Another excessive use of force

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strambo said:
What stands out to me from the beginning...is yet another case of using a "hammer" when another tool is a lot better. This fascination with guns as these magical self-defense tools to the exclusion of all else drives me bonkers.

He was already in the car, how about this genius, instead of taking 5 seconds to get your magic gun...why not just shut & lock the door, start the car and slam it in reverse? Aaaand before someone says he was blocked in, nope, he could have backed out easy, he'd hit the car behind him yes, but he could have reversed out to screen left and out of the immediate area. Now he's surrounded by steel and glass in a running vehicle vs. stick-boy and not facing a murder charge.

There was an incident posted on another forum where some nut, out of nowhere, jumps on a car hood, then runs away. Predictably, members staring talking about guns. Sheesh! Just back away! Guess what Option A always was in Executive Protection training (and in practice in Baghdad for my team), turn around, drive away. We had FA weapons, we still drove away instead of fighting.
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Almost agree.

After the initial attack,the stick attacker did manage to strike [ and break ] the windshield.

I am not about to second guess the shooter,as I WAS NOT BEING ATTACKED = and I might be in a more comfortable zone with an attack than he.

AND ,they had history which just "MIGHT" have had to do with the attacker being the one with the upper hand in the past.

SO = is it just conceavable that the shooter was injured or hospitalized in the past [ unkowns are not to be judged by me ].

The shooter might also have continued to shoot from TOTAL FEAR, not reasonable to us.

BUT to him it might have to do with the past ----- again.

I am not judging him wrong,but if it were me,I am sure I could have done something else.

BUT --------- it was not me,or you !!.
 
DT Guy said:
This reinforces something that gets too little thought for many without formal training in use-of-force and the legal aspects of self-defense; you have to be able to stop as fast as you start, and it's not 'can I shoot?' but 'MUST I shoot?'

Larry
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Being able to get Moosad Ayoob on your defense team would be VERY helpful here.

If you have read his stuff,and the stuff from the institute of force,you would see a different point of view.

And they do work ALL over the world ,in trials.
 
First shot appeared justifiable. Second shot less so. As soon as third parties showed up (potential collateral damage) shooting should stop.

That third and last shot appears to be deliberate and unnecessary execution. That raises questions about the past history between the two. Which goes beyond what's in the video and raises suspicions. For all I know, the shooter may have provoked and lured the clubber into a killing field for the purpose of execution. The last shot raises questions

Almost a side point: It was not just a stick: it was an iron bar. More dangerous than just a stick, which would have raised the fear and anger of the man initially attacked. We are expecting the man to engage in calm reflection in the face of an upraised and swung iron bar.
 
strambo said:
What stands out to me from the beginning...is yet another case of using a "hammer" when another tool is a lot better. This fascination with guns as these magical self-defense tools to the exclusion of all else drives me bonkers.

He was already in the car, how about this genius, instead of taking 5 seconds to get your magic gun...why not just shut & lock the door, start the car and slam it in reverse? Aaaand before someone says he was blocked in, nope, he could have backed out easy, he'd hit the car behind him yes, but he could have reversed out to screen left and out of the immediate area. Now he's surrounded by steel and glass in a running vehicle vs. stick-boy and not facing a murder charge.

There was an incident posted on another forum where some nut, out of nowhere, jumps on a car hood, then runs away. Predictably, members staring talking about guns. Sheesh! Just back away! Guess what Option A always was in Executive Protection training (and in practice in Baghdad for my team), turn around, drive away. We had FA weapons, we still drove away instead of fighting.
Click to expand...

Perfect example of MMQB.
 
Shaq said:
Perfect example of MMQB.
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One might choose to characterize it that way, but it is how persons given the duties to investigate incidents involving the use of force, to enforce the late, and to decide on evidence presented at trial go about things.
 
Priority list.
  1. It is imperative to survive.
  2. It is critical to stay out of jail.
  3. It is important to mount a successful civil defense.
  4. It's sort of fun and satisfying to be able to convince yourself you're right about the use of deadly force.
I think we all have priority 1 figured out, but after that a lot of people get confused and seem to put priority #4 way too high on the list.

