About Home Defense gun selection - why no shotshell revolvers

hdwhit · Jul 20, 2017

RPRNY wrote:
And here's another Wikipedia citation that will help explain that phenomenon:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

I don't think that was helpful or even particularly relevant. The same could be said of everyone who bought an over-priced AR during the pre-election panic.

The various incarnations of the Judge are Taurus' best selling firearm. Unless we're going to smugly dismiss everyone who buys one as a "sucker" or an "ignoramus", it might be more instructive to see what self-defense scenarios the purchasers anticipate and how they think the Judge meets that need.

Kleanbore · Jul 20, 2017

knot4reel said:
IE something thought to be better came along.

Semiautomatic pistols.

knot4reel said:
Why did the FBI jump on the .40 bandwagon?

Law enforcement needs, such as the ability to penetrate plate glass, with the ammunition available at the time.

knot4reel said:
Why are they now jumping on the 9mm bandwagon?

Improvements in ammunition technology.

knot4reel said:
I don't need to justify my choice to anyone except myself.

That's right.

knot4reel said:
But feel free to keep trying.

We're just trying to help you educate yourself.

knot4reel said:
Did you watch the video in the link I posted #80 if so what did you think about it.

Yes. Not much.

knot4reel said:
What's your opinion about his opinion and more importantly WHY

He says it "can be" effective and that he would only use it in the home--a "night-stand gun".

If someone were to break in when I happened to be within arms reach of a "night stand gun", one that "can be" effective would be a lot better than nothing.

But that's a big " if". I don't want to be unable to access a home defense gun in less than a couple of seconds, wherever I may be in the house, and I do not want to leave one where someones else could access it.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

hdwhit said:
I don't think that was helpful or even particularly relevant. The same could be said of everyone who bought an over-priced AR during the pre-election panic.

The various incarnations of the Judge are Taurus' best selling firearm. Unless we're going to smugly dismiss everyone who buys one as a "sucker" or an "ignoramus", it might be more instructive to see what self-defense scenarios the purchasers anticipate and how they think the Judge meets that need.

Well said. You're a lot better at putting thoughts together than I am.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Kleanbore said:
Semiautomatic pistols.

Law enforcement needs, such as the ability to penetrate plate glass, with the ammunition available at the time.

Improvements in ammunition technology.

That's right.

We're just trying to help you educate yourself.

Yes. Not much.

He says it "can be" effective and that he would only use it in the home--a "night-stand gun".

If someone were to break in when I happened to be within arms reach of a "night stand gun", one that "can be" effective would be a lot better than nothing.

But that's a big " if". I don't want to be unable to access a home defense gun in less than a couple of seconds, wherever I may be in the house, and I do not want to leave one where someones else could access it.

My eyes are burning from the smoke.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Watch this thread get closed shortly.

Theohazard · Jul 20, 2017

fpgt72 said:
Theohazard said:

Presumably, mods become mods because they exhibit -- among other things -- a higher-than-average knowledge of firearms combined with the skills to convey this knowledge on a forum setting like THR. And Sam1911 and Kleenbore are doing a good job explaining the downsides to using a .410 revolver as a SD weapon.

Click to expand...

Mods become mods because they are level headed and have the time and ability to keep things on track.

That too, of course; that's the primary job of the mods here. But like Sam1911 pointed out, they're not acting in their moderator capacity in this thread, they're simply discussing firearms, a subject that the mods here tend to know a lot about.

hdwhit · Jul 20, 2017

Sam1911 wrote:
Imagine if Kia suddenly came out with a car that could lift off the ground and float for a few seconds.

Such a car, regardless of who made it would embody technologies that do not currently exist in a commercial automobile; that's more than building a conventional pistol chambered for a shotgun cartridge.

It would be their hottest seller...

Would it? How do you know? What leads you to conclude such a vehicle would so resonate with the public - regardless of how much money was used to promote it - that it would become their best selling car? You are merely positing an assumption as a fact.

