Can I do a NICS in advance?

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You're only partly correct. In TN, the TBI conducts the background check when buying a gun, though they do access the FBI's computers. Our system differs in that the FFL is charged $10 / check, the gun listed is checked to see if it's ever been reported stolen anywhere, and there is no "delayed", only proceed or deny. There is an appeal system though, which was unaffected when the Feds stopped processing them.

In what way am I only partly correct? I said this:
There is only one NICS, hence the name National (not state) Instant Background Check System. Some states use their own system for their carry permit checks. Generally, those are the states whose permits do not exempt a person from a NICS check at an FFL.

There is only one NICS. There is no such thing as a state "NICS". That wouldn't make any sense. You can't have a NATIONAL anything that is used in only one state. There are different systems that are used in some cases, such as Tennessee. Tennessee is one of the states whose carry permit does not exempt a person from a background check when purchasing a firearm, at least partially because they don't use NICS.
 
I may be mixing up something here, but I've had a background check done in advanced, even at big box stores. I haven't bought new in awhile but Im sure Im no felon.
If your background check was performed before you filled out the Form 4473 the dealer committed a felony. If you fill out the Form 4473 AFTER the background check was performed and sign and date the form you are complicit in that felony.
 
If your background check was performed before you filled out the Form 4473 the dealer committed a felony. If you fill out the Form 4473 AFTER the background check was performed and sign and date the form you are complicit in that felony.

You've said this several times now, and you very well may be right. To be blunt though, your statements on the matter carry exactly as much weight as those who say it's fine. Until official documents are presented, nothing anyone says here is of any actual value. Can you post a link to the law or regulation that you're referring to?
 
In what way am I only partly correct? I said this:


There is only one NICS. There is no such thing as a state "NICS". That wouldn't make any sense. You can't have a NATIONAL anything that is used in only one state. There are different systems that are used in some cases, such as Tennessee. Tennessee is one of the states whose carry permit does not exempt a person from a background check when purchasing a firearm, at least partially because they don't use NICS.

While there is only one NICS system, the underlying assertion is patently inaccurate. A NICS exempt permit is a completely distinct concept from a NICS point of contact.

When a NICS exempt permit is issued, the issuing authority conducts a qualifying background check (which is typically re-validated at interval by the issuing authority). The permit must also meet other specific requirements imposed by USDOJ.

NICS State Point of Contacts were devised by numerous states because of provisions of the Brady Law as was in effect between 28 February 1994 and 30 November 1998; which mandated a 5 day waiting period on handgun transfers by licensed dealers/manufacturers/importers subject to an exemption if the state where the transfer was occurring utilized a background check system. Numerous states created systems to work around the requirement of the Brady law and passed statutes regarding the use of those systems. When the NICS system went active on 30 November 1998, there became a sort of parallel systems. In Point of Contact states, some or all firearm purchase checks are routed through a state agency regardless of state permit status- instead of through the NICS section at the FBI. (Some states only implemented state systems for handgun transfers, others like Connecticut use the POC for all transfers). Today states like them because state authorities sometimes feel that it gives a greater degree of control to local authorities over firearm transactions or for other reasons. Personally, I like the Connecticut point of contact system because it allows private party access to the instant check system (unlike the federal system) and helps to avoid transfers to people who legally shouldn't have guns.
 
While there is only one NICS system, the underlying assertion is patently inaccurate. A NICS exempt permit is a completely distinct concept from a NICS point of contact.

Whose underlying assertion are you referring to? If it's mine, let me clarify what my "assertion" was. There is only one NICS. That is my assertion, nothing more, nothing less.
 
You've said this several times now, and you very well may be right. To be blunt though, your statements on the matter carry exactly as much weight as those who say it's fine. Until official documents are presented, nothing anyone says here is of any actual value. Can you post a link to the law or regulation that you're referring to?

First, who the heck "are those who say it's fine" to run the NICS BEFORE the buyer has completed the 4473 and signed it?:scrutiny:
I sure as heck would be entertained by any dealer who admits that.

