Rifle wont hold zero with factory ammo but reloads work?

No, it doesn't make sense. Bulk loads in a factory barrel should hold 4-6 MOA (1-1.5" at 25y) from a rest without too much difficulty.

I think it's likely there's something else going on. However I don't know from your story what that something might be. I would be very careful to only change one thing at a time - change ammo or optics or mount or shooter or shooting conditions, but not all of them at once. You should be able to narrow down where the problem is.

Different sort of rifle, same behavior.

My '06 is reliably sub-MOA with handloads. One time in WalMart I saw Winchester white box ammo for $5. Tried a box. Six-inch "pattern". Oh, well, lesson learned; at least I had some decent brass out of the deal.

What I dont understand is why now when I switch to reloads do I get the accuracy I am looking for!

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This problem sounds kind of simple. All of the details about different optics, new BCG etc. is irrelevant. Your Tango 6 optic is fine based on your results with handloads so clearly your rifle and the American Eagle ammunition don't play nice together. This is unfortunate if you've purchased a bunch of it to shoot in your SIG but all you can do is move along and either find another factory load such as XM193 and see if that shoots well, or stick with your handloads. If you have a production rifle that shoots factory ammunition well to exceptionally well you're lucky, but somehow this has become what many expect to be normal. I think most of this comes from lack of sufficient testing or simply cherry picking the one or two good groups out of many and assuming that the bad groups were shooter error.

"...this make any sense..." Yep. Your rifle doesn't like the AE ammo. And it's as simple as that. Your Varget loads are running slower than the factory ammo.
25.5 grains of Varget is the start load for a 55 grain bullet. You need to work up the load from the start load. Ignore the manual velocities though. They're usually not out of a 16" barrel
And 25 yards is too close. Test loads at 100.

Your Varget loads are running slower than the factory ammo.
25.5 grains of Varget is the start load for a 55 grain bullet.

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Yep. I stuff 25.0gr of Varget behind a 77gr bullet with excellent results.

TheDomFather said:

I am baffled by this continually thinking it was the scope or the mount or the rifle. What I dont understand is why now when I switch to reloads do I get the accuracy I am looking for!

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bcause your handloads are waaaaay better then the factory.

for instance my hornady manual says 2.250 for an OAL on the 223 v max bullet but factory is 2.230 so if your using a book OAL it might like that jump to the lands better. Factory v max shot about 1.5-2 inch 100yard groups which i thought was acceptable until i shot my handloads and now i shoot one hole wonders.

I can shoot factory Hornady FMJ ammo and have it print 6 inch groups but my handloads fmj also touch holes at 100yards. handloads are more consistent, tailored to the rifle, etc. your also using 2 seperate bullets. one is american eagle and one hornady. Hornady might put a little more love and care into their bullet then say federal. since i began reloading i havent shot a factory 223 round other then using up my old stash of v max and fmj to get a fouling shot or two.

American eagle fmjs have always been least accurate of all the cheap ammo for me. The AE 50grn hollow points tho have been some of the best cheap ammo.

Still thought I would not expect 6"@25 with any rifle ammo, that wasnt tumbling. Pretty much anything ive shot from a .223 would do that at 100yds.

As Bob said, Im guessing theres still a problem somewhere, but lacking experience with the platform I can only guess that. The gun may just REALLY dislike that ammo.

an fmj bullet will be the worst shooter. try 55gr v max, 50gr american eagle varmint tip, nosler, 55gr hornady soft point ammo.

I haven't seen many rifles that won't shoot Blackhills 69 gr MatchKing HP real nice. It's not real cheap but it sure is good stuff.

Only other thing I can think of is rate of twist and projectile weight, 6" at 25 yards is pretty ridiculous.

And 25 yards is too close. Test loads at 100.

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He is shooting 1" groups at 25 yards, that'd be 4" at 100 yards, IMHO pointless to move to 100 until shooting sub 0.5" groups at 25 yards which would be sub 2" groups at 100 yards. Groups never get proportionally smaller with distance.

The idea that ammo from Federal is responsible for 24MOA groups (6" @ 25y) does not sit right with me. I have never seen a factory rifle of modern manufacture in working condition with appropriate ammo shoot that badly.

TheDomFather said:

Ok for the record the AE I am shooting is 5.56 I have all the velocities clocked all were over 3000 fps. For my reloads they were .223 and clocking around 2600 fps. Here is what I am going to do to try to figure this out. I have 20 rounds of the AE ammo left. I just ordered a box each of Norma, Norma Match, Federal and Winchester match 20 rounds each of the expensive as all hell stuff (These prices are outrageous) just to see how they shoot accuracy wise as well as velocity. I made another batch of 50 rounds of Hornady FMJ 55gr sitting on 25 grains of varget and I am going to shoot and compare all of them. I have a batch of Hornady 62 gr HPBT that I got from mid south shooters supply as well (They seem to be the only one who carries them and the price is pretty good).

