Unfinished Wood on miltary stocks?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Denny Gibson

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2017
Messages
168
Location
Chillicothe Illinois
I just purchased a really nice M1 Garand by Winchester made in May 1943. The gun is truly "like new" ... The stock seems completely unfinished, no oil or any other finish is visible on the wood and the surface is extremely porous. Here's my question: Were these guns issued to military personnel with totaly unfinished stocks? Was the soldier supposed to apply linseed (or some other) oil themselves or were they carried into combat unfinished?

I want very mush to clean the stock up and apply a good stock oil finish ... will that destroy the collector value of the gun?
 
I just purchased a really nice M1 Garand by Winchester made in May 1943. The gun is truly "like new" ... The stock seems completely unfinished, no oil or any other finish is visible on the wood and the surface is extremely porous. Here's my question: Were these guns issued to military personnel with totaly unfinished stocks? Was the soldier supposed to apply linseed (or some other) oil themselves or were they carried into combat unfinished?

I want very mush to clean the stock up and apply a good stock oil finish ... will that destroy the collector value of the gun?

I find it very unlikely that stock was issued with that gun. If there arnt some markings on it its most likely been added after the gun went on the civi market, could also mean the rifles been refinished, and the person who started on it never got around to making it complete.
WIth it being quite rough, id guess that its a recent replacement.

again tho im not horribly knowledgeable on old military rifles, so hopefully someone with more info will come along.
 
Issue rifles were dipped in Boiled Linseed Oil(BLO) or finished with Pure Tung Oil(not Tung Oil Finish. Isn't the same thing.) depending on when they were made and to an certain extent the type of wood in the factory. Birch or walnut. Birch tends to be lighter in colour and has very little grain. Some birch stock are completely blond too. The troopies got some BLO to keep it pretty if it started out with BLO.
An unfinished stock would suck moisture like there's no tomorrow and cause the zero to change. And change again when it dried out.
Suspect LoonWulf is right saying that stock is a replacement(CMP has done a lot of that). Especially if it's "like new". (Parkerising is black(Manganese base solution) or shades of grey(Zinc based solution) depending on the steel it's on. M1's were usually black though.). As such it's a shooter(IMR4064 gives more consistent accuracy than IMR4895), not a collector's piece. So finishing the stock will not affect its value.
BLO just gets put on with a clean cloth and let sit to dry. It gives a flat finish. It also requires periodic re-applying. When the stock looks dry, put on some more. Mind you, there's a saying that went, "Every day for a week, then every week for a month". Suspect that was more about 'busy work' for the troopies though.
Pure Tung Oil is a far more durable finish, but it takes several days to do right. It gets applied in several thin coats over several days(5 is good)with clean lint free cloths and 24 hours between coats. New cloth every day. It gives a sheen to walnut that brings out the grain really nicely. The more coats you put on, they shinier it gets. Never gets to polyurethane shiney though.
If you wish to stain it, any stain must go on before the first coat of Tung Oil. Tung Oil soaks into the wood to about 1/4" and keeps everything else out. Do the inside of the stock too. Birch tends to end up a nice honey blond colour. Did my birch stocked(I think)Plainfield Carbine over 30 years ago and it's still honey coloured.
 
Thanks for the responses, folks! The barrel and receiver are black (very dark grey) and the stock has a circled "P" under the grip and an insignia that looks like a circle with two cannons crossed behind it (hard to see in detail) on the left side under the receiver. Does that tell us anything?
 
Last edited:
Need Pics. If your M-1 really IS a near new Winchester, and all original, it is worth several thousand dollars. The two chances of that being the case are slim and none. Does the stock have a cartouche? It should have the letters WRA over GHD, in a square box. To the right of that should be the crossed cannons cartouche. If these are absent, the stock is a replacement. The rear hand guard should NOT have a clearance cut to prevent the op-rod from banging into it. Winchester didn't bother with this, they just let the op-rod beat it's own clearance cut into the wood. The butt plate should have a clearly defined boarder around the checkering. If the checkering just kind of melts away around the edges it is not a Winchester plate.