Second, I already provided the links in post #13.;) Here they are again:
Being that the information in Section A is what is read to the FBI, it's pretty evident that Section A must be completed before the check is called in.
FBI NICS MANUAL: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics-firearms-licensee-manual-111811.pdf/view See page 12.

The FBI "FFL Responsibilities" form that the dealer signs upon enrollment in NICS:
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/ffl_acknowledgement1.pdf/view
 
Doing a federal National Instant Check System NICS Background Check BC ahead of finishing the 4473 signing and transfer would not be practical in Tennessee.

Before the NICS went in effect (Nov 1999), Tennessee had the Application for Permission to Purchase a Handgun. The dealer filled out a form (which was in triplicate). For purchase of a Grendel P10 at a gun shop in town, I walked the paperwork to the police station; the clerk told me to wait at the counter, a quick check of local records was made, they stamped it No warrants this subject, kept one copy and I walked the dealer's and purchaser's copy back to the dealer. We finished the 4473. (State law grounds for denials might not be federal grounds for denials.) For purchase of a Ruger MkII at a dealer in the county, I drove the paperwork to the county sheriff office; the clerk took the triplicate; I went home; the next day, the dealer contacted me the approved dealer's and purchaser's copies had arrived by mail; I went to the dealer and completed the federal 4473 transfer. The city PD and county SO could have sat on the approval/denial up to fifteen days; I guess some anti-gun chiefs or sheriffs did that, for Brady gave high marks to the TN fifteen day waiting period (which could be 15 minutes or 24 hours in a gun-friendly jurisdiction).

Part of the implementation of the NICS in Tennessee was the Tennessee Instant Check System TICS through the Department of Safety which replaced the Application for Permission and the (possible) fifteen day wait. The dealer calls state DoS who runs the TICS on local wants and warrants, then contacts FBI for the federal NICS check. (I have observed the dealer calling to have an NCIC stolen property check done on used guns bought by the dealer but once a new or used gun is in FFL inventory I don't see a point to an NCIC check as part of the TICS/NICS BC but I digress.) When the federal Department of Homeland Security was put in effect, the TN DoS was denied access to the NICS database because federal DHS did not recognise TN DoS as a law enforcement agency; THCP jurisdiction was passed to TN Highway Patrol, until TDoS renamed itself Department of Safety and Homeland Security and was blessed by fed DHS as a LE Agency. Really stupid period there, but I digress again. Oh, did you know there are no gun restrictions in America?

Current policy is to fill out the the 4473 then run the BG check before the purchaser can take possession of the gun. Even though cause for state ICS denial may not be a federal ICS cause for denial, 4473s with denied BCs go in the dealer book.

Now, on why Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit is not accepted to bypass BC for a 4473 transfer. I did fingerprint cards for TBI and FBI background checks to get my handgun carry permit. If arrested on any charge, it is the judge's duty to pull my permit and send it to Nashville until the case is resolved. (My THCP number is also my TN Driver's License number linked to TDL and car tag records. Run my tag number, the car is registerd to TDL number blah-blah with THCP status = yes.) Possession of the permit means I passed the initial BG check and have not been arrested since then. ATF requires that a carry permit be checked against the NICS database periodically for permit holder to substitute permit for NICS check. For that reason, ATF does not recognize THCP as a substitute for an NICS check. Tennessee requires the TICS check for state disqualifiers, local wants and warrants not in the federal NICS database, so a THCP is not acceptable as a replacement for TICS either.
 
^Post #33. So you would have to sign the 4473 prior to the NICS check and commit to the transfer ahead of time.
I see little or no advantage to OP#1 doing the NICS check prior to picking up the gun.
 
^Post #33. So you would have to sign the 4473 prior to the NICS check and commit to the transfer ahead of time.
I see little or no advantage to OP#1 doing the NICS check prior to picking up the gun.

I see the advantage for those who always, or frequently, get delayed. If a delay response is almost certain, and the FFL already has the transferee's information on-hand, why not get the delay started so the transferee needs to make just one trip to conclude the matter?

