A new caliber - or not?

Sig Bill said:

Quite true but the 9mm caused more death because more were shot with 9mm. You can't deny that it's a very popular caliber.

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Guess the point was if it was "effete" they surely wouldn't have died right?

Mauser lover, because it was me who talked about "wonder nines" and "the 80s" I believe that some more explanation is needed:
First: the term "wonder nine" refers to a specific group of pistols - chambered in 9mm Luger, double stack magazines, all metal construction, with traditional DA/SA trigger mechanisms. It became a popular term in the 80s. You even have a Wikipedia article about it... But "wonder nine" does NOT refer to contemporary polymer striker fired pistols, or to the Browning Hi-Power.
Second: stacked, or double column, magazine was invented by Dieudonne Saive - a Belgian guy, and not by John Browning. Belgium is in Europe, by the way... As much as I admire the genius of John Browning, truth is of more significance for me.
And third: I mention the 80s simply because this is roughly the time frame when 9mm Luger pistols started to get noticed in the US by civilian shooters. Those pistols, wonder nines, started to get real attention only after Beretta won the US Army pistol trials with the 92F.
Just because Browning Hi-Powers, Walther P38 and etc. were sold decades before those events in the US does not mean, that 9x19 pistols were wide spread and popular. That's it.

Hold on a second... I'm not trying to insult anyone.

"First: the term "wonder nine" refers to a specific group of pistols - chambered in 9mm Luger, double stack magazines, all metal construction, with traditional DA/SA trigger mechanisms. It became a popular term in the 80s. You even have a Wikipedia article about it... But "wonder nine" does NOT refer to contemporary polymer striker fired pistols, or to the Browning Hi-Power."

Whats the "wonder"? Being chambered in 9mm Luger is old, as we have seen. Being of all metal construction is old too. DA/SA is old as well, with some back well before WWII. I had never excluded the current polymer pistols from being "wonder nines". I guess that they don't get to be "wonderful" I figured that "wonder nines" was a term that would adequately fit within the OPs comments about the new (particularly 9mm) pistols.

"Second: stacked, or double column, magazine was invented by Dieudonne Saive - a Belgian guy, and not by John Browning. Belgium is in Europe, by the way... As much as I admire the genius of John Browning, truth is of more significance for me."

This definitely depends upon our definition here. What do we mean by "stacked, or double column"? Mauser had it figured out well before Saive was active. If we amend the definition to referring to a "detachable stacked, or double column, magazine contained within a pistol's grip and feeding from a single position" Saive might have a chance at a place in the history books (which he indeed has). I never said that Browning invented the double stack concept, but that he designed a pistol that kind of kicked off the popularity of higher capacity pistols. If (big if, and I do admit it) I recall correctly, there is a Mannlicher (here lies the "If", I know that the pistol exists, I've seen it, but I don't remember if it is a Mannlicher) design that uses a fixed double stack magazine that feeds from a stripper clip into the grip; from the WWI era. Hey, guess what, they really are all European designs. And JMB, yeah, he was an American. But he was working for the Europeans. There isn't any American bias going on in my posts. Please don't accuse me of lying because of it.

"And third: I mention the 80s simply because this is roughly the time frame when 9mm Luger pistols started to get noticed in the US by civilian shooters. Those pistols, wonder nines, started to get real attention only after Beretta won the US Army pistol trials with the 92F.
Just because Browning Hi-Powers, Walther P38 and etc. were sold decades before those events in the US does not mean, that 9x19 pistols were wide spread and popular. That's it."

This is my point, thank you for making it more succinctly for me. The populace has grabbed hold of something "wonderful" and "new" that is not new. One could say that they (we?) have deceived themselves (ourselves) into thinking that the "latest" thing is the "newest" and therefore best thing. The reality is that the P38 and its predecessors were popular long before the US civilian market latched onto double action autos; and that the Browning/FN designed Hi Power was around long before the civilians in USA felt like they really wanted a double stack. Literally nothing about the new striker fired/high capacity pistols is new (9mm or .45) (other than the material, JMB would have had trouble dealing with 1900s plastics!). Because the new plastic pistols are cheap, they are popular. Let's just face it, we are all pretty much cheapskates! Because of the availability and suitability of plastics as firearm components, the very same designs that JMB, Walther, Mauser, Saive etc. used about 100 years ago are available at significantly reduced prices.

Mauser lover wrote:
To attempt to go back to the op's point, these upstart "wonder nines" perplex me.

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The original post made no mention of a "wonder nine" or high capacity magazines.

The original post asked the question why, when they were introduced within a year of one another one is seen as being more modern than the other.

Mauser lover wrote:
I figured that "wonder nines" was a term that would adequately fit within the OPs comments about the new (particularly 9mm) pistols.

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The original post made no mention of 9mm pistols.

In discussing public perceptions of the 9mm cartridge, I think we would also be remiss to ignore the substantial influence made on that collective perception by the sub-machine gun. From the Bergman MP18 of World War I through the MP38 and MP40 (almost universally known as the Schmeisser), STEN, PPSh 41 with its iconic drum magazine, Carl Gustav, UZI, on in to the contemporary H&K MP5, nearly every example of the entire class of weapons (excepting early examples, weapons from Brazil, Dominican Republic, Italy, Japan and the United States and rare exceptions) was and continues to be chambered for the 9mm cartridge.

Mauser lover wrote:
JMB would have had trouble dealing with 1900s plastics!

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Thank you!

I read that and nearly fell out of my chair laughing.