...but it wouldn't actually be a better commuter car

Again, is that true? If that ability to float allowed the car to float over the worst potholes so that the occupants weren't bounced around, the suspension wasn't damaged, the wheel alignment was not disturbed and the bodywork didn't develop rattles, it might be seen as a better commuter car. You have merely stated your opinion as a fact.

...and folks would mostly buy them to goof off with.

Again, what basis do you have for assuming that people would expend the kind of money it take to buy a car simply to "goof off" with it rather than drive it to/from work, grocery store, soccer games and the like? Again, you are positing an assumption as a fact.

You assume the people who buy the Judge (and, by the way, I DON'T own one) as victims of marketing or followers of a fad, yet you offer no insight into what threats they perceive or how they believe the Judge will address it. Instead, you create a straw man and knock it down. Bravo.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Theohazard said:
a subject that the mods here tend to know a lot about.

Are they the formost and final authority on everything gun related. And if it comes from the mouth of a "MOD" is it to be etched in stone. Boy. they have been waiting for this one. BYE everybody.

RPRNY · Jul 20, 2017

hdwhit said:
I don't think that was helpful or even particularly relevant. The same could be said of everyone who bought an over-priced AR during the pre-election panic.

The various incarnations of the Judge are Taurus' best selling firearm. Unless we're going to smugly dismiss everyone who buys one as a "sucker" or an "ignoramus", it might be more instructive to see what self-defense scenarios the purchasers anticipate and how they think the Judge meets that need.

Yet there is no scenario under US gun laws in which a rifled revolver shooting shot would be a better choice for self-defense scenarios than other readily available firearms. You disagree. Thus, the relevant Wikipedia citation provided to explain the effective marketing of a firearm that lacks a rational justification in a self-defense scenario.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

RPRNY said:
Yet there is no scenario under US gun laws in which a rifled revolver shooting shot would be a better choice for self-defense scenarios than other readily available firearms

Who is saying the Judge is a better choice.

Kleanbore · Jul 20, 2017

hdwhit said:
The various incarnations of the Judge are Taurus' best selling firearm.

Taurus' total handgun sales volume is minuscule compared to that of the big players, but yes, there are people buying the things. Clearly, Taurus' marketing strategy, which is not targeted at people who are very knowledgeable of the subject, has a lot to do with those sales.

hdwhit said:
Unless we're going to smugly dismiss everyone who buys one as a "sucker" or an "ignoramus",...

That would not be helpful.

hdwhit said:
...it might be more instructive to see what self-defense scenarios the purchasers anticipate and how they think the Judge meets that need.

Yes indeed!

And at that point, people who know something about the subject would be able to evaluate the realism of those assumptions.

Clearly, the guy who made the video in Post #80 envisions the use of the Judge as a "nightstand gun", to be fired within the home. His reasons for that limitation imply that he would not be worried about the contingency of a loved one being in the proximity of the attacker.

Over the course of fifty-three years, I have had to access firearms for defensive purposes within the home three times. All incidents did occur at night, with cars parked in the driveways. In two of them, I did happen to be in the bedroom. In the other, I was able to access the gun from elsewhere, but I would not be able to do that today.

On another occasion, I has to grab a gun when my wife was confined to a chair after surgery. I would not have been able to get to a gun on the "night-stand". The "intruder", very fortunately, turned out to be as strong wind blowing open a door.

The realities of our house layout and of the fact that more and more of the break-ins around here have not been occurring at night make reliance on a "night stand gun" less prudent than what many people may imagine.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Kleanbore said:
there are people buying the things

Interesting choice of words here.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

My Judge is available and handy 24/7 if I am at home. And please don't bother dragging out the children in the house issue. I.m a responsible gun owner. I think my intelligence has been questioned enough on here.

Sam1911 · Jul 20, 2017

Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.