The advantage of course, must be weighed against the legality of initiating a NICS BG check without a signed 4473 in hand.

The $6M question: "what could possibly go wrong?"
 
I see the advantage for those who always, or frequently, get delayed. If a delay response is almost certain, and the FFL already has the transferee's information on-hand, why not get the delay started so the transferee needs to make just one trip to conclude the matter?
Why not? Because that clearly violates Federal law (you posted the cite).


The advantage of course, must be weighed against the legality of initiating a NICS BG check without a signed 4473 in hand
.
Any dealer who falsifies a Federal document (the 4473) commits a felony. (when he records the date of the NICS check on the 4473)
When the buyer comes in several days later, he would sign the 4473 attesting that his signature was on the form when the dealer initiated the NICS check.....another felony.
When the dealer signs on page 3 he commits ANOTHER felony.

I'm still skeptical that the claims made by Mn Fats are standard practice at any big box store. No one can be that stupid.


The $6M question: "what could possibly go wrong?"
That's what David Abramski thought too.;)
 
The Form 4473 doesn't say that because it's an ATF form, not an FBI form.

Actually the form 4473 does say that on page 3, lower right.

The buyer must personally complete Section A of the ATF Form 4473 and certify (sign) that the answers are true, correct and complete. However, if the buyer is unable to read and/or write, the answers (other than the signature) may be completed by another person, excluding the seller. Two persons (other than the seller or his employees) must then sign as witnesses to the buyer’s answers and signature/certification in question 14.
 
Actually the form 4473 does say that on page 3, lower right.
Well, once AGAIN, you're wrong. I think you can't follow the discussion.:scrutiny:
My post you are disagreeing with is 100% correct.
In post #10 I wrote: "An FBI NICS check cannot be conducted until the buyer/transferee has completed Section A, signed and dated the Form 4473.
Doing a NICS check prior to that may result in the dealer losing his FBI NICS check privileges at the very least."

To which ilbob wrote in post#13: "The form does not say that. Do you have a reference to some rule that does?"
In post#14 I wrote "The Form 4473 doesn't say that because it's an ATF form, not an FBI form. The FBI processes the background check, not ATF." And I gave to references to two FBI documents that confirmed the accuracy of my post.

Tonight, you post an excerpt from the instructions to the Form 4473 that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST.o_O

You are in over your head fella.:rofl:
 
Well, once AGAIN, you're wrong. I think you can't follow the discussion.:scrutiny:
My post you are disagreeing with is 100% correct.
In post #10 I wrote: "An FBI NICS check cannot be conducted until the buyer/transferee has completed Section A, signed and dated the Form 4473.
Doing a NICS check prior to that may result in the dealer losing his FBI NICS check privileges at the very least."

To which ilbob wrote in post#13: "The form does not say that. Do you have a reference to some rule that does?"
In post#14 I wrote "The Form 4473 doesn't say that because it's an ATF form, not an FBI form. The FBI processes the background check, not ATF." And I gave to references to two FBI documents that confirmed the accuracy of my post.

Tonight, you post an excerpt from the instructions to the Form 4473 that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST.o_O

You are in over your head fella.:rofl:

I believe the OP said he was in VA. The FBI does not process the background check in VA, the state does. The link you posted is for an FFL when using NICS. Hence the heading
Responsibilities of a FFL under NICS.

FFL's in VA don't use NICS. They have to be registered with the state police and they have a different set of instructions for a background check.
 
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I believe the OP said he was in VA. The FBI does not process the background check in VA, the state does. The link you posted is for an FFL when using NICS. Hence the heading
"I believe" has nothing to do with it. You posted a nonsensical portion of the Form 4473 instructions that has nothing to do with the NICS check.
Until the buyer/transferee has signed and dated the Form 4473 the check CANNOT be initiated.


FFL's in VA don't use NICS. They have to be registered with the state police and they have a different set of instructions for a background check.
WRONG. States that have their own POC (point of contact) still follow the same procedures.... ie the buyer/transferee must sign the form prior to the NICS check, as do states where the dealer contacts the FBI NICS directly.

