can bring to such a discussion is to visit it with a closed mind, but there is little that can be done about that by those in possession of the facts.
 
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Anyone dismissing the .22LR caliber—or any other caliber—is either unaware of the .22LR's ability to incapacitate or kill and/or its lengthy history. The evidence, both 'good' and 'bad' is out there. The Israelis, British and the US have used it in the clandestine assassination role for decades—with success.

As with any other pistol caliber, the diminutive round has its limitations. Knowing and respecting those limitations, and not pressing the cartridge beyond those limitations, the .22LR is a valid self-defense option. Sure, the .22LR's small projectile mass, diameter and energy require more in the way of precision and placement than its larger brethren, but its nearly non-existent recoil and manageable muzzle signature are conducive to that requirement. All calibers have "failed" at one time or another; the .22LR is not alone in that category and cannot be ruled out for that reason alone. If one is not comfortable with the .22LR caliber, then other options exist.

Of course, the worst thing that anyone can bring to such a discussion is to visit it with a closed mind, but there is little that can be done about that by those in possession of the facts.

Well, apparently shooting someone point blank in the forehead is "pressing the cartridge beyond those limitations" because there are heaps and piles of documented cases where .22lr has failed in that exact capacity. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about the fact (there I go using that word again) that just because a gun is used successfully for executions, that doesn't mean it's capable of being a reliable self defense weapon.

Quote 1: I think you misunderstand the basic definition of the word 'fact', to be honest; you keep misusing it, as here.

Quote 2:





Quote 3: This is patently false. Hyperacusis is not extremely rare; in fact, 25% of people with any level of Tinnitus have it. It is often the undiagnosed cause of 'recoil' (actually blast and report) sensitivity.

I will only add the advice my dad once gave me: "When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is STOP DIGGING."


Larry

With all due respect, I don't know what that video was supposed to prove. We all agree that .22lr can kill someone. If anything, this proves my hypothesis that a long barrel dramatically increases the odds of it being successful, while a short barrel dramatically increases the odds that it will fail.

Again, .22lr and .32 ACP are probably within one decibel of each other. BTW, I know lots of people with tinnitus, and none of them has ever seemed to have any difficulty shooting loud ass guns. Shoot, I'll bet most people in combat MOSs have tinnitus to some extent. So you'll forgive me if I call BS on that statistic.
 
Well, apparently shooting someone point blank in the forehead is "pressing the cartridge beyond those limitations" because there are heaps and piles of documented cases where .22lr has failed in that exact capacity. I don't know what's so hard to grasp about the fact (there I go using that word again) that just because a gun is used successfully for executions, that doesn't mean it's capable of being a reliable self defense weapon.


(Note 1, below)
With all due respect, I don't know what that video was supposed to prove. We all agree that .22lr can kill someone. If anything, this proves my hypothesis that a long barrel dramatically increases the odds of it being successful, while a short barrel dramatically increases the odds that it will fail.

(Note 2, below)
Again, .22lr and .32 ACP are probably within one decibel of each other. BTW, I know lots of people with tinnitus, and none of them has ever seemed to have any difficulty shooting loud ass guns. Shoot, I'll bet most people in combat MOSs have tinnitus to some extent. So you'll forgive me if I call BS on that statistic.

Note 1: you conveniently fail to mention the other sources, which demonstrate effective use of the .22 in a pistol for self-defense. Considering your challenge was that it was unlikely ONE could be found, I consider your posit disproved.

Note 2: Call 'BS' on anything you like; you're arguing with the Journal of the American Academy of Audiologists.


As far as volume of report go, the .22LR in a rifle is measured at 130dB, while a .32ACP in a pistol is measured at 153.5dB. Considering the dB scale is logarithmic, and thus every 3dB is a perceived DOUBLING in sound volume, even from a pistol there is no way the .22 is comparable to the .32ACP.

