Gun Laws in Scandinavia
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Speedo66
Member
At one point they controlled practically all land surrounding the Baltic, including what is now Russia.
More important than differences in law with Switzerland is their cultural attitude towards firearms. Laws are actually easier to change than culture and attitude IMO. Yeah Estonia is another one. In fact many of the former East Bloc countries have a healthier attitude than most of current socialist western Europe.
RPRNY
Member
Speedo, a little Wikipedia does not a Nordic scholar make you. Your grasp of the subject is sophomoric. I suggest that you stop trying to debate someone about Finnish history on a firearms forum, especially when you don't have the subject matter knowledge to do so.
RoscoeBryant
Member
Funny thing is, how different that attitude is formed with countries sharing similar experiences. Czech Republic, Estonia, Serbia, partly Croatia etc. for example formed a pretty strong gun culture and a lot healthier attitude towards guns as a means of defending themselves due to their experiences in the 20th century. Poland on the other hand - being oppressed by different monarchys and later nazism and socialism for most of the last 250 years - did not develop such a strong gun culture after it freed itself from its oppression and still has some of th emost strict gun laws across europe.
And to get back on topic: for the scandinavian countries, gun culture is rooted in an understanding of guns as tools for hunting mainly (although Finland for example also has a strong militia-aspect), therefore general attitude and laws are formed in a completely different way.
Speedo66
Member
Yes, especially since it was initially brought up by you. Just trying to bring it down to a level you could finally comprehend. Numerous cites and still denial. I guess if you can't win it's time to call off the game.
Have a nice day. Back to our regular programming.
RPRNY
Member
It's not a competition.
Snejdarek
Member
I am sorry but please provide reliable sources in that regard or I have to call bu--sh-t on this.
This sort of news stories have been circulated by Western European media (especially BBC and other British media) about the Czech Republic for two decades now. We do have shall issue concealed carry and we do have decriminalized small amount drugs possession (not only marijuana, but all others too) and when they have nothing better to do, Western European journalists come up with made up stories about it being easy to get a Kalashnikov and a kilo of meth on the streets of Prague - simply because they don't understand that clear and widely accepted rules on legality make a very strong line between the legal and illegal worlds with no need for law abiding citizens to cross that border (which lowers the demand on black market which in turn.. you know the basic economics, right?). It got to the point that the well known Norwegian terrorists traveled to Prague believing this nonsence and spent a week here trying to buy illegal guns. He did his best but failed.
Other lovely thing that is being revived every couple of years by British media is about child purchasing from gypsies in the Czech Republic. It is always the same story - they come here with hidden camera, make story about striking a deal with local gypsies about buying a little child from them... and then just stop before the exchange is supposed to take place because "they don't want to break the law". Yeah, sure. I would really want them to come to the meeting with the negotiated sum in cash and see what happens them. Good luck.
Anyways, that being said, I am inclined to believe that Athens are more similar to Prague in reality than they are in BBC news reporting in this regard.
Snejdarek
Member
This got me interested.
That is interesting to read as I come from the country that coined the term "pistol", the country in where the use of firearms as a battlefield weapons (as opposed to previous use only as a siege weapon) developed, and the country where the oldest still open shooting range dates back to 1617 and the oldest shooting society/club is over 500 years old. Please do tell me more about Norway, I am sure I would not be the only Czech interested in hearing about Norway having the strongest tradition of gun ownership in Europe.
Ahem, ever heard of EFTA and Schengen Agreement? Norway is bound by most EU rules including the EU Firearms Directive, they just don't get to sit at the table when the rules are being made.
RPRNY
Member
Having ignored my comments about Czechia, your smartassery isn't going to get you any points. I don't believe the Czechs invented snarky but you sure have mastered it. And your generalizations about Norwegian gun laws conforming to the EU are wrong. Ever heard about facts? Apparently not.
Snejdarek
Member
Switzerland, as well as Norway, must too abide by the European Firearms Directive, including its newest amendment known as the "EU Gun Ban". This will most likely actually become an issue of a referendum in Switzerland, with the underlying main topic being to either adhere to the EU Gun Ban, or lose access to the Schengen borderless area (and possibly also EU Single Market) with extremely negative impact on Swiss economy.
While true I need to point out that the connection between hunting and gun culture in the Czech Republic (sorry, hate "Czechia", but that is my personal issue) is overplayed by anti-gun British and US press. In reality, there the number of concealed carry licenses in the Czech Republic is almost three times higher than the number of hunting licenses.