The gas cylinder's rear support ring must be rounded, like in the pic. All others had a flat milled into the ring. This rule is set in stone, if that ring isn't round on top, it ain't a Winchester. The front sight wings should be flared widely like the pic. Their may be a small punch mark on the right side of the sight, but this rule is NOT set in stone. Some Springfields had a punch mark as well, and some Winchesters didn't.

Has the op-rod been cut, like the one in the pic has? That mod was done during an arsenal recall for that express purpose and the guns were overhauled at the same time. Which means that the gun is no longer "new" or original. Are all of the parts the same color? If they are, the gun has been re-finished. Winchester blued some small parts to save time. The extractor is one example.

These are just a few things to look for in a "NEW" Winchester Garand. As I have stated, an original, as-issued WWII Garand in any condition is a rare bird. One that is near new is almost unheard of, although I know a collector who has one that was never issued. I offered him $5,000 for it a few years back. Using non-verbal communication (hand signal) he told me I was #1.

Garand collecting is every bit as big of a snake's nest as Lugers and Colt hoglegs. If your gun has passed these tests, and I'm guessing it has not, it is definitely time to seek out an expert's appraisal.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3945[1].JPG
    IMG_3945[1].JPG
    121.6 KB · Views: 37
  • IMG_3944[1].JPG
    IMG_3944[1].JPG
    123.7 KB · Views: 37
  • IMG_3943[1].JPG
    IMG_3943[1].JPG
    114.9 KB · Views: 38
  • IMG_3942[1].JPG
    IMG_3942[1].JPG
    87.1 KB · Views: 37
  • IMG_3941[1].JPG
    IMG_3941[1].JPG
    123.5 KB · Views: 38
And to answer the question posed in your OP, yes, it will destroy any collector value if the gun is original. If not.....go for it. But you should know that if the stock has the proper markings, and just happened to miss the oil bath, it is worth several hundred dollars by itself, depending in condition.
 
Last edited:
Interesting ... I haven't disassembled the rifle so I can't see all of the things you mentioned ... but everything is on the stock except the square box and the butt plate is identical ... the receiver has WInchester engraved on it in small letters ... the front sight looks just like the picture and so does the area around the front ring that holds the hand guard in place. I guess I better take a look at the gas cylinder rear support ring and op-rod.
 
Upload didn't work the first time ... but here they are. Again, I haven't disassembled the rifle to look at gas piston support, etc yet.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0340.JPG
    IMG_0340.JPG
    106.6 KB · Views: 55
  • IMG_0341.JPG
    IMG_0341.JPG
    106 KB · Views: 51
  • IMG_0342.JPG
    IMG_0342.JPG
    74.7 KB · Views: 51
  • IMG_0343.JPG
    IMG_0343.JPG
    91.8 KB · Views: 50
  • IMG_0344.JPG
    IMG_0344.JPG
    110.2 KB · Views: 52
Bud's of mine worked down at CMP, collected fully correct rifles, or mostly correct rifles, and sold the parts. They made much more selling parts than the value of the rifle. I did some horse trading, getting correct parts for my late model M1's.

All correct and new Winchesters did get out the door very early on in the CMP days. One work day at CMP, went I put in some free time, one worker down there told me he made sure the orders that went to Alabamians got very valuable rifles. That was still in the one rifle per lifetime era, and I had already got mine before then!. Guys would come out to the range with these excellent condition, like new, HRA's, IHC's, Win 13's, that they had just received. A good friend of mine got a 1941 gas trap conversion, all correct.

That was a long time ago and that period was short and ended as the CMP decided to make as much money from their rifles as possible. Typically what is floating around now are restorations. Guys buy parts and restore the rifle as best as they can. There are always arguments between collectors as what constitutes correct parts. As I recall, during the 1950's Springfield Armory supplied parts to HRA and IHC and rifles with SA barrels by these vendors came out in sufficient quantity to prove they were not rebuilds, stuff like that. There is always an argument about the internal, unmarked parts, as who made them.

Stock stamps have been remade and there are guys who stamp stocks with WW2 SA, Winchester, HRA, IHC stock cartouches.
 
I'm by no means a Winchester expert but the stock appears to birch, Rear sight and trigger guard are post WWII. Rifle is not "original".
 
