AR-15 Long Range Questions

Jmar I'm glad you seem to be shifting from the idea of one gun to do everything. I think in the long run you'll be better served by having several.

I looked at the 700 and 770 last year. The 770 seemed nice but cheap. The 700 is really nice. I hope you get many years of joy from it. And hopefully you'll learn and grow with it.

I can't comment on 30-06 vs 308 so all I can say is if you're swapping stuff I hope you get good instruction as I'd think it'd be a bit more involved than swapping an upper on an AR.

I can tell you that I'm hoping to have my AR build done minus the optics in the next month or two. I'm thinking maybe a cheap red dot or flip ups to shoot it some until I get the scope I want. In my case I'm hoping to work on my short range to 100 to 200 yard skills to eventually try 3 gun. In my case I'm hoping this helps me with building some practical skills and also having some fun too. Plus a goal to train for.

I hope your long range goal does the same for you.

Single stage press: $130(ish) dies: $30-$50 a lb of rl17: $30ish calipers: $25ish 168gr amax $29/100 scale and trickler: <$50 loading tray: $5 ETA forgot case lube, not expensive.
That gets you to 1000 yds for about the same price as that new barrel, AND takes care of quality ammo. If you wanted a .308 they DO make rifles chambered in .308.

jmar said:

I just want to do an update. The rifle I went with is a Remington 700 ADL in 30-06. I'm going to get a Rock Creek barrel for it in .308.

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Why?? If you want a .308, why not buy one? And if you now have a .30-06 what benefits do you think .308 gives you? I'm really interested in your motives with this one.

Hokie_PhD said:

Jmar I'm glad you seem to be shifting from the idea of one gun to do everything. I think in the long run you'll be better served by having several.

I looked at the 700 and 770 last year. The 770 seemed nice but cheap. The 700 is really nice. I hope you get many years of joy from it. And hopefully you'll learn and grow with it.

I can't comment on 30-06 vs 308 so all I can say is if you're swapping stuff I hope you get good instruction as I'd think it'd be a bit more involved than swapping an upper on an AR.

I can tell you that I'm hoping to have my AR build done minus the optics in the next month or two. I'm thinking maybe a cheap red dot or flip ups to shoot it some until I get the scope I want. In my case I'm hoping to work on my short range to 100 to 200 yard skills to eventually try 3 gun. In my case I'm hoping this helps me with building some practical skills and also having some fun too. Plus a goal to train for.

I hope your long range goal does the same for you.

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The 770 has a decent barrel and shoots straight but the bolt and trigger would make the Pope swear.

Another fool's errand.

Burn up that 30-06 barrel with 178 ELD's and H4350 and maybe you'll find some clarity on what you'll need to shoot 1,000yrds. Put a good brake on it, lest you wear out your shoulder in a big hurry, and so much for spotting your own impacts.

jmar said:

I bought a 30-06 because I'm building a M24 SWS replica. They came from the factory in 30-06 long actions then were fitted with a .308 barrel.This is because they wanted to modify them to shoot a longer round than .308 in the future which couldn't be done with a short action. Also since 30-06 has always been a more popular cartridge in R700's they are about $100 cheaper on Gunbroker used.

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Gonna point out here a long action barrel swap to .308 woulda been loads cheaper and easier with a savage platform. (Including cost of time and tools here)

Poor guy.
It was a lot of reading, so I skimmed though a lot of the bs. If there's no talking you out of a ar15 for 1000y then build a model after the MK12. My woman has a MK12 clone, hits steel at 1050, sort of. I'm pretty sure it tumbles in to the steel but I can still barely hear it out there in the canyon and see the weak splash off the steel. I don't care if it yaws, tumbles flips or whatever, if its repeatable, a hit is a hit on a 9 inch plate at beyond what that cart is good for with an 18 in barrel. To me thats a win. She uses the 73gr ELDs and before I was loading up the 77gr SMKs but she handles her own **** now. In the desert though, wind is huge factor, especially with that particular cartridge, complex gust and multi directional winds are common and it can become borderline impossible to intentionally get good consistent hits without walking the rounds on...and with random gust...sometimes that doesnt work well either. True dope for drop is the easy part.
Self defense with a precision rifle? unless you plan on dropping into the badlands with Tier 1 guys, then you might just want to get another upper or a different defensive gun....buying mounts with a triji rmr on top or offsetting irons or other optics and being able to be effective for cqb is both money, and more important, skill sets that 98.9% (im making that number up, but its probably close) people on here dont and will never have. I'm not to partial to shooting people around residents with a rifle but if you might use a carbine length with some soft points like fusion msr will be more than adequate for the most likely situations...while not killing the neighbors too.