If you want to stay out of jail and keep your worldly possessions, you need to pay attention to what people have to say on the topic. Because people will be on the jury, and frankly, this is a far more sympathetic audience than any jury is likely to be.
 
Deaf Smith said:
The case was in ISRAEL. Sept. 2016.

"Julis Regional Council Head Salman Amar, who was arrested on Monday on suspicion of murder, was recorded shooting to death Munir Labouani, who is seen attacking him with an iron bar; Amar and Labouani were reportedly friendly, and the dispute apparently stemmed from a financial disagreement."

The presiding judge also stated that the current evidence reasonably discredits the claim that Amar acted in self defense. "In order to constitute self defense, several parameters must exist." said the judge. "These are mortal danger, (no) escape route and the immediacy of the event. We can already conclude that some of these did not occur."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4851816,00.html

And get this:

A second relative of Labouani rejected the claim that Amar acted out of self defense. "I don't believe it. This was murder. He could have shot him in the foot, but instead he shot him several times until he died."


Their laws are not like ours at all. In fact they have no CONSTITUTION. No Bill of Rights. Their courts are more like UK courts.
You have a limited right to remain silent because your silence, your failure to give answers to police questions, can in itself be incriminating. In Israel you have to retreat if you can, even if attacked in public.

https://lawinisrael.wordpress.com/


I can't find any trial... so who knows how long it takes over there BUT more than 99% of all criminal cases brought before Israeli courts end in convictions (ie a “guilty” verdict)! Hint hint...

Deaf
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Somebody recently told me that in Israel you are supposed to aim for the legs. Being that the speaker displayed lack of knowledge (or more precisely, "knowledge" of non-facts) during the conversation, I don't put much stock in his statement. But I don't know the actual rules there.
 
Kleanbore said:
One might choose to characterize it that way, but it is how persons given the duties to investigate incidents involving the use of force, to enforce the late, and to decide on evidence presented at trial go about things.
Click to expand...
While that may be true, it means nothing to the ones there when it happens.

They have split seconds to make life or death decisions, and no amount of internet second guessing can help with that.

It's an entertaining way to pass the time, but it's foolish to think it really accomplishes much.

JohnKSa said:
Priority list.
  1. It is imperative to survive.
  2. It is critical to stay out of jail.
  3. It is important to mount a successful civil defense.
  4. It's sort of fun and satisfying to be able to convince yourself you're right about the use of deadly force.
Click to expand...
If you don't do #1, nothing that follows will matter.
You can't be preoccupied with those other things when it's time to act.

You just have to know the laws as well as you can and hope for the best if you feel the need to use any sort of force.
 
Snyper said:
While that may be true, it means nothing to the ones there when it happens.

They have split seconds to make life or death decisions, and no amount of internet second guessing can help with that.

It's an entertaining way to pass the time, but it's foolish to think it really accomplishes much.
Click to expand...

It means everything to the ones there when it happened.

Not speaking here of "internet second guessing". The subject is what invesitators, the charging authority, and a jury will decide,

They will go about an after the fact evaluation,

It is not done coo find an entertaining way to pass th time.

The rest of us can learn from what others did wrong or did right, or we can choose to not try to do so,
 
Shaq said:
Perfect example of MMQB.
Click to expand...
I come from a world that conducts After Action Reviews on every operation as well as studies of battles to include "Field Rides" touring battlefields to learn as much as possible about the good elements of our performance and how to sustain that, as well as what to improve, this includes learning from others. It takes too long (and we may not live through it) if we only learn from our experience, never learning lessons from others.

I honed in on the biggest improvement I saw (that he absolutely could have done) shut and lock the door! This would have given him a lot more time and options...you can call that MMQB if you wish, I'll keep learning and improving the way I know how.

BTW, did you hop on youtube and post the same comment on ASP's site? Isn't MMQB what those videos are all about?
 