It pisses me off to have to spend top dollar on factory ammo but this will also be a good test to see the results of high end factory ammo vs. reloads in reused brass..

For the record (all purchases from midway USA)
Norma USA TAC-223 55gr FMJ $8.99 for 20 rounds
Federal Premium gold medal 223 Remington 69gr Sierra Match king $23.99 for 20 rounds
Norma USA MAtch 223 Rem 77 Grain Sierra Matchking HPBT $24.49 for 20 rounds
Winchester Match 223 Rem 69 gr Sierra Matchking HPBT $26.99 for 20 rounds

Lets see if $$ buys me anything and what performance is for handloads that are probably costing me .20 cents per round to make myself.

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I envy you guys the ability to order ammo, any of those would be 35-45 bucks a box out here.

I would work the gun over with your reloads before shooting the factory ammo. See if you have an wierd groups, or other oddness. THEN shoot some of the factory stuff. I would also load rounds closer to factory velocity, to get a better comparison.

Is your barrel a 1-7 twist rate? Some won't play nicely with 55 gr. ammo or less.

TheDomFather said:

Agreed, this is very strange, any suggestions?

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ay. As suggestions go, and this is just something to consider that no one ever seems to do on these online forums since for some odd reason we like to assume every shooter is a accomplished marksmen.....maybe the shooter doesn't shoot well. Human error is always the biggest variable in shooting...anything.

Harmonics in a custom load my be offset favorably when hand loading, but there is always also the potential of SO many other variables variables

As suggestions go, and this is just something to consider that no one ever seems to do on these online forums since for some odd reason we like to assume every shooter is a accomplished marksmen.....maybe the shooter doesn't shoot well. Human error is always the biggest variable in shooting...anything.

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He seems to shoot his handloads ok but falls apart shooting factory ammunition... really?

I do agree with @Llama Bob that this would probably qualify as the worst factory ammunition in recorded history if it is the ammo, but it is a mystery that handloads shoot ok, albeit at a lower velocity.

It's still pretty obvious, carefully handloaded ammo will always show a larger dispersion once the powder is increased after a certain point. It's known handloading lore you then back off the grain weight of powder to get back to the optimal accuracy. Thats one reason the 2600 fps is much more accurate than the 3000 fps second (rate) factory fodder.

"Factory" ammo is no guarantee of best case accuracy, ever. It's a false assumption. It's why people handload, to get the best grain weight powder, the optimal OAL, the ogive in the sweet spot of engaging the lands, etc etc of which handloading forums are filled with posts.

There is no way a factory load at random meets all the best specifications for any one rifle, and it's common knowledge that the cheapest fodder filling the white boxes sold for the least money is also the most likely to be inaccurate. If anything it's somewhat dumfounding that it would be held as some kind of accuracy standard. It's cheap junk. Why demand it perform like a carefully selected and assembled handload?

While the group size does seem to be extreme the overall results fit what most of us would expect. And why the hobby of handloading exists at all. Factory ammo isn't all that, and the cheap junk sold for the low price guaranteed is surely some of the worst out there.

223 is generally not much of a kicker, but since the op has been changing out sights and tweaking the rifle I'd go with combo of shooter error and possibly shifting mounts. Keep in mind most rifle scopes are set paralax free somewhere around 100 to 150 yards. From a bench for an inexperienced shooter it would be very easy to move his head slightly between shots with a little more recoil and end up with paralax errors in sighting. Very easy test is load a mag with alternating factory and reloads. Shoot a group of 10 rounds and see if the 5 reloads are tightly clustered, walking in groups, or just random with the others. My suspicion is the factory will be touching the previous soft shooting reload then have a different point of impact for the next reload if anything in either the gun or his form moves. Should tell him very quickly if its the ammo, the shooter, or the equipment.

My 1/7 twist likes 69 gr sierras at 2700 fps, the 55s are not as accurate, but, no where near 6 inch at 25 or 50 for that matter. you rifle may not like 3000fps, and may be one that likes a slower load. Did you try finding factory loaded ammo at or around 2700?

Could you be chasing the bull? i.e. are you 100% aiming at the same spot every time to see what your group looks like or are you trying to adjust each shot to hit a bullseye? if the later, this will spread your groups out.

I also agree at 25 yards parallax is potentially an issue, my son had the same issue until we got him an adjustable objective scope that would adjust down to 25 yards.

Last, confidence, if you believe you shoot your hand loads better, you will, generally not 6 inches better at 25 yards, but, still could contribute.

Oh yeah, take your scope off, take your scope rail off, clean your scope rail screws, add a little loctite and put the rail back on from the factory there may be preservative on the screws that can allow them to loosen. Do the same for your bases. See if this helps. Does not take a lot of movement to throw things off from shot to shot.

if you still have the same issue, then, there is most likely human error or something whacked with the scope. maybe the faster bullet recoils enough to throw the scope off. you will have to try swapping the scope, see if that fixed, then try something else. Start with a solid base, then as said above, change one thing at a time to find the culprit.

Just a few thoughts.