jmar said:

I bought a 30-06 because I'm building a M24 SWS replica. They came from the factory in 30-06 long actions then were fitted with a .308 barrel.This is because they wanted to modify them to shoot a longer round than .308 in the future which couldn't be done with a short action. Also since 30-06 has always been a more popular cartridge in R700's they are about $100 cheaper on Gunbroker used.

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So you want to copy some specific niche rifle just because. Because why? You want to take a long action rifle, and modify it to shoot a short action cartridge....so you can one day maybe modify it to shoot a long action cartridge??!

And I'll ask again, why do you want to shoot .308 over 30-06?

horsey300 said:

The 770 has a decent barrel and shoots straight but the bolt and trigger would make the Pope swear.

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I don't know about the trigger as I didn't play with one long enough to get a good idea how it was, but you're right on the bolt. I haven't done much fabrication, but I'm sure I could have gotten one that wasn't so jerky and rough. I guess Remington felt a little more time with fit and finish was too expensive and would result in 700 sales dropping. I was shocked as the rest of it seemed really nice for the price. So I gave up on considering a bolt rifle for now and decided to put together an AR. I'm finding that assembling the AR, searching for deals, and learning about all of the options is a lot of fun. What I've concluded though, is that like cars, there's always give and take. So one has to decide what they're trying to achieve to get the closest to that goal. If your goal is specific then getting there is easier. The further the objectives are from each other the more difficult. Hence why OP is having a hard time with his original objectives and why he's had to adjust some.

jmar said:

I would not call the M24 a "niche rifle", it is just a Remington 700 with a better barrel and stock. It's quite the opposite of niche. I will never be swapping it to a long action cartridge most likely. I'm building a replica so it's just what I need to do, If I bought the gun in a short action it would no longer be a replica. Same as if I went with .308, the originals never came in 30-06.

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Okay, niche is the wrong word. But consider what you're attempting, and why they built the rifle the way they did. Was .308 their first choice for a cartridge? Obviously not if as you claim, they purposely used a long action receiver and bolt, hoping to be able to use a different cartridge at some later point. You are not constrained by the military requirements to utilize a NATO cartridge (or variant of one), so why build a replica of a "make do", "wish for better" rifle? If the answer is that you think it's cool, that's a totally acceptable reason. Just not a practical one.

horsey300 said:

The 770 has a decent barrel and shoots straight but the bolt and trigger would make the Pope swear.

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Yep.

I can understand converting a 30-06 to .308 as it would enable seating VLD bullets longer so as not to eat up powder capacity. Then of course the OP would need to invest in hand loading equipment to take advantage.

On the other hand why not take the money that would used for the conversion and put it towards a better stock? That's with the assumption the OP's rifle has an OEM synthetic stock which on an ADL is not something I'd be proud to take home and introduce to Mumsy.

And what about the trigger? Unless it's an older model with a Walker trigger(another can of worms) can it be adjusted enough to be useable for long range?

What about the scope? I may have missed it but what scope is the OP going to use? A decent scope is going to cost a lot more than a 700 ADL. How much does a good bipod, mount and rings cost?

I actually think an ADL is an excellent foundation but there is a lot more money that will have to be spent to get a 600-1,000 yard target trainer rifle, which just about every poster has stated.

If I sound snarky so be it.

How "replica" are you planning on getting? Didn't we start with a $700 budget?
A Rock Creek barrel is about $300, the M24 stock over $500. Plus labor.