Dale Carnegie

Indeed. And I'm really not trying to convince knot4reel anything about his Judge. But he took the time to jump into this discussion to laud the Judge as a good choice for self defense. And now says he doesn't have to tell anyone why.

certain posters want to keep asking why why why why, I don't need to justify my choice to anyone except myself.

Certainly, if you want to keep the Judge on your nightstand for self defense you don't have to justify that to anybody.

On the other hand, if you want to enter a public discussion of the merits of that gun for that use and post over twenty times to proclaim how much you like it and that it is indeed a good choice, it is incredibly silly, and a great waste of everyone's time if you refuse to say WHY it is a good choice.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Do I CC or OC my Judge, oc in my yard at times
Come into my home intending to do harm to me and mine------say hello to my little friend.

Sam1911 · Jul 20, 2017

Again, you are positing an assumption as a fact.

And you are taking a hypothetical and currently impracticable analogy and attempting to skewer it reductio ad absurdum. If you don't think it was a good analogy that's fine, but I'm not going to debate the market forces applying to an automobile that doesn't exist. My questions and observations stand firmly enough whether you agree with my view of the impossible car market or not.

You assume the people who buy the Judge (and, by the way, I DON'T own one) as victims of marketing or followers of a fad, yet you offer no insight into what threats they perceive or how they believe the Judge will address it. Instead, you create a straw man and knock it down. Bravo.

Actually, not so. People have bought the Judge for lots of reasons. Some may be possibly sub-optimal choices, but I've asked far more QUESTIONS than I've made condemning statements here.

I've observed that some bought it because they like to execute snakes and it is clearly pretty good at that.

I've observed that many others bought it because it's a novelty, it's fun, it's different, it's entertaining.

And I've observed that some, like knot4reel, bought it (or at least use it) because of it's possible self-defense value. I've asked him repeatedly how he analyzes the factors that make it a good choice for that, but he says he doesn't have to tell us. Seeing as the thread was asking WHY these are or aren't good for self-defense (and why trainers and such don't write articles advocating them for that purpose), I thought respondents who think it's a good idea would make strong cases explaining those decisions.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Sam1911 said:
and a great waste of everyone's time if you refuse to say WHY it is a good choice.

Pretty sure I,ve made it clear why I use the Judge for home Defense. Ammo used in said weapon( Fed handgun 000 Buckshot) not useless birdshot, and the performance of said ammo in said weapon. Also I"m sorry that you consider my opinion a waste of everyones time yet yours being very valuable. Whats next, the grammar police?

Sam1911 · Jul 20, 2017

Who is saying the Judge is a better choice.

It's hard to find the right way to say this without seeming to insult you, but I'll try...

If YOU are saying you choose to keep it on your night stand and now saying that you OC or CC it on your property, then one of two things must be true:
1) YOU think it's a better choice for saving your life than other guns you own would be.

or (and I'm going to get accused of insulting you, I'm sure...)

2) You are admitting that you repeatedly make a known poor choice.

Sam1911 · Jul 20, 2017

Pretty sure I,ve made it clear why I use the Judge for home Defense. Ammo used in said weapon( Fed handgun 000 Buckshot) not useless birdshot, and the performance of said ammo in said weapon.

Ok! So the performance of that ammo, out of that gun gives you more confidence of threat-stopping performance than other cartridges and the firearms they shoot?

Great. Why is that? Assuming accuracy of shot placement (within a few yards range at least) is as good with the Judge as you're able to shoot with your other handguns (though you never did say whether that's true), why do you feel that the No.4 buck pellets are likely to do the job better than a JHP or SWC 125gr - 230gr. slug from a more common style of weapon?

How do you assess the value of having more than 5 shots in the gun, or do you simply discount any value for that?

Also I"m sorry that you consider my opinion a waste of everyones time yet yours being very valuable. Whats next, the grammar police?