I believe this demonstrates the fundamental flaw in your reasoning; you weigh your own small sample, anecdotal evidence as greater than established, statistical data.

You have been proven wrong on nearly every specific you have authoritatively stated to be a 'fact', but continue to support the same position. This would be of concern in a clinical setting.


Larry
 
Additionally; while (rightly, IMHO) criticized for their data collection methods, Marshall and Sanow did collect one of the most voluminous databases on 'real-world' (both police and defensive' shootings ever assembled. Here is an excerpt from their most popular book:

Stopping Power
Top loads for each caliber
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Penetration
Federal 308 168 gr Match 112 110 98% 24.9″
Remington 223 69 gr JHP 40 39 98% 16.9″
Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 615 96% 11.1″
Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 166 96% 13.9″
PMC 30-30 150 gr SF 44 42 95% 19.6″
Remington 40 S&W 165 gr GS 146 137 94% 13.9″
Remington 45 ACP +P 185 gr JHP 77 71 92% 12.9″
Winchester 44 Magnum 210 gr JHP 71 65 92% 16.3″
Federal 357 SIG 125 gr JHP 24 22 92% 12.3″
Federal 9 mm +P+ 115 gr JHP 189 172 91% 13.9″
Winchester 41 Magnum 170 gr ST 61 55 90% 14.9″
Federal 10 mm 155 gr JHP 20 18 90% 12.4″
Speer 9 mm +P 124 gr GD 74 65 88% 13.6″
Winchester 30 Carbine 110 gr JSP 43 38 88%
Winchester 9 mm 115 gr ST 421 349 83% 13.7″
Federal 45 Colt 225 gr LHP 36 29 81% 14.9″
Winchester 38 Special +P+ 110 gr JHP 49 39 80% 12.1″
Remington 38 Special +P 125 gr GS 10 8 80% 12.4″
Winchester 44 Special 200 gr ST 70 53 76% 13.8″
Federal 380 ACP 90 HS 96 68 71% 9.4″
Winchester 32 ACP gr ST 151 99 66% 9.2″
Federal 38 Special 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 10.2″
CCI Stinger 22 LR HP 465 178 38% 7.3″
Winchester 25 ACP gr Expanding Point 204 55 27% 8.9″

BT = Black Talon GS = Golden Saber GD = Gold Dot
HS = Hydra Shok ST = Silvertip LRN = Lead Round Nose
SWC = Semi Wadcutter JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point FMJ = Full Metal Jacket

All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow’s book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition.

While 38% is certainly not a world-beating number, and in fact trails everything else but a .25ACP, I believe that a one in three chance of stopping an attack with one shot fired entirely disproves the statement that a .22 is worthless for defense, especially considering the ease and speed of repeat shots with a .22, compared to any other caliber.


Larry
 
Note 1: you conveniently fail to mention the other sources, which demonstrate effective use of the .22 in a pistol for self-defense. Considering your challenge was that it was unlikely ONE could be found, I consider your posit disproved.

Note 2: Call 'BS' on anything you like; you're arguing with the Journal of the American Academy of Audiologists.


As far as volume of report go, the .22LR in a rifle is measured at 130dB, while a .32ACP in a pistol is measured at 153.5dB. Considering the dB scale is logarithmic, and thus every 3dB is a perceived DOUBLING in sound volume, even from a pistol there is no way the .22 is comparable to the .32ACP.

I believe this demonstrates the fundamental flaw in your reasoning; you weigh your own small sample, anecdotal evidence as greater than established, statistical data.

You have been proven wrong on nearly every specific you have authoritatively stated to be a 'fact', but continue to support the same position. This would be of concern in a clinical setting.


Larry

I saw 150 decibels from a pistol for .22lr. Of course there are different measurement methods, some are taken at the muzzle, some at the ear, and some 10 feet away. Like I said, I've known LOTS of people with tinnitus, but none with what you're describing. I think just about everyone over a certain age has it to an extent. But like I also said, if that's all she can legitimately handle due to medical problems then that's all well and fine, but that doesn't change the facts.