Don't believe me? Well, here's ANOTHER reference that backs me up, this time from ATF:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/wha...-prior-transferring-firearm-unlicensed-person

What steps must licensee take prior to transferring a firearm to an unlicensed person?

The following steps must be followed prior to transferring a firearm:
1. The licensee must have the transferee complete and sign ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record.
2. The licensee must verify the identity of the transferee through a government–issued photo identification.
3. Unless an exception applies, the licensee must contact NICS through either the FBI or a State point of contact (POC).
A licensee may not transfer a firearm unless the licensee receives a “proceed” response, or three business days have elapsed since the licensee contacted National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), and the system has not notified the licensee that the receipt of a firearm by such other person would violate the law. Licensees contacting the FBI directly and receiving a “delayed” response will receive information from the FBI indicating when the 3 business day time period elapses. A licensee may not transfer a firearm where a “denied” response is issued by NICS.





Keep on posting nonsense and you'll keep getting corrected. You are out of your element fella.
 
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"I believe" has nothing to do with it. You posted a nonsensical portion of the Form 4473 instructions that has nothing to do with the NICS check.

Are you saying the instructions on the 4473 have nothing to do with a NICS check? The ATF might disagree with you about that statement.

Until the buyer/transferee has signed and dated the Form 4473 the check CANNOT be initiated.


I never said it could. In fact I referenced the instruction for exactly that on page 3 of the 4473.

WRONG. States that have their own POC (point of contact) still follow the same procedures.... ie the buyer/transferee must sign the form prior to the NICS check, as do states where the dealer contacts the FBI NICS directly.

For that portion they do. Again, I never said they didn't. But some of the procedures are different. Here is the procedures they follow in VA if you care to read it.

http://www.vsp.virginia.gov/downloads/firearms/2016 Virginia Firearms Dealers Procedures Manual.pdf

In WA a dealer has interactive software on his computer provided by the state which is his POC for handguns. Some of the input info is the same, some isn't. In a POC state the state determines the eligibility of the transferee, not the FBI. NCIC database may have records that prevent the transfer, but the state may also have records that prevent the transfer that the FBI may not have. State laws are sometimes different than federal law with regards to eligibility and wait periods.

How do you know so much about the procedures in a POC state? Ever run a background check in a POC state?
 
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Am I correct that a dealer only adds the model and serial number to the form AFTER the NICS has been passed?
 
Am I correct that a dealer only adds the model and serial number to the form AFTER the NICS has been passed?

I don't know the definitive answer but, in the transfers I observed, the dealer entered the required information on the form prior to calling in the BG check. I don't believe that information is provided to the NICS.
 
Are you saying the instructions on the 4473 have nothing to do with a NICS check? The ATF might disagree with you about that statement.
Oh good grief. You can't be this obtuse.
First, in post # 39 I pointed out your error in calling my response to ilbill wrong. Now, rather than attempt to defend your nonsensical quoting of instructions on the Form 4473.....you're asking if they have nothing to do with a NICS check?o_O

The instructions on the Form 4473 are for the buyer/transferee and dealer to ensure that the form is completed correctly. IT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THE FBI NICS CHECK!!!!!!!! Wanna know why? Because its NOT the instructions that are for the FBI, but the responses to Questions #1-#16......GET IT? THE RESPONSES, not the instructions. If the buyer or dealer has questions, they should refer to the instructions.



Until the buyer/transferee has signed and dated the Form 4473 the check CANNOT be initiated.

I never said it could. In fact I referenced the instruction for exactly that on page 3 of the 4473
.
Is English your first language? :scrutiny:
I ask because you keep referring to the instructions to "page 3 of the 4473" as if I somehow have ignored them in this thread. In fact, not only have I NOT ignored the directions, I've stated several times that the Form 4473 must be completed before the NICS check is initiated.

And by the way, the instructions you quoted? MENTIONS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE NICS CHECK.