At the time the 45 ACP and 9mm were being adopted, about all that existed in the world of "plastics" were those derived from wood pulp (celluloid, rayon), animals (caesin, galalith), insects (shellac) and tree sap (rubber).

And then I stopped laughing.

And I realized it would have been possible using 1900's techniques to do an overmould of a skeletal steel frame with vulcanized rubber to produce something very much like a contemporary Glock pistol. Of course, steel stamping and pressing techniques were not very sophisticated in the 1900's so the steel skeleton would have had to have been machined from a solid steel billet - sort of defeating the entire purpose of doing the overmould in the first place.

But I can see someone in a Steampunk novel "inventing" the rubber pistol for the "new" 9mm cartridge.

bikerdoc said:

Seems the old heavy and slow or fast and light debate is still alive.

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BUT, fast and light has gotten faster and lighter...

Some of the above conversation deals with FPE. I believe too much emphasis is placed on energy and not enough on momentum. For example:

9mm: (1150^2 * 124)/450240 = 364 ft-lbs Energy
9mm: ((1150 * 124)/7000)/32.2 = 0.63 slug-ft/sec Momentum

.45 ACP: (850^2 * 230)/450240 = 369 ft-lbs Energy
.45 ACP: ((850 * 230)/7000)/32.2 = 0.87 slug-ft/sec Momentum

As can be seen, though the kinetic energy is essentially the same, momentum of the .45 ACP projectile is 38% greater than 9mm.

Have shot falling plates and bowling pins in my earlier days, I can attest to the effectiveness of .45 banging these items down quickly. Good hits make them go down right now! 9mm not so much.

Don't get me wrong I like both 9mm and .45 ACP (or .45 Colt) very much but for different reasons.

Some of the newer stuff deals with penetration close range, and dissipation at medium range.
FN's PDS firearms shoot the 5.7, designed to penetrate armor and bone at close range, but
which loses a lot of momentum after 150 yards. These units are designed by FN to provide
lighter weight, controllable bursts, a large amount of rounds in the guns(70, between the P90(or PS90)
and the Five seveN), and basic protection for the tech or artillery soldier not carrying a full size
battle rifle.

Mizar said:

In 9mm Luger. NATO adopted 9x19 as a standard small arms cartridge in the early 60s I believe.

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Actually, 9mm x 19 was not officially ratified as "NATO Standard" until 1990, when Spain approved the adopted 9mm as Military standard.

The dates of approval by NATO member nations:

Country - approval - implementation
Belgium - 1962 - 1965
Canada - 1962 - 1965
Denmark - 1962 - 1965
Turkey - 1962 -
United Kingdom - 1962 - 1965
Germany - 1963 - 1965
Greece - 1963 -
Norway - 1963 - 1965
France - 1964 - 1965
Italy - 1964 - 1965
Netherlands - 1964 - 1965
Luxembourg 1965 - 1965
United States 1984 - 1986
Spain - 1990 - 1991
Portugal - 1994 - 1994

I really believe the whole 9mm argument was settled LONG ago when the great archaeologist Dr. Henry Walton Jones Jr. used a 9mm Luger to fend off 3 combatants with one shot. He had previously carried a revolver in .45 ACP so he was familiar with that round. Luckily the fight was captured on film so we can see how impressed he was by the 9mm.

Bassjam, there really is no polite way to put this, but according to a research done by the IMFDB institute, Dr. Jones had a .455 Webley revolver. By the way, if he was smart enough to use a .45 ACP, those soldiers would have had their heads explode from the pressures generated by the hydrostatic shock. I suppose that the idea of using the pitiful 9mm Luger was tossed by some low-life scum with European ancestry, thus ruining Dr. Jones reputation.

Hope this helps,
M.

If one wants someone else DRT, no handgun caliber can come close to 00 buckshot for an approximate shot at fighting distance, OR to an accurately placed round of almost ANY caliber.

Since 12 Ga pieces are quite cumbersome to carry and conceal, the next best option is a hole in the exact right place.

In the end, I personally believe that the combination of being able to shoot and train twice as much for the same money, in a gun that is easier to control, is the greatest advantage of the 9mm over the .45. An accurate "effete" shooter will drop his client much better than a big-boomer just filling his quota of holes "in the black".

Mizar said:

Bassjam, there really is no polite way to put this, but according to a research done by the IMFDB institute, Dr. Jones had a .455 Webley revolver. By the way, if he was smart enough to use a .45 ACP, those soldiers would have had their heads explode from the pressures generated by the hydrostatic shock. I suppose that the idea of using the pitiful 9mm Luger was tossed by some low-life scum with European ancestry, thus ruining Dr. Jones reputation.

Hope this helps,
M.

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He was known to use a .455 Webley, but did use a .45 ACP at times as well.

http://www.indygear.com/igguns.html

And none of the handguns would have caused hydrostatic shock, regardless of caliber.

I like the size of 9mm handguns. The double stack .45's get too bulky.

bannockburn said:

I remember reading somewhere that supposedly back in 1906 the German High Command was actually looking for a less than lethal pistol cartridge. The theory behind this was if you wounded an enemy soldier you possibly exposed several of his fellow soldiers being hit as they attempted to try and help him. More enemy casualties meant fewer enemy soldiers to contend with. Also wounded soldiers would require medical attention, thereby tying up more of the enemy's resources.

I don't know how true or historically accurate any of this is but I could see how it might be logical (and advantageous), to the German generals at the time.

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That's new to me, but it sounds like a version of the same urban legend about the 5.56 x 45 mm. In the absence of better documentation, I suspect it's in the same category as "Just use wasp spray for self defense, it's way better than pepper spray!"