Speaking of facts, I saw the one case where the guy got shot in the eye. I didn't see any others mentioned anywhere. That's called luck, and plenty of it.

Additionally; while (rightly, IMHO) criticized for their data collection methods, Marshall and Sanow did collect one of the most voluminous databases on 'real-world' (both police and defensive' shootings ever assembled. Here is an excerpt from their most popular book:



While 38% is certainly not a world-beating number, and in fact trails everything else but a .25ACP, I believe that a one in three chance of stopping an attack with one shot fired entirely disproves the statement that a .22 is worthless for defense, especially considering the ease and speed of repeat shots with a .22, compared to any other caliber.


Larry

Again, how many of those were psychological stops? A starter pistol could accomplish a psychological stop, but no one in their right mind is going to be doing that.

And are we forgetting the graph that shows .22lr is twice as likely to fail as 9mm etc.??? Seems no one wants to talk about that. And that included .22WMR, as well as .22lr from rifle length barrels. Again, how do you think that statistic would look if we threw out all the cases involving rifles and .22WMR?

You sir are the one who is picking and choosing.

BTW, I didn't say one couldn't be found. I said for every successful physical stop involving a mousegun .22lr I could find you ten cases where one failed. Considering I've already linked to about twenty plus such incidents I think I've been far from disproven on that count.
 
I saw 150 decibels from a pistol for .22lr. Of course there are different measurement methods, some are taken at the muzzle, some at the ear, and some 10 feet away. Like I said, I've known LOTS of people with tinnitus, but none with what you're describing. I think just about everyone over a certain age has it to an extent. But like I also said, if that's all she can legitimately handle due to medical problems then that's all well and fine, but that doesn't change the facts.

Speaking of facts, I saw the one case where the guy got shot in the eye. I didn't see any others mentioned anywhere. That's called luck, and plenty of it.



Again, how many of those were psychological stops? A starter pistol could accomplish a psychological stop, but no one in their right mind is going to be doing that.

And are we forgetting the graph that shows .22lr is twice as likely to fail as 9mm etc.??? Seems no one wants to talk about that. And that included .22WMR, as well as .22lr from rifle length barrels. Again, how do you think that statistic would look if we threw out all the cases involving rifles and .22WMR?

You sir are the one who is picking and choosing.

BTW, I didn't say one couldn't be found. I said for every successful physical stop involving a mousegun .22lr I could find you ten cases where one failed. Considering I've already linked to about twenty plus such incidents I think I've been far from disproven on that count.
[] about this, someone show me one case where a micro .22lr successfully stopped an assailant.[/QUOTE]
 
[] about this, someone show me one case where a micro .22lr successfully stopped an assailant.
[/QUOTE]

That's not the entirety of what I said. I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but not when it turns into a manipulative pissing contest where I have my words bent. I'm out.

For those who still care about "facts" I will leave you once more with this:

NonIncap.jpg


Again, keep in mind that this statistic includes rifles and .22WMR. Logically, what do you think it would it look like if all the cases involving rifles and .22WMR were thrown out, and only cases involving .22lr mouseguns were left? Carry a .22lr if you must, but at least be honest with yourself about the reality of that choice.
 
So after stating that it's a 'fact' that a .22 is not a viable self-defense firearm, you post a chart which indicates that in 60+ % of uses, it incapacitates the offender? Rokay...

I'm also out. I believe anyone reading this thread will be able to judge the relative merits of each argument quite well with what's been posted so far.

Larry
 
That's not the entirety of what I said. I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but not when it turns into a manipulative pissing contest where I have my words bent. I'm out.

For those who still care about "facts" I will leave you once more with this:

NonIncap.jpg


Again, keep in mind that this statistic includes rifles and .22WMR. Logically, what do you think it would it look like if all the cases involving rifles and .22WMR were thrown out, and only cases involving .22lr mouseguns were left? Carry a .22lr if you must, but at least be honest with yourself about the reality of that choice.