What part of that do you not get?o_O




For that portion they do. Again, I never said they didn't.
Well, yes you did: "FFL's in VA don't use NICS. They have to be registered with the state police and they have a different set of instructions for a background check."
You fail wholly and completely at understanding the PROCEDURE that is a firearms transaction. The buyer completes and signs the Form 4473 and only then can the dealer initiate the background check. IT MATTERS NOT ONE BIT WHAT STATE THE DEALER IS IN. If Massachusetts requires a stool sample or Washington state requires you to give a fingerprint........the dealer will still require that the Form 4473 be completed and signed before he initiates the background check.




But some of the procedures are different. Here is the procedures they follow in VA if you care to read it.

http://www.vsp.virginia.gov/downloads/firearms/2016 Virginia Firearms Dealers Procedures Manual.pdf
OMG!
Did you actually read that? The procedure IS NOT ONE BIT DIFFERENT!!!!!!
The buyer completes and signs the Form 4473 and then the dealer initiates the background check with a NICS state point of contact! In fact, that procedure manual even says that!
Did you read this on page IV-1 ?
The SP-65 form shall be completed in conjunction with the Federal Form 4473, and shall be completed in its entirety prior to the criminal history background check request.

Funny how procedure is exactly the same as in Texas isn't it?
1. Complete and sign the Form 4473,
2. Dealer verifies identity of buyer by reviewing the photo ID.
3. Dealer conducts background check.






In WA a dealer has interactive software on his computer provided by the state which is his POC for handguns. Some of the input info is the same, some isn't. In a POC state the state determines the eligibility of the transferee, not the FBI.
The information is being given to a NICS STATE POINT OF CONTACT.........DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? If you did you wouldn't continue to post this silly nonsense.



NCIC database may have records that prevent the transfer, but the state may also have records that prevent the transfer that the FBI may not have.
NCIC? FBI NICS involves several more databases than NCIC. And yes, I know that there are state and local databases that the FBI doesn't have direct access to. If you would take the time to read up on FBI NICS you'll see that they call those same state databases when there is potentially disqualifying information on a buyer.

State laws are sometimes different than federal law with regards to eligibility and wait periods.
Do you really think I don't know the laws are different in Texas vs Arizona vs Florida vs California vs New York vs Washington? Good grief man. I suppose your head would explode if I told you I don't run any sort of background check on 70% of my buyers......because I don't have to.
You need to read more, post less.



How do you know so much about the procedures in a POC state?
I read. You should try it sometime.



Ever run a background check in a POC state?
Nope, and obviously neither have you.
 
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Elkins45 said: Am I correct that a dealer only adds the model and serial number to the form AFTER the NICS has been passed?
The dealer can fill out manufacturer, model, serial#, type, caliber either before or after running the background check. It's required to fill it out even if the firearm is not transferred.


I don't know the definitive answer but, in the transfers I observed, the dealer entered the required information on the form prior to calling in the BG check. I don't believe that information is provided to the NICS.
It's a good habit to fill it out completely before running the background check.....'cause it's too easy to forget to do it after.
FBI NICS only asks "Type of transaction" (sale or pawn redemption) and "Type of firearm" (Handgun, Long gun or Other Firearm). FBI NICS doesn't get told if its a revolver or pistol, rifle or shotgun, AR stripped lower or PGO shotgun, no model name, no serial# or caliber. For NFA firearms they are just told "Other firearm", doesn't matter if it's a SBS, SBS machine gun or silencer.
 
Well, that right there gives me a great deal of information about the person who posted it.

In the spirit of not getting this thread closed I'm done here.
If you take it as an insult, I apologize. I asked because for around 15% of my customers, English IS NOT their first language.

If English IS your first language, you should think about why I asked that question. You either haven't read what was posted or can't comprehend it.
I posted links to the FBI NICS documents and ATF FAQ's that say what the procedure is...........and your rebuttal is a paragraph from the Form 4473 instructions?o_O


And that right there gives me a great deal of information about the person that posted it.;)
 
I have a CPL and they always have me fill out that form..

I could be wrong but I don't believe a carry permit relieves the requirement to complete a 4473, it simply means a BG check is not required. In other words, you still have to do the paperwork.
 
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