I don't know if the military is actually converting long action .308s to .300 Win Mag or just buying new. Not much usable from the existing rifle except the receiver; bolt, barrel, and magazine must be changed, and I am sure there are new ideas in stocks. Might be some legalistic advantage in an expensive conversion, they can tell the budgeteers "Look, its the same rifle, same serial number on the property list, we just modified it a bit."

Like I said - this kid is a ping pong ball...

I want an AR for 1,000yrds for $700 because I saw a guy do it on YouTube...

I want a defensive carbine capable of 1,000yrds...

I found a sale priced 1:8" barrel...

I saw another YouTube video of someone shooting an 18" AR at 1,000yrds...

I want an AR in 223/5.56 as a cheap ammo, low recoil training option...

I bought a .30-06 so I could build it into a .308 like some arbitrary .mil clone I picked...

No focus or understanding at all, and he seems dead set on undermining himself by picking, and bouncing between what is available and what he sees on YouTube instead of what makes practical sense.

And of course, he's failing to realize he'll have more than his original $700 budget into the gunsmithing and barrel work to fix up that ADL into his clone. Probably 2-3x as much. New barrel plus a smith to block the magazine and spin it all together will be over $700 in itself, before you talk about the new mag parts, new $150-200 trigger, and new stock. That HS isn't a Cadillac, but it still comes in somewhere around $300-400+. On top of whatever he foolishly paid for the ADL, hopefully on the order of $200-250.

Excellent summary. You are a terror aren't you? But thanks, I was fixing to get snarky again and you saved me from it.

Yup, @cdb1, I'm always prone to ride that line between "he's a straight shooter, he tells it like it is," and the other side of "that guy's a d!ck." A colleague and I talk about the "career limiting conversations" we've had over the years where we know our position is uncomfortable for some, but it has to be said - and we're the guys who don't feel bad about saying it.

I'm always happy to help, and what's most compelling for me about this kid is the fact he ACTUALLY HAS ACCESS TO A 1,000YRD RANGE... I guess I'm in that transitional age where I'm young enough to remember when I didn't know a damned thing so every little thing I heard was exciting and new, but old enough to realize, when the whole world points one direction, it's probably at least worth while trying to understand why they are, or at least why you shouldn't point the opposite...

cdb1 said:

I can understand converting a 30-06 to .308 as it would enable seating VLD bullets longer so as not to eat up powder capacity.

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Here ya go amigo, I hate to break our streak for this week, but maybe you won't agree with my post on this one....?

For 308win, the difference in long vs. short action isn't worth much, nothing like what it's worth in cartridges like 6.5-284, or 260rem. I had a mid-length Mauser in 308win built years ago and went through the same math I'll share below.

ASSUMING THE RIFLE HAD SUFFICIENT THROAT:

The Berger 175, seated with the corner of the boattail at the shoulder/neck junction will have a COAL of 2.913" (full neck contact with the bearing surface, and not a thousandths more seated into the case), the 185 Berger would have a COAL of 2.920" Comparatively, AICS mags and Wyatt mags have 2.880" COAL allowance, so you're talking about picking up 0.04" of seating depth. With a 0.0731cc/grn density on Varget, that's 0.66grn more capacity, and scaling load data from Berger and Hornady, that's only 30-40fps. I don't think anyone is going to shoot the 230grn berger out of a 308win, pretty hard to manage 2100fps, but might pick up enough to be worth talking about, as it'd gain somewhere around 150-180fps - but I don't know anyone shooting 230's out of 308win at 1,000yrds as they drop more than the 175's, so the fact the 230 might gain 180fps is moot for me - the 175 doesn't gain enough speed to be worth it, and it shoots flatter than the 230.

I'm thinking the Seekins is 2.9xx", but can't recall off of the top of my head, so the benefit in other bottom metals/mags could be even less.

Varminterror said:

Here ya go amigo, I hate to break our streak for this week, but maybe you won't agree with my post on this one....?

For 308win, the difference in long vs. short action isn't worth much, nothing like what it's worth in cartridges like 6.5-284, or 260rem. I had a mid-length Mauser in 308win built years ago and went through the same math I'll share below.