Your presentation of a graph that indicates that the .22LR produces incapacitation about 69% of the time contradicts the very argument that you seem to be making.

If you wish to deny the facts—even the ones that you've presented—that is fine. They still exist.

This nonsensical thread is going nowhere good—and fast. Like DT Guy, I am out.
 
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Some sort of gun is better than no gun at all if/when a real life-or-death self-defensive situation arises. For the 'psychological stop' or more simply put plain old intimidation factor, any gun is going to convince a bad guy not to mess with you more reliably than any knife. Of course along with whatever handgun, one needs skills. Aiming well isn't the first priority. Situational awareness is. Learning when it is appropriate/necessary for you to actually pull a trigger is an important intermediary step which almost no 'coaches' in the booming SD tactics industry seem interested in addressing. A gun is a last resort. Now that last resort moment may come up fast, but you need perception, processing, the mental acuity to recognize the actual moment and then of course to act appropriately. Good aim under stress is important, but not the first consideration. Of course once that decision to use deadly force has been made, you had better have the range time behind you such that your shots are on target.

A knife is not point-and-click, hence not suitable for a range of people with various physical limitations. Consider the millions who get around in wheelchairs or even just need to use a cane for mobility. The bigger pistols can be problematic for many of these citizens, who, not coincidentally, are also more likely than average to be victims of crime. Practical knife fighting is a martial art, with witheringly small numbers of people being any good at this at all. Would you ask your mother to defend herself from a vicious attacker with a knife? If the answer is 'yes' then please consider seeking psychiatric help, and maybe apologizing to your mother for being a clueless son.

FMJ has been mentioned a few times, with the tiny .22lr round being obviously exempted on the basis that FMJ isn't available and therefore, on the basis of someone or other's opinion (presented as fact), the bullet simply can't penetrate. Guess again. When velocity goes too high, apparently somewhere around 1,200fps or faster, penetration actually DECREASES with solid lead .22lr, as the bullets begin to expand on contact. At subsonic velocities and going as low as 800fps, penetration INCREASES precisely because the impact is insufficient on most relevant materials (clothing, flesh) to spread the lead. Retaining its shape and very, very small nose surface area, the relative force applied at point of entry relative to resistance of the target material with a .22lr round is higher than with a .45" round travelling at similar velocities. It's simple math. The average .45" bullet has a rounded nose, as does the average .22lr bullet, but the nose radius being so much smaller on the .22lr means it'll by default penetrate much better than the much larger radius on the bigger bullet. Going to any sort of hollow-point round takes away this inherent advantage.

If in doubt regarding the role of projectile nose surface area... here's a mental picture which should make it clear. Imagine you're at an informal party, and late in the evening you find yourself engaged in conversation while sitting on the floor, your hands extended slightly behind you in support. A woman walks past in the low light and doesn't notice your hands, and steps on one with her heel. Would you rather she's wearing a spiked heel with maybe a 0.3" square surface, or a 'cuban' heel which is closer to 1" square?

images


Couldn't find a comparison image online with exactly the ratio I'm referencing here, but you get the idea. The spike heel will likely penetrate like a slipped screwdriver on a hose clamp. The wider heel will maybe leave a bruise, could even crack a bone or two. Don't think that's a fair comparison? It ain't ordnance jello, it's skin, flesh and bone. And a .40" round nosed bullet has about 3.4 times the face area of a .22" bullet. Most .40" SD rounds sold are rated with muzzle velocities in the 980fps to 1250fps range. Pretty similar to .22lr subsonics and standard velocity stuff out of a middle-length rifle barrel, and also similar to .22lr high velocity rounds like the Stingers out of a mouse gun barrel.

