Remington vs. Savage

That is hilarious. I needed that. Thank you very kindly.8)

Oops. Fat thumbs.

Bart B. said:

Last time I checked, all Savage centerfires have just under 2 ms lock time. Some say fastest of all factory centerfire actions. Rem and Win have about 3 ms lock times and have heavier firing pins than Savage.

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Cool i remember reading they were around 5, I likely jist remembered wrong it seems.

In my limited experience, my Savage rifles have some of the fastest lock times of anything I've ever shot.

I once sold an excellent sporterized Swede 6.5x55 specifically due to the slow lock time. Remingtons - to me - have a medium-slow lock time.

I think Savage is even worse than the Rem 700.
They both need a new trigger, barrel, stock, lug.

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We have clearly had two different experiences with Savage rifles. I've never felt the need to replace an Accutrigger and once I tune one and polish the surfaces, I doubt anyone would agree it could be improved. Barrel? Are you kidding? Savage barrels are well known for their accuracy. I've been able to achieve well below MOA groups to 300 yards with every "factory" Savage I've owned, and they all had the "flimsy" sporter tupperware stock - not the Accustock - OR a heavy barrel. Not sure why you've had the issues you have with Savages but I'm completely sold on them for the best value in hunting rifles.

Newtosavage said:

We have clearly had two different experiences with Savage rifles. I've never felt the need to replace an Accutrigger and once I tune one and polish the surfaces, I doubt anyone would agree it could be improved. Barrel? Are you kidding? Savage barrels are well known for their accuracy. I've been able to achieve well below MOA groups to 300 yards with every "factory" Savage I've owned, and they all had the "flimsy" sporter tupperware stock - not the Accustock - OR a heavy barrel. Not sure why you've had the issues you have with Savages but I'm completely sold on them for the best value in hunting rifles.

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I am assuming, unless I am in the twilight zone, he was being sarcastic in his post.

Hanzo581 said:

I am assuming, unless I am in the twilight zone, he was being sarcastic in his post.

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I may be in the twilight zone with you then.

Newtosavage said:

In my limited experience, my Savage rifles have some of the fastest lock times of anything I've ever shot.

I once sold an excellent sporterized Swede 6.5x55 specifically due to the slow lock time. Remingtons - to me - have a medium-slow lock time.



We have clearly had two different experiences with Savage rifles. I've never felt the need to replace an Accutrigger and once I tune one and polish the surfaces, I doubt anyone would agree it could be improved. Barrel? Are you kidding? Savage barrels are well known for their accuracy. I've been able to achieve well below MOA groups to 300 yards with every "factory" Savage I've owned, and they all had the "flimsy" sporter tupperware stock - not the Accustock - OR a heavy barrel. Not sure why you've had the issues you have with Savages but I'm completely sold on them for the best value in hunting rifles.

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I think savages reputation or producing "better" barrels gets a boost from the ease of accurate assembly the design offers. Other designs leave more up to operator error/variation.

At the risk of going way off topic....is there a way to measure locktime at home without special equipment? Im curious about how changing the spring weights might effect it. I understand how a guns locktime can feel slower, after shooting bolties all day my ar cycle feels noticably slow, as do my hammer guns.....which i guess the ar basically is....

You need special stuff to measure lock time precisely:

http://www.manthei-mess-systeme.com/gb_triggerscan_introduction.htm

Or calculate it using the formula shown in:

https://books.google.com/books?id=6TGCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=calculate+rifle+lock+time&source=bl&ots=8fWPayRX4M&sig=xeBWIw955RU_1RQKqDFWyxsgWv8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0g-C-pYzUAhXJllQKHUPhD1UQ6AEITzAJ#v=onepage&q=calculate rifle lock time&f=false

I googled "calculate rifle lock time" then picked that one.

Scroll up half a page to see all the info.

Made a spreadsheet for my pre '64 Win 70's factory spring (23 pounds at cocked length) and its firing pin and lock bushing. Lock time for factory stuff is 3.33 milliseconds. It changes about 4% for each pound change in the spring rating all the way up to 30 pounds when it's got a 30% reduction in lock time.

Either Savage because of the modular platform. I do like Remington rifles, as well as Winchesters, Sakos, Weatherby, etc. And have owned several. But, for ease and cost of modifying, and/or repairing, I think one is hard-pressed to do better than Savage's modular design.

JMHO,

Geno

Interesting stuff on Savage lock time:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-347697.html

Because firing pin springs weaken with age, here's Sierra's test info on what happens when an old spring's replaced:

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2015/09/09/is-it-time-to-replace-your-firing-pin-spring/

Please....

If anyone's got a Savage 110 long action, could you strip the bolt then weigh its firing (striker) pin, spring and other parts that move to fire the primer? I wanna use that formula to see what happens when spring's changed to a different force rating.

Thanks for your support.

I would, but only short actions in my stable.

I only have a short action as well but I can weigh it for you if you like. I can probably rig up something to measure the spring rate as well on my cut down spring.

Same.....tho i know someone with an older 110 long. Might be able to get him to do it.

Thanks to all for your support. I'll put data in a spread sheet with 1 pound increments of striker springs.

PS:

Forgot to ask for striker fall distance; .24" or .27" whatever ......

Bah I failed, the guy who bought my old 300 dosent have it anymore.