Snyper said:
While that may be true, it means nothing to the ones there when it happens.

They have split seconds to make life or death decisions, and no amount of internet second guessing can help with that.

It's an entertaining way to pass the time, but it's foolish to think it really accomplishes much.


If you don't do #1, nothing that follows will matter.
You can't be preoccupied with those other things when it's time to act.

You just have to know the laws as well as you can and hope for the best if you feel the need to use any sort of force.
Click to expand...

"Internet second-guessing" can't help them, but it can certainly help you if it informs your thoughts, actions and TRAINING, revolving around use of force situations. Unless you think you have no control over with will happen in those few seconds. If that is the case, what separates the best military and LE operators from the typical CCW holder when it comes to combat performance? Are survival and staying out of jail mutually exclusive? Or, is one (staying out of jail) out of your control in those few seconds? Or, are there operational methods that can be learned and trained (and continually improved) to vastly improve one's odds of staying out of jail? Are you saying if this shooter had had gobs of "shoot-no shoot" and reactive target (stop shooting when they fall) training along with legal training from the likes of Ayoob he'd be in this predicament anyway? (He would if he wanted to murder the guy, no training trumps will)

Lastly, if the week prior to this event, the shooter was on this forum and saw a thread on a video almost exactly like this and he read and participated in it, might it have influenced his thoughts on justifiable use of force, couldn't it have had an impact? Otherwise, why is anyone watching and commenting on this stuff, sick entertainment? That's not why I'm here...
 
herrwalther said:
The only thing the defender did wrong was the shot to the back of the head. If someone busts my window with a stick trying to re arrange my face, he is getting shot to stop the threat. The execution shot to the back of the head was the wrong and unnecessary portion. Which is what the presenters of the video are demonstrating.
Click to expand...

So many people miss this point. Arguments can be made back and worth about the necessity and situation for the first few shots and if they were justified, if other options were a better tactical choice or if the sky was blue that morning. What can't be argued, and what sent this man to jail and would send anyone to jail in every country I know, was the execution shot. The right to use lethal force in self defense absolutely ends when the threat ends. By continuing to use lethal force after a bystander has interposed themselves and created a barrier to the conflict, the shooter switches from legal self defense to murder.
 
old lady new shooter said:
Somebody recently told me that in Israel you are supposed to aim for the legs. Being that the speaker displayed lack of knowledge (or more precisely, "knowledge" of non-facts) during the conversation, I don't put much stock in his statement. But I don't know the actual rules there.
Click to expand...

I consider when people say they should have 'aimed for the legs' or 'shoot the gun out of their hand' or 'fire a warning shot' they do not have a clue to what can happen. Bullet might sever the femoral artery in the leg, or miss and hit someone else (as happened to a cop recently when he shot a dog and the bullet ricocheted and killed a young man), or the bullet pass on through and still hit someone.

As Tuco would say..."When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." But in this case... if you have to shoot, shoot to stop them in their tracks.

Deaf
 
Deaf Smith said:
I consider when people say they should have 'aimed for the legs' or 'shoot the gun out of their hand' or 'fire a warning shot' they do not have a clue to what can happen. Bullet might sever the femoral artery in the leg, or miss and hit someone else (as happened to a cop recently when he shot a dog and the bullet ricocheted and killed a young man), or the bullet pass on through and still hit someone.
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Absolutely!
 
Snyper said:
.....You just have to know the laws as well as you can and hope for the best if you feel the need to use any sort of force.
Click to expand...
No, there's a lot more one can do it he's serious about his performance in a crisis.

  • He can train and practice, especially focusing on fundamentals to become as proficient as he can so the mechanics of shooting accurately become reflexive.

  • He can compete. Competition, especially IDPA and USPSA, gives one experience performing under stress.

  • He can do simulator and force-on-force training. When properly done this sort of training improves one's powers of observation and decision making under stress.