For a sometimes-enjoyable and at times rather enlightening read, have a look through this discussion on the subject of .22lr penetration. Especially notable is the fact (actual field tested results, not 'alternative fact' sort of opinion) that supersonic .22lr displayed WORSE penetration than subsonic due to mushrooming. Somewhere between 800fps and 1000fps seems ideal if penetration is your goal. I suppose that might help to explain why even FMJ rounds in larger calibres seem designed for subsonic or at least transonic velocities when intended for SD use.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=150033

And here's an article from NRA Illustrated specifically addressing our question regarding the particular use of .22lr handguns for self defense:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2010/10/26/22-lr-for-self-defense/

For what it's worth, Remington Subsonics I tested out of a 4" barrelled .22lr pistol chronied at an average of 930fps, with CCI SV about 940fps. Doesn't take all that long a barrel to get up to speed. Not that I'm considering CCW, but all this chatter has got me curious, so next time I get out for some shooting I'll have a test piece put together to shoot through. Got lots of different scraps of materials around the shop. I'll cobble something together which seems to emulate several layers of clothing (a jacket and shirt and t-shirt) then skin, fat, muscle, then bone about 1/2" thick, then tape that to a gallon jug of water and shoot into it to see what happens. Some layers of denim, some rubber, bit of dense foam, plastic layers for bone, thick leather, then the jug. If subsonics go through everything including the far side of the jug, I'll consider the question answered in favour of .22lr. If not it seems obvious that either it's a mistake to count on it for lethal defensive shots in one try, or that it'd be a better idea to go for something with higher velocity and a round (non hollow-point) tip. I'm excited, this is going to be fun. Maybe I should bring a knife along and see if it'll stab through it all... but then again probably not, as stabbing heavy clothing and other nonsense beneath tends to result in hand injuries. At least for non-swordsmen or non-ninjas.
 
Okay, I actually got out and tried this today. Structure of the mock-up included 5 layers of new denim lightly taped over everything else, all the remaining layers glued together with contact cement, and that was taped to a gallon jug filled with water and capped with a couple of inches of air in the top to allow for expansion pressure. The laminate under the denim layers included 1/4" new leather, very stiff and difficult to cut, 1/8" rubber similar to tire rubber, 1/2" of 40% expanded PVC sheet, and 1/4" dense 'technical foam.' Idea being clothing layers, skin and fat (though the leather and rubber are a lot harder than those and much more resistant to cutting with a new utility knife), ribs (the expanded PVC is quite tough but slightly porous, similar to ribs in some ways) and more tissue (dense foam).



Then the gallon jug being two more layers of plastic plus and a 6" column of water - dividing by 1.8 one gets the equivalent of 3.3" of government spec ballistic gelatin. For a backstop I used my trap which has about 15 pounds of built-up lead embedded in 5 pounds of Duct Seal, in a hardwood plywood box. It'll stop subsonic .22lr easily, with nothing going deeper than 1.25" and most stopping at 1".

One shot each with rifle and pistol, each shooting Remington Subsonics, rifle at 1040fps, pistol about 930fps. Muzzle about a foot from the target.

The pistol, delivering 76fpe, went right through the jug and the bullet was sitting sideways, not quite buried in the well-used duct seal. Front half of the bullet was swollen, not mushroomed, but sort of bulged to about 0.275" average, the back half almost intact but slightly widened.

penetration_test_expansion.JPG

The rifle at 96fpe also went through the jug, the bullet hitting nose-first and similarly not quite getting buried. The front half bulged in a more mushroom-like shape but still swollen more in the middle of that, not flared at the nose, to about 0.30" average diameter. As with the pistol round the rifling was still very clear on the back half.