Slovakia has had almost Czech tier gun laws but has seen them being cut down slice by slice even before the EU Gun Ban. May issue concealed carry instead of shall issue and "assault rifle" ban being prime examples, followed by obligatory psychological testing for gun license applicants as well as police asking for "reference" by random neighbors etc. Thank you but no thank you.
Hungary's gun laws are German tier with actual gun ownership being extremely low.
Polish gun ownership rate today is actually three times lower than Czechoslovak gun ownership rate during COMMUNISM. They seem to be headed in the right direction as regards some existing proposals for gun laws changes, but that can't change the fact that their gun culture is non-existent.
Austria is interesting country - very strong gun culture which completely fails to translate when it comes to official government firearms policies.
Snejdarek
Member
While I agree in general, question is what attitude it exactly is. What I personally find most troubling about most people of Germany or France is not attitude to firearms as such, but more to the general issue of protection and self defense. They suffer from extremely deeply felt feeling that it is government's and government's only job to protect them and thus they should not need nor have means for effective self defense, be it a brick or a gun. Because "only properly trained law enforcement officers can ensure proper law enforcement, having civilians do that would be terrible".
Yes, the Swiss have extremely positive attitude to firearms - and as a society in general much more positive than Czechs (Swiss as a whole are pro-gun, while Czechs as a whole are gun neutral, but are extremely pro-liberties which extends into felt pro-gun). On the other hand when it comes to personal protection and self-defense, Swiss are much closer to the French or Germans than to Czechs (who in general distrust government, be it with road potholes or personal protection).
In Switzerland gun ownership is intertwinned with the militia system and with protection of country. It is a collective right, much less an individual right.
At least this is my personal experience, having family in Switzerland and having spent quite some time there. I will be happy to hear some Swiss point of view on that issue here.
Snejdarek
Member
Apart from strong pre-communist gun culture in the Czech Republic which Poland may have lacked, I believe that one of the main reasons for the different development after the fall of communism in the two countries rests with vastly different national character.
Poles are by large collectivist people. They congregate in churches and are strong Catholics. They do believe in their leaders and have much higher trust in government.
Czechs are individualists. 90% atheist with deep distrust of government that is rooted in 300 years of Habsburg Austrian Catholic Occupation, with the 20th century Nazi and Communist dictatorships being icing on the cake.
Snejdarek
Member
Well, here are some facts for you:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-4465_en.htm
Norwegian gun laws are actually stricter than German.
German tier would be considered absolute nightmare in the Czech Republic.
AlexanderA
Member
Sure.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...rrest-26-people-in-menidi-for-various-crimes/
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2017/06/10/menidi-molotov-bombs-roma-stray-bullet-boy/
http://ainfos.ca/ainfos58438.html
http://logisticalworlds.org/blogs/newly-builts-aspropyrgos-zone
http://logisticalworlds.org/blogs/newly-builts-aspropyrgos-zone
Greece is nothing like the Czech Republic in this regard. In Greece, there's a combination of an overactive legislature (which passes draconian laws of all kinds) and a population that totally distrusts government and obeys its edicts reluctantly, if at all. This is why tax evasion is endemic in Greece. Gun laws fall into exactly the same pattern. The laws on the books are quite strict, but many people ignore them with impunity (as long as they don't flaunt their guns too openly). Remember that there are thousands of underground guns left over from WWII and the Civil War that followed, and more recently from the fall of the Iron Curtain (particularly regarding Albania).
Snejdarek
Member
I am sorry but quick read through the links you posted reveals only random cases of illegal arming, not large scale illegal market.
Will drug & human traffickers, bank robbers and other similar criminals be typically armed? Yes, they will, anywhere in the world, including "gun free" UK.
Is that a proof of large scale black market and large scale societal illegal arming? No it isn't.
I am not saying that this is not the case for Greece, but I am not convinced. There is a long road from jay walking and tax evasion to illegal AK47 being the norm in average family house.
RPRNY
Member
Wrong
AlexanderA
Member
Those links were just the result of a hasty Google search. Believe me, I read the Greek newspapers and watch Greek television every day, and stories of gun-running, drug-dealing, and general crime are commonplace. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Even the police themselves estimate that there are 250,000 illegal Kalashnikovs floating around in Greece. These are too many to be accounted for strictly by the criminal element. I've walked into people's homes in rural Greece (particularly in Crete), and have seen WWII MP40's hanging on their walls. And these are not deactivated relics. Clearly, the police are not making a concentrated effort to round these up. There are no-go zones, even in the center of Athens (the Exarchia neighborhood, for example), where the police will not go in less than battalion-sized sweeps. And by the time they mount such large operations, the anarchist and criminal elements are long gone. The police are unable to keep a sustained presence there. After all, the country is bankrupt.
