Who doesn't have an AR15?

LoonWulf said:

I dont have any experience with over the counter complete ARs besides what ive shot for friends, or folks at the range. My own builds I expect sub 2moa from them as a matter of course, my worst upper was a scrap parts build that shot that well. My cobbled together 6.5G shoots 100grn balistics wonderfully, and did sub 2moa (i wanna say 1.5 but i never measured the groups) with Hornady factor ammo and 123grn handloads.

My one factory upper is a .458socom from Radical, that puts a mags worth of 300grn nosler ballistics into 2" at 100yds with a 5x scope.

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Oh sure, with moderate experience with a platform, one can usually obtain fairly decent accuracy with working through a build. But I've found it unreasonable to expect newbies to the platform to achieve anywhere near the same level of accuracy at the same cost. And I bet even with moderate experience, the build cost of the rifles above is a lot more than the $399 quoted in the original post.

The grendel yes that one was probably 500-550 total, and the .458 was 500ish just for the upper.

My lower build cost about 200 (little less but cant remember how much) and most of my .223 uppers were 50 for the upper, 100ish (bought an ebay special for 60) as for the barrel, 50 for the hand guard, 90 for the bcg, and 30-50 for for the other misc stuff.

So were looking at 450-550 ish.

That was two years ago with retail cost. A 399 dollar production gun NOW would probably have better parts than i used, and i scrounged hard.

Berger.Fan222 said:

It depends on the application. No doubt, MOA accuracy can be had in ARs, but not in the cheap ones. I've seen lots of < $500 bolt guns in .223 shoot sub-MOA. I've never seen it (personally) in a cheap AR. By the time you put a heavy barrel on most ARs, it is unbalanced: OK for benchrest and bipod work, but not really right for the running and gunning tactical games. The inexpensive ARs I've seen my friends shoot are 4-8 MOA deals with most ammo. Tuned hand loads or factory match loads found by trial and error can sometimes reduce group sizes to 2 MOA but even that does not seem to be consistent from one range trip to the next.

But the ergonomics are also problematic. It is no problem for a big guy like me to shoot an AR to it's full accuracy potential from a benchrest or prone, but the balance, weight, and fit of them does not work well from the other positions if there is any time pressure at all. I'm sure all that can be fixed with sufficient customization, but by the time you fix the inherent accuracy and the fit, you're talking about a lot more than the $399 mentioned in the original post.

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My S&W M&P 15 Sport (original version with 1 in 8" twist 5R barrel) cost $599, and with decent ammo with good bullets is consistently under 1.5 MOA at 100 yards from a rest. It won't do that with cheap 55 gr FMJ ammo, but even that stuff rarely exceeds 3 inch groups for 5 shots at 100 yards. I gave seen both the Sport and the Ruger AR 556 for around $500 online. I think the mediocre accuracy reports are more indicative of the $6 a box factory ammo than the AR-15 platform. Try the Fiocchi Extrema V-MAX ammo, or the Federal American Eagle Tipped Varmint stuff, and you will see much better performance. (or my handloads with 40 gr tipped bullets and Ramshot TAC)

2ndtimer said:

My S&W M&P 15 Sport (original version with 1 in 8" twist 5R barrel) cost $599, and with decent ammo with good bullets is consistently under 1.5 MOA at 100 yards from a rest.

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Friends and family have 5 or 6 of the M&P 15s and this has not been our experience, even with "match grade" ammo and my handloads with the 55 VMAX and match bullets. These are handloads that will shoot MOA from any match grade bolt action rifle. Yet getting < 2 MOA from the M&P 15s is tricky business. I've succeeded in one rifle with a mild load and tweaking the OAL of the 55 VMAX. I've tried a lot of different loads, and getting 1-2 MOA with loads too mild to cycle the action is not very hard. But loads that cycle the action are very challenging to make accurate in the rifles we are working with. I'm an experienced reloader who has provided ammo accounting for 4 1st place finishes in NRA national matches and 2 perfect scores in NRA high power, in addition to a long string of victories in bench rest and F-Class competitions. I'm very confident that when it comes to the M&P 15s, it's not the arrow or the indian, it's the rifle. You may have gotten lucky. One family member does report they have an M&P 15 that is a sweet shooter, but I have not personally witnessed the groups.

It sounds counterintuitive, but in both my 1 in 8" twist AR's, I have had best results with the 40 gr tipped bullets (V-MAX, Ballistic Tips, Z-MAX, and Varmageddons). Have you tried any of those? I load them with near maximum loads of TAC, and have been very happy with the results. Likewise with the Fiocchi factory 40 gr V-MAX loads.
Although I admit that my son's later production 1 in 9" twist Sport did not shoot nearly as well as my older version. It was still under 2 MOA, though.