I bought a Savage around six years ago in .243. It had the AccuStock, AccuTrigger and hinged floor plate. It was incredibly accurate. I didn't like the trigger. I sold it and bought a Vanguard. If Savage were the only rifle available to me I'd gladly own one, but I'd prefer a Remington. Remington has definitely fixed their quality issues.

someguy2800 said:

Savage makes absolute top quality barrels, the receivers are always true and correctly drilled,

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I mounted scopes for two years at a very big store and Savage was the most likely to not be drilled and tapped true for scope mounts. To be fair we probably sold more Savages than other brands but it still happened most frequently with Savage.

I've heard the same thing about several makes. Asked some store folks how they figured that out. Most said after centering scope adjustments midpoint between limits then scopes were mounted then bore sighted, click count from scope center was all over the place.

One store's clerk at their gun rack was nice after I mentioned that centering scope adjustments didn't center them close to bore sight when mounted. He agreed to spin a bore sighted scope in a pair in V cuts in a cardboard box as I suggested. That scope was very close to being centered; a few MOA off. Then he counted adjustment clicks to both stops and centered them; the popular way. He was amazed that they were many MOA off from bore sight when put back on the rifle. After setting both adjustments back to the correct zero, the scope was again close to bore sight and a few MOA change put it back.

The other store's clerk at the rifle section said all scopes' adjustment zero's were in the middle of their range unless they were bent. No way was he going to spin a scope in V cuts in a box because that's a waste of time.

I believe most people think like that other store's clerk. All scopes adjustments are not set to center nor when packaged for sale. Neither are their knob caps set to zero. It's best to check them before mounting.

On Savage pins, either would work. I'd estimate weight difference comparing lengths.

Note the friction between moving and fixed surfaces will increase calculated lock times. The difference shouldn't be more than a few percent.

Thanks for what you're doing.

The pursuit of knowledge is sometimes at slow speeds on the road to intelligent reasoning. We've got to slow down when the road makes sharp turns at blind corners to navigate them correctly. Otherwise, we go off road and sometimes crash. (Read, or was taught, that some years ago in a problem solving course.)

I'll go take mine apart.

On a side note, Bart do you have any data on what amount of energy is needed to ignite primers consistently and is there much difference between a large and small rifle primer in energy required?

No idea on energy because pin weights and their velocity numbers can vary. So will foot pounds. My Model 70's pins weigh about 2.7 ounces (1180 grains). They strike primers at about 7 fps (.25" travel in .003 seconds). You can use bullet foot-pounds calculators to calculate energy.

Don't know about small rifle primers. I've used Rem 7.5's in Rem 308 BR cases that worked well in all ambient temperatures. WW, FC, CCI, Rem 6.5 and one other small rifle primer often failed in cold weather in 308 Win cases. Others have reported likewise.

From what I've gleaned from factory and arsenal folks, pins need to dent large rifle primers at least .020" before pellet detonation starts. Some may need more. Deeper several thousandths before uniform pellet detonation happens Kill some primers with oil or water, sest them in empty cases, fire them them measure their dent depths. Some folks are surprised at how shallow they are. With live ammo, pins get pushed back several thousandths.

A nice round tip minimizes pierced primers. Most centerfire rifles need their striker pin to protrude past the bolt face .055" minimum when against their stop shoulder in the bolt. As some case shoulders are set back a few thousandths from pin impact, that softens the blow.

Alright here is what I got. Keep in mind that none of this will be the same as a stock savage since I have cut my striker spring and I have adjusted the free length.

weight of the striker and everything that moves with it



weight of my cut down spring. I believe you would count half of this weight as striker weight



By installing the bolt in the gun and removing the plug in the back of the bolt I measured that the striker in my gun falls .252"

The free length of the spring is



The length of the spring installed on the striker is



The plug in the back of the bolt further compresses the spring below its installed length. I determined that the compressed spring length with the bolt in the gun and the striker cocked is 1.432"

I measured the spring rate of the firing pin spring to be approximately 23 lbs/inch. So at the installed length that have setup, the force on the striker when cocked would be 20.3 lbs, and 14.6 lbs in the fired position.

The rifle I pick needs to be something I can scope and shoot happily, with at least 2 MOA out of the box, before making any modifications to the stock, trigger, etc. I know that's not exactly a hardcore accuracy requirement.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against brands of rifles other than Savage.

All of the rifles in your list will do it. Here is my personal experience: Savage rifles rock. The Accu trigger, the after market bolt handles available, and the seemingly inherent accuracy of Savage guns is just refreshingly simple. I have the Hog Hunter. It is basic, but so accurate. I dipped the stock and replaced the bolt handle (308) I run full power Sierra 180 round nose without my suppressor, and subsonic 180's (home moly coated with my Gemtech Dagger. Accurate, accurate, accurate. The Hog Hunter is meant to be handy, it's a little heavy and a hunter's pal. (8lbs fully dressed.) I think the stouter barrel helps. I run BSA scopes. So I am not spending huge money on optics. Sub one inch groups.
The other Savage I own is the 10 Predator Max. This thing shoot! 243. Not threaded, but in the same class. Heavy fluted barrel, accu trigger....you get the idea. 3/8 inch groups with a number of loads. I turn the 243 case necks. The rifle tips 9lbs.

The spring from my 11s still stock length lemme know if you want tue weight from that. Not sure it would make alot of difference.

Here's my spreadsheet on that Savage short action lock times given the data supplied:

The factory spring's rated at 28 pounds.

Yes, the other spring's weight would be a fair comparison. Is it an original factory one?