ASSUMING THE RIFLE HAD SUFFICIENT THROAT:

The Berger 175, seated with the corner of the boattail at the shoulder/neck junction will have a COAL of 2.913" (full neck contact with the bearing surface, and not a thousandths more seated into the case), the 185 Berger would have a COAL of 2.920" Comparatively, AICS mags and Wyatt mags have 2.880" COAL allowance, so you're talking about picking up 0.04" of seating depth. With a 0.0731cc/grn density on Varget, that's 0.66grn more capacity, and scaling load data from Berger and Hornady, that's only 30-40fps. I don't think anyone is going to shoot the 230grn berger out of a 308win, pretty hard to manage 2100fps, but might pick up enough to be worth talking about, as it'd gain somewhere around 150-180fps - but I don't know anyone shooting 230's out of 308win at 1,000yrds as they drop more than the 175's, so the fact the 230 might gain 180fps is moot for me - the 175 doesn't gain enough speed to be worth it, and it shoots flatter than the 230.

I'm thinking the Seekins is 2.9xx", but can't recall off of the top of my head, so the benefit in other bottom metals/mags could be even less.

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I believe you. After I posted there was a voice in the back of my head asking why I never hear of people doing it with 30-06/.308 like they do with other cartridges, namely 6.5x284 and 6x284.

I will call you out on something though. I've been told you go through a ritual to get in the right zen frame of mind when you reload. Namely that you get your hair done and dress up in your wife's clothes. Is that really necessary?

The legend is bigger than the reality - I run a comb through my beard to keep it from snagging on the turret head as it turns, but usually just throw a ball cap on top. I don't wear full dress of my wife's clothes, but I've found that silk thong panties breath better at the reloading bench, so I don't get swamp-ass quite as bad sitting through a long session of a lot of rounds.



ETA: Kinda funny side note - I've competed in a lot of different sports, even at professional level, and I've often been that guy folks expect to have some odd ritual to prepare my mind. I end up being the opposite most of the time - I'm never not in the mood, never in the mood, I just do it. So that's my "#zenlife," I let my emotions go where they will when I can so I'm practiced at changing my mood to fit when the need arises - like a river that runs fast and hard in certain stretches and slow and calm in others, always ready to adapt to the terrain at hand. It also helps that I'm a sociopath...

I'm partial to leopard print thongs myself. Puts me in the mood.

In a lot of your posts, it seems as though you are lying to yourself. The trend continues in this latest post. Your rifle, which is NOT an M24, will not hold any more value than what you paid for it as an ADL - and you will have painted yourself into a very limited market of buyers by creating a clone. It's not an M24, it's a cheap ADL action with a very specific clone job done. It'll be worth far, far less than the amount you pay to build it. Used Rem 700's don't really hold value any better than used Savage 10/110/12/112's, nor Ruger M77's, and frankly, not as well as a Win 70. Maybe you're relying upon the ability to find some sucker who won't know what he's really looking at to pay you too much for it, but it's not an M24, and an ADL could never be such. In other words, you can't fake your way into the ~$10,000 M24 civilian market rifle kit.

While the military did use long actions for the M24 for 30yrs, we all made fun of them for it, and were rooting for them to follow through on converting them to 300wm. The M24 was a massive logistical failure, they were already halfway through procurement before they realized they wouldn't have access to ammunition... The right hand didn't know what the left was doing, and they punted once they realized their blunder.

If you're going to spend the money on a proper primary rifle build, and if you have become comfortable with the idea of 2-3x ammo cost, then great. The whole M24 clone deal is misguided, but whatever turns your knobs. On a long action, I'd shoot the first barrel until it burned out, then rebarrel to 6.5-06, 280, 6.5-284, or 284win and utilize the gift you're giving yourself of the extra horse power possible with the long action, instead of crippling yourself with a short action cartridge. If you opened the bolt face, a 7rem mag or 7-300 plays very well at 1,000 and beyond - and the feed rail & mag modification won't be any more extensive than what you're talking about for building a 308 on a 30-06 length action. I'd personally go 6.5-06 AI.

some can learn from another's mistakes, some just have to pee on the electric fence.