2ndtimer said:

It sounds counterintuitive, but in both my 1 in 8" twist AR's, I have had best results with the 40 gr tipped bullets (V-MAX, Ballistic Tips, Z-MAX, and Varmageddons). Have you tried any of those? I load them with near maximum loads of TAC, and have been very happy with the results. Likewise with the Fiocchi factory 40 gr V-MAX loads.
Although I admit that my son's later production 1 in 9" twist Sport did not shoot nearly as well as my older version. It was still under 2 MOA, though.

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Thanks for the tip. It may be useful, but only for shorter range work. Over the years, we've shot plenty of 40 grain VMAX loads in bolt action rifles, but moved to the 55 grain more recently to reduce wind drift and also to reduce the different kinds of bullets. The BC of the 55 VMAX is good enough to remain supersonic at 600 yards in NRA Mid-Range events. Depending on the muzzle velocity and environmental conditions, the 40 VMAX goes subsonic somewhere between 300 and 600 yards, so it is really only a short range proposition.

I'll mention the 40 VMAX idea to the friends and family that I assist with load development, but given their complaints about the wind drift of the 55 VMAX, I don't think they'll be enthusiastic. And that bullet will certainly NOT be acceptable to anyone thinking of using an AR for hog or deer hunting or self defense. Rifles with 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 twists really need to be able to shoot 69-77 grain bullets accurately, or their use is limited to punching paper at short range. Most people who buy ARs have in mind the full range of possible applications allowed under RKBA, not just shooting paper and varmints.

I used some old 40 grain Sierra soft points in my 1-7 twist BREN 805 with good results, but paper punching only, of course.

Hi folks. I have been a member on THR for, I think about 8-10 years but haven't visited in ages. I voted on this survey because AR prices have come down and if they stay down long enough I would like to get an AR 15 and an AR 10. I despised the AR 15 and the 5.56x45 round it shot ever since the gun's not so impressive debut in Vietnam. Although I didn't serve due to being a couple years too young, I knew a lot of guys who did. I don't think I spoke with even one Vietnam vet who came home and said he liked the M16, even after the powder switch that caused so many early problems was corrected. Most guys I talked with said they liked the M 14, M1 Garand, and AK 47 better, even an M1 or M2 carbine was preferable to a few. But after all these years there generally aren't any serious bugs in any of them made by the reputable manufacturers and the modularity means there are so many things you can do with them, so many different calibers, that the only reason I haven't already got at least one AR 15 and one AR 10 is money is just too tight for me these days. Maybe soon...

I served and had no problem with it. It did its job. As you stated others preferred this and that. I preferred the M14 except for humping it and ammo. Weeks ago I purchased a faux AR. S&W M&P 15-22 for me and 7 yr old grandson. He did great with it and I had too much fun with it. Yesterday I ordered a complete upper (PSA) for my AR carbine. This must stop!

jonnyc said:

Had an M-16A1 issued to me in the IDF, carried it a lot in a desert environment. OK, it was a training issue rifle and we hadn't heard of dri-lube in the 1980s, but that bastard jammed all the time. I was so happy in advanced training when I got issued a Mag58. Since then I've nursed a general dislike of the M/AR platform. Give me an AK anytime (Mag58s really are a bit too heavy for regular use).

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OK, sorry, but I'm embarrassed to say that I have to change my vote...sort of. Went in to work today and bought an SAA lower. Got a Palmetto email earlier today with a nice lower kit special and couldn't resist. Now I can hunt for "cheap" uppers in 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel.

I was a handgunner and a bolt action guy. Then in 2006 a gal named Nancy made some waves and I assembled my first.

Because of that MANY of my friends have wound up with more than a couple.


Thanks Nancy.

MosinT53Hunter said:

I have had one, but just couldn't get used to it. I love wood and steel, and maybe its just me, but I couldn't stand the "twang" from the buffer spring in the stock every time I shot it. I have a very nice sks now, and couldn't be happier.

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I like the twang ing the stock, makes a different sound when the bolt locks back on empty.

I want one. Already have 9mm and 270 Winchester bolt

Berger.Fan222 said:

Oh sure, with moderate experience with a platform, one can usually obtain fairly decent accuracy with working through a build. But I've found it unreasonable to expect newbies to the platform to achieve anywhere near the same level of accuracy at the same cost. And I bet even with moderate experience, the build cost of the rifles above is a lot more than the $399 quoted in the original post.