I think the German attitudes, and many European countries, are rapidly changing due to what is happening there on the streets, and in many cases their homes.
Although the Swiss right might be collective in law, I think any attempt to reduce the general availability of arms to citizens would be met with strong resistance. They are not blind to what is happening in the countries around them either.
The "large scale illegal market" is pretty universal. I lived in the UK during the 1970s and later in the late 1980s/90s. Germany in the 80s. Had licences in both places. But there is not much anyone can not get with just the will and some money. And this is the crux of the fallacy of "gun control", licensing etc. It does not work. The whole world is awash with firearms of all types.
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Snejdarek
Member
I am sorry, I have a quite a few friends from Germany and that is not the attitude they would gain through what is happening there. That is evident also through the high popular support that Angela Merkel is enjoying despite the immense worsening of security. Most of Germany very much approve of acts like these:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...EU-official-s-daughter-met-work-refugees.html
A friend of mine is a member of sport shooting club and also self-defense instructor (this being Germany, of course unarmed self-defense). When self-defense with firearm is flouted in the club, everyone is eager to come forward saying they would never ever use their guns for example for protection during home invasion. He would differ but he needs the club's endorsement for every semi-auto he wants to buy (which is increasingly difficult with the rising number of guns) and he reasonably believes he would not receive one should he publicly acknowledge he would be ready to use the firearm to protect self and his family.
Perhaps @Kabal could also weigh in on the issue.
This is what I was pointing at with the Swiss. They do love their guns but when it comes to guns & self-defense, their mentality is much closer to that of Germans than to Czechs or Americans. The few Swiss I know personally think I am a crazy guy because I concealed carry frequently. "There is police for that"
Snejdarek
Member
Yes, with right amount of effort and money everything is possible.
But can average Joe - with no connections to criminal world, when he decides to get illegal firearm on Friday afternoon, get one by Monday morning? I very much doubt that about today's London and it would be next to impossible in Prague. We know that it was and probably is quite easy in Brussels (due to the way criminals and terrorists obtained their firearms there in a way similar to buying a stole bicycle). It may or may not be this easy in Athens, but I very much doubt the information about "just walking into gypsy neighborhood and buying AK47 with next to no effort", also because I very well know British bull-hit news reporting about "just walking in to Czech gypsy neighborhood and buying a child."
Even as a teen in the UK I was made aware of a local hardware store owner who sold firearms black market, and confirmed it with a visit to his store just out of curiosity. I did not partake
. About twenty or so years later that guy went to prison for the murder of his wife.Following the news there for several decades, incidents and arrests with firearms of all types have been quite common
And this was, in the 1970s a small seaside town, and a popular "working class" holiday destination. Even now it is still very much like it was with moderate expansion.
As regards the BBC; they always have been an anti gun propaganda machine. They ran sophisicated emotionally charged presentations after the Hungerford shooting in 1987 and after the later incident in Dunblain that rivalled the skills of Saatchi & Saatchi.
The only reason they are making reports such as the one cited in other EU countries is to bolster public opinion against those countries that are bucking the EU "gun control" agenda.
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AlexanderA
Member
It's true that an outsider, such as a tourist, would have great difficulty obtaining a gun (other than a sporting shotgun) in Athens. But anyone who has lived there a few years, and developed local connections, could get just about anything he wanted. Remember that Greece was a crossroads of conflict, and outside powers -- Italians, Germans, British, Americans, Soviets -- pumped the country full of guns. These hundreds of thousands of guns, of all types, didn't magically disappear. They just faded into the woodwork.
I once walked into the back room of a junk shop in Monastiraki (the flea market neighborhood of Athens) and saw a big pile of MP40's, each of which had been "demilitarized" in minimal, but differing, ways. These were for sale extremely cheaply. You could buy a few and assemble working guns using the parts. But people now don't bother with such things, since AK47's are so plentiful.
There's a thriving gun underground in Greece. I'm convinced that some members of the police are complicit in this, judging from the news stories that surface periodically. Greece is probably the most corrupt country in Europe. Don't pay attention to the "Potemkin village" image of the country that's projected for the benefit of tourists.
I am not sorry. I have a friend who still lives there. He can not comment in email because it is a crime to refer to certain things as a "problem" in Germany. And of course many Germans will not talk about firearms for defense. But are they talking privately? They sure are.
Merkel is not popular. The media might try and say she is, but outside of the showcase support for the cameras, she is not.
I also have other sources, many of them simply YouTube videos by people on the streets there. Attitudes towards firearms as a means of self defense are changing.
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