No ... the stock is pure, unfinished walnut (that was the point of the thread ... can I finish it without destroying it's value?) ... (I am, among other things, also a woodworker and know the difference between birch and walnut.) The serial number is right and so are all the details (except the rear sight and trigger guard?) ... all of the stock stampings are there except for the square around WRA and GHD ... the question is what, if anything, that means? Maybe a replacement stock (but why the cartouches?)?

Folks, I'm not arguing that the gun is anything special ... just want to be sure before I start carting it back and forth to the range. I'm not a collector so if it turns out the gun is valuable I won't keep it (I can't afford a bunch of gun safe queens that never see the light of day ... if I can't shoot it I don't want it).

Could someone post pictures of an original rear sight and trigger guard? I'd like to check out MutinousDoug's cooments.

I want to treat the stock with a good quality stock oil and intend to shoot it unless it turns out it has real collector value ... maybe I should contact an appraiser just to be sure?
 
Last edited:
You have a very nice looking shooter. The rear sight is a post world war two arsenal rebuild and the trigger guard is also a post WW II unit. Winchester never made guns with stamped trigger guards. I would definitely re-finish that stock !
So that begs the question: how could you ever know if an M1 Garand is genuinely original?
Simple. Send it to Scott Duff. :D Failing in that, it just involves a lot of knowledge on what to look for.
 
Well ... that's two people with the same observation ... that's good enough for me ... so we have confirmation ... I can refinish it! Thanks folks! I have yet to come here with a question and not leave with an answer ... hats off to all of the knowledgeable and helpful folks here!
 
Buttplate is not WRA , stock has been faked if it is stamped. Appears to be a birch stock ,possibly commercial
 
Buttplate is not WRA
Assuming that it is a WW II plate, it most assuredly IS a Winchester. It is possible, not probable, that it an IHC plate. Some of them have been found with distinct boarders. The OP says the stock is walnut, I'll take his word. But who really cares anyway, birch stocks were used, just not by Winchester. A faked stock would have a fake cartouche as well.

Birch stocks were perfectly good stocks. Looking forward to seeing the finished product!
 
Although a better close up picture would help it does not look like a WRA.
Has no charateristics of a WRA buttplate
 
Uhhhh.....exactly WHAT do you think a Winchester butt plate looks like? Let me help you......it looks exactly like the pic on the OPs rifle, and exactly like the pic of the plate on my rifle. Raised checkering, distinct boarder. I don't know where you get your info from, I get mine from Scott Duff, who knows a little bit about the breed. Google his book "M-1 Garand WW II" and look at the pictures.
 
Looking at the stock closely ... the color is distinctively walnut but looking closely at the grain I'm beginning to wonder ... it has remarkably little figure ... maybe it IS birch ... no matter: I'm going to take the stock off and refinish it ... the worrisome parts are where, due to the unfinished condition (at least no protective finish) skin oils have caused dark spots that may not come out even with aggressive sanding. Maybe they'll add character. Anyway, I ordered a Boyd's replacement walnut stock which I'll use to shoot this beauty until I finish the stock that came with the rifle.

On another note ... is anyone aware of a way to get the skin oil stains out of a wood stock?
 
Last edited:
Guess you dont have a WRA buttplate on your rfile either then, let me help you
There are several identifying factors you need to look at besides what you mentioned. The most obvious is the offset bottom screw and the checkering comes to a point under the trap door and bottom screw hole is offsett
Some WRA buttplates will be stamped S2 on the back by screw hole

f78d5c84-50f9-46d2-bf75-c3e120feaf9d_zpsszway1ls.jpg
 
Interesting points, Orlando. I may be learning something here! My plate seems to have a distinct boarder, but it does not have the S2 stamp. In the plate on your picture, it is not the hole that is offset, but the checkering itself. I suppose no one would care if the part fits. Now I'm not so sure my plate is a Winchester ! My gun is a restoration in progress. Looks like I may have one more part to find.:( I thought I was down to the windage and elevation knobs and the rear hand guard.

Oh, well. Thanks for the info. One never stops learning....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top