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Why would someone want to try and build a low end AR in that range?
Now I agree at least some experience in the platform is needed to build a decent value AR.
If you want uber cheap, reliable etc watch PSA's sales and snap a lower to an upper and add a sight system.

In my case, I've done a purchased AR, sold it, then went the above mentioned PSA route. I actually like the cheap PSA better than the mid level AR I had prior. But there are some things I don't like. The worst being the cheap stock and handguard.

So I decided to build a value build. Not the cheapest I could find but the best value for the money. I'm documenting it in a thread. But the gist is to build a better gun and learn how to get into the guts. So going this route I've spent about $100 more than a blemish PSA lower goes for on their regular sales. But for that I get a much better stock, a better pistol grip and an ALG trigger upgrade over the PSA mil spec trigger. And I now know how to assemble a lower.

For the upper I need to get a few tools, then the parts. I could have picked up a PSA upper close to what I wanted, but the twist rate was different. And one of the objectives of the project is to put it together myself. I expect when all is said and done the finished upper minus optics will wind up being between $300 and $400. So I'll be about $600 for a good quality AR. Sure it's $200 more than a bare bones AR but when you compare parts it seems like a great improvement to me.

Beyond that I may be mistaken but the BGC and barrel are the most critical parts of the upper as long as the upper in in spec. So how much to spend on those items depends on what you're doing.

For most people who only casually shoot IMHO a cheap AR is great. But as one learns more, shoots more, and starts to get competitive then a few more dollars spent wisely can really get you a nice rifle for not a lot of money. And yes the sky's the limit if you want but staying restrained those of us who have other obligations can still have nice ARs

Hokie_PhD said:

Why would someone want to try and build a low end AR in that range?
Now I agree at least some experience in the platform is needed to build a decent value AR.
If you want uber cheap, reliable etc watch PSA's sales and snap a lower to an upper and add a sight system.

In my case, I've done a purchased AR, sold it, then went the above mentioned PSA route. I actually like the cheap PSA better than the mid level AR I had prior. But there are some things I don't like. The worst being the cheap stock and handguard.

So I decided to build a value build. Not the cheapest I could find but the best value for the money. I'm documenting it in a thread. But the gist is to build a better gun and learn how to get into the guts. So going this route I've spent about $100 more than a blemish PSA lower goes for on their regular sales. But for that I get a much better stock, a better pistol grip and an ALG trigger upgrade over the PSA mil spec trigger. And I now know how to assemble a lower.

For the upper I need to get a few tools, then the parts. I could have picked up a PSA upper close to what I wanted, but the twist rate was different. And one of the objectives of the project is to put it together myself. I expect when all is said and done the finished upper minus optics will wind up being between $300 and $400. So I'll be about $600 for a good quality AR. Sure it's $200 more than a bare bones AR but when you compare parts it seems like a great improvement to me.

Beyond that I may be mistaken but the BGC and barrel are the most critical parts of the upper as long as the upper in in spec. So how much to spend on those items depends on what you're doing.

For most people who only casually shoot IMHO a cheap AR is great. But as one learns more, shoots more, and starts to get competitive then a few more dollars spent wisely can really get you a nice rifle for not a lot of money. And yes the sky's the limit if you want but staying restrained those of us who have other obligations can still have nice ARs

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My budget build turned into a $2500 rifle.


Buying one high quality optic, ruined me.
As did buying one really nice trigger.
That rifle has more than a couple palmetto state armory parts in it. I am a big fan of their barrels and bolt carrier groups.

The optic and the silencer were the spendy parts.


You can build an outstanding rifle with $600 sourcing most of your stuff through palmetto.

JTHunter said:

The ARs never really appealed to me and, now that I'm on a "fixed income", they are out of my price range.
Plus, I don't want to have to buy and stock a different caliber of ammo. The eight I stock now are enough!

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If they don't appeal to you then that's a valid reason. I seriously doubt that if you really wanted an AR that you couldn't afford one. Worse case you could do like some of us do and but the parts as funds allow. I did that with my PSA lower and upper. And I'm doing it with the build I told about above.

What's another caliber or two if you already have 8? ;-)

My brother thought I was nuts for buying a 45 pistol to be my new carry gun. He believes in only having a few calibers to stock. Since I have a 9mm, my thought was having a caliber that uses large pistol primers (with the right brass) would be good in case components get hard to find. Sure sorting brass by head stamp and primer size is a pain, but I like knowing that once I get the 45 dies. The only thing I need to reload it are bullets.

In the AR world I only have 223. But I can see adding a 300 BLK and a 6.5 Grendel. To reload the 300 again, dies and bullets plus one toolresize the brass is all I need. For 6.5 I'll need dies, bullets, and some brass.