The expanded PVC layers were shattered, out to about 0.6" with the pistol and well over 1" with the rifle impact. All other layers displayed only small punctures. Same for the bottle, just a small hole barely leaking with the pistol then a crack opening up to join the two exit holes with the rifle shot. Path through the bottle was perfectly aligned with each barrel, looked like zero deflection. Here's a GIF showing the rifle shot at 300fps:

test.gif

This is the lamination sawn in half through the two wounds:
penetration_test_dissection.JPG

And here's the rifle round embedded in the hardened (by thousands of rounds shot into it, lots of hammering to flatten it out) Duct Seal:

penetration_test_duct_seal.JPG

Before cutting the laminated materials in half to examine the wound channels I tried a stabbing test, for comparison to a knife attack. Not on the water jug... and not with a knife, as I didn't want to injure myself. I used a very sturdy ice pick with a 0.11" diameter stainless polished blade and very long tapered point. Could not get though the whole structure. Deepest penetration was about half way into the first layer of PVC. I weigh 205lbs. Stood on a scale while applying pressure with the ice pick and watched the scale. At peak, for several seconds, I was applying 110lbs to the ice pick. So yeah, I'd not want to be trying to defend myself with a knife, at least not by stabbing with one, and an ice pick is definitely out of the question. And it seems unlikely that slashing at loose clothing with ANY knife is a very wise move. Bare skin only, and preferably nowhere near any ribs.

My conclusion? I'd compare my silly little mock-up of the tissues involved with a human torso by suggesting that it's tougher to penetrate than the real thing. Considerably tougher. Subsonic .22lr had no problem penetrating it, then going through the equivalent of 3.3" of ballistic gelatin and at least 1/4" into a medium which I've seen stop 20fpe airgun pellets at about that same depth. Knowing what my 20fpe PCP does to squirrels - pellet going in the forehead occasionally exits the lower abdomen, but if alignment is good doesn't quite come out the butt, and if a side shot always goes clear through the head and embeds into fir fence posts to about 1/2" - I wouldn't want to get hit with even the after-jug residual energy in these rounds. Those impacts were at least 15fpe to the putty. Enough to penetrate flesh to a worrisome, though hardly likely to be fatal depth.

So does this add to the pantheon of evidence suggesting .22lr's utility as a defensive round? Seems to me it does. If I were a CCW permit holder (there's only like 20 in Canada supposedly so that's unlikely for me, as I don't guard the prime minister) I'd consider subsonics out of a 4" barrel or hyper-velocity rounds out of a 2" barrel as being adequate for 'light days' when carrying a full-sized pistol was not practical. Would it be my preference? Perhaps. I like my .22lr pistol, it shoots nicely, and I can group very well with it. It feeds and ejects neatly, has only failed to fire a few times and always with this awful Remington stuff; CCI never fails in any type, and Fiocchi, Federal and other stuff I've tried just as reliable. So the dreaded rimfire unreliability doesn't seem to apply in this case at least, and shouldn't with any decently set up and maintained pistol and quality ammunition.
 
Current argument aside, that was a well conceived and executed test . Very informative.

Larry
 
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I like how you did the test, too.

Now, do the one with the high heels (and don't forget the pics!) :evil:
My wife wears flip-flops or goes barefoot mostly, though in colder weather she'll opt for clogs, and even hiking boots if it gets really nasty. Running shoes too of course as she runs every day. High heels have never infested her lovely feet, and I hope they never will. Horrid things.

Thanks for the approval. Did a fair bit of head-scratching trying to guess what I have on hand that would at least slightly exceed the resistance of living tissues. This seems to have been good for that. I've had a few opportunities to test the strength of flesh... slipping with various sharp tools. Yeah, we're pretty pathetic at resisting punctures. And when I shoot into a box of rags with an airgun I have to be sure there's at least 30 or 40 layers, as anything with squirrel level power is too likely to come out the back side of the box otherwise. So clothing isn't really much of a match for .22lr. Tried a shot through a half-gallon bucket with 2 old t-shirts wadded up tightly in it, probably 50 layers in all. CCI SV round came right through the bottom of the bucket into the putty trap. Taking out the t-shirts I saw a LOT of dark-edged little holes where the single round had penetrated.
 
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