Your OPINION isn't a waste of everyone's time. Dancing around between allusions to performance (with no clear explanation) and telling us you don't have to answer questions about your choices is a waste of time. I've actually asked you to contribute your own observations and reasoning about a dozen times now. If I thought hearing your explanations would be a waste of time, I wouldn't have done that.

Wisco · Jul 20, 2017

knot4reel said:
Okay I read it again, now you watch this. I'm sure you've seen it but watch it again. /www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMDd4eAQO0&t=69s

The guy in the video says early on that the judge is not great, it's mediocre.

Why choose a mediocre defensive weapon when you have stated you own non mediocre weapons?

I know why, it's because it's "neat" and people believe the marketing. After all that's why a lot of people do things - I don't own a Jeep Wrangler because it's the best vehicle for everything, I own it because I need a small truck/SUV and it's cool.

knot4reel said:
Who is saying the Judge is a better choice.

You are! You use it even though you have more effective weapons.

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Sam1911 said:
It's hard to find the right way to say this without seeming to insult you, but I'll try...

If YOU are saying you choose to keep it on your night stand and now saying that you OC or CC it on your property, then one of two things must be true:
1) YOU think it's a better choice for saving your life than other guns you own would be.

or (and I'm going to get accused of insulting you, I'm sure...)

2) You are admitting that you repeatedly make a known poor choice.

OMG. Now your a mind reader assuming that I fall into either of those choices you listed. Quite the stretch. How bout this 3. It's the weapon I practice shooting on a regular basis using my defense ammo of choice, I'm comfortable with the recoil and can get back on target fast enough for my purpose. Yep believe it or not it has more than one use for me. I love shooting targets and practicing with it. It's far from being my only gun I can pick up, but I enjoy shooting it as much as anything I,ve shot in my 67yrs. Now convince me why I shouldn't like it..
And who qualifies it as a known poor choice?

Kleanbore · Jul 20, 2017

knot4reel said:
My Judge is available and handy 24/7 if I am at home.

What do you consider "handy"?

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Wisco said:
You are! You use it even though you have more effective weapons.

Really. How do you know what I have in my collection?

knot4reel · Jul 20, 2017

Kleanbore said:
What do you consider "handy"?

I Thought
handy was a pretty common word used by many. Nittpick much?
Available, within reach for my use.

Sam1911 · Jul 20, 2017

It's the weapon I practice shooting on a regular basis using my defense ammo of choice, I'm comfortable with the recoil and can get back on target fast enough for my purpose.

Ok, that is helpful.

Yep believe it or not it has more than one use for me. I love shooting targets and practicing with it. It's far from being my only gun I can pick up, but I enjoy shooting it as much as anything I,ve shot in my 67yrs.

Ok! So, it's a gun you find fun to play with, and it has the added bonus of ammo available that seems potentially lethal enough that you make it your self defense choice as well.

That's a pretty reasonable answer to why you use it for defense, giving a clear picture of how you come to the decision. Thank you. Whether others would find your reasons convincing is entirely up to them, but at least now they know the length and depth of your own analysis.

Now convince me why I shouldn't like it..

Why would I? I don't care whether you LIKE it. In fact, I'm glad you do! I wouldn't want you to be stuck with a gun you don't enjoy.

I could make strong arguments as to why I wouldn't make the same choice for self-defense purposes, but I assume you can figure those out for yourself, trust that you have already at least thought about them and decided they don't matter to you, and gather from the tone of this whole conversation (starting with your "get ready to rumble" opening) that you really aren't interested in being convinced of anything.

And who qualifies it as a known poor choice?

In that quote you would have, or at least you implied so when you said "who's saying the Judge is a better choice?"

Of course lots of other people strongly believe it is a poor choice, but we were not talking about them, but about the two oddly conflicting statements you had made.

About Home Defense gun selection - why no shotshell revolvers

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Moderator Emeritus

Member

Moderator Emeritus

Member

Moderator Emeritus

Moderator Emeritus

member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Moderator Emeritus

Similar threads