So there is a lot more one can do besides just trying to memorize the law and hope for the best.
 
old lady new shooter said:
Somebody recently told me that in Israel you are supposed to aim for the legs. Being that the speaker displayed lack of knowledge (or more precisely, "knowledge" of non-facts) during the conversation, I don't put much stock in his statement. But I don't know the actual rules there.
Click to expand...

I have worked with straight leg IDF units as well as did a cross training exercise with the Mossad, they don't train to shoot for the legs unless there is a specific rule of engagement (hostage situation, HVT capture etc) just like we do. In a country that requires a couple years of military service, I do not expect the populace to have the same attitude to training.
 
Kleanbore said:
It means everything to the ones there when it happened.

Not speaking here of "internet second guessing". The subject is what invesitators, the charging authority, and a jury will decide,

They will go about an after the fact evaluation,

It is not done coo find an entertaining way to pass th time.

The rest of us can learn from what others did wrong or did right, or we can choose to not try to do so,
Click to expand...
That may be your "subject", but it wasn't mine.

The "MMQB" doesn't matter to the person at the time the incident is occurring.
All they have to go on is their own perceptions from their own point of view,
Nothing that takes place afterwards will change any thing,
 
Frank Ettin said:
No, there's a lot more one can do it he's serious about his performance in a crisis.
Click to expand...

The context of my comment was avoiding jail and lawsuits, which was part of the post I quoted.

I seldom write essays that include every possibility.
People quickly lose interest with long winded posts.
 
strambo said:
Lastly, if the week prior to this event, the shooter was on this forum and saw a thread on a video almost exactly like this and he read and participated in it, might it have influenced his thoughts on justifiable use of force, couldn't it have had an impact?
Click to expand...
I suspect it would have had no effect at all since he still only had split seconds to react to a violent attack.

There are differing opinions here as to what he should have done, so there's no reason to think the outcome would be that much different.

I've read some posts here stating that people "panic" under stress and aren't capable of thinking or even interpreting what they see going on around them.

Look for the thread about an incident on a subway car.
 
Snyper said:
The context of my comment was avoiding jail and lawsuits, which was part of the post I quoted....
Click to expand...

So was mine. But as usual, you just don't get it.

What does "know the law as well as you can" really mean? One can have the law memorized and understand it backwards and forwards while sitting in his easy chair at home. That's not going to be much help on the street in a violent incident, although it can be a useful starting point.

But if one's goal is to both survive the incident and stay out of prison, he needs be able to apply the legal principles quickly, under stress to make good decisions. Some of the training I outlined will increase one's ability to make good decisions quickly, under stress.

Snyper said:
...I seldom write essays that include every possibility.....
Click to expand...
I know. That's one of the reasons it's generally not worth paying much attention to anything you write.

Snyper said:
...People quickly lose interest with long winded posts.
Click to expand...
Not everyone has as short an attention span as you do.
 
Snyper said:
The "MMQB" doesn't matter to the person at the time the incident is occurring.
All they have to go on is their own perceptions from their own point of view,,
Click to expand...
Alrighty, then.

Snyper said:
Nothing that takes place afterwards will change any thing,
Click to expand...
But what takes place afterwards--in the investigation, in the charging decision, and in a court of law--will decide everything.
 
Snyper said:
I suspect it would have had no effect at all since he still only had split seconds to react to a violent attack.
Click to expand...
That there were only split seconds to react is in almost every use of force incident, and what the defender understands will have a tremendous effect.

Snyper said:
There are differing opinions here as to what he should have done, so there's no reason to think the outcome would be that much different.
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I have seen no responsible opinion offered to the effect that the man acted properly.

Snyper said:
I've read some posts here stating that people "panic" under stress and aren't capable of thinking or even interpreting what they see going on around them.
Click to expand...
And?
 
Kleanbore said:
That there were only split seconds to react is in almost every use of force incident, and what the defender understands will have a tremendous effect.

I have seen no responsible opinion offered to the effect that the man acted properly.

And?
Click to expand...
You're entitled to your opinions on that as well.
Not everyone agrees.
 
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