How to refine a load?

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brewer12345

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I am working on a load for a 44 mag rifle and I don't have a lot of experience working up loads. My rifle likes the ultramax 44 cowboy load, but they are really expensive. I tested several loads today and the standout was.6.5 grains of trail boss and a.240.grain 44 special bullet from Missouri. This load was almost as good as the ultramax offering and was still soft shooting. 6 grains was not nearly as good. Is there a way to tighten the groups further? What powder change increments should I try? Any other tricks??
 
I start at starting load and work .2 gr up (or if its an exceptionally wide load range, I start in the middle) per group. I then try to find the smallest group, with a load on each side that is also acceptable.. then I'll set my pm to that accurate one knowing I have some leeway for up to .2 +/- for good accuracy.
 
brewer12345 wrote:
Is there a way to tighten the groups further?
Click to expand...

Proper load development is to begin with the Starting Load per the published guidance you are following. If you are consulting several published sources then you will want to look at what is similar and different about each source's load and develop a "consensus" Starting Load (as well as consensus Maximum Load) and then based on the difference between the Starting Load and the Maximum Load increase the powder charge in 0.1, 0.2 or 0.3 grain increments.

If you can shoot where you load, then load up about 10 rounds with your Starting Load, fire them and note the result. If it isn't giving you everything you want, then add, say, 0.2 grains and load another 10. Continue until you either 1) start to get pressure signs, or 2) reach the Maximum Load.

If you can't shoot where you load, then you will need to load up 10 rounds each at the Starting Load and then 10 rounds each at each increment until you reach Maximum Load. If the range from Starting Load to Maximum Load is as wide as, say, 2 grains and your increment is, say, 0.2 grains, you will end up loading 100 or more rounds to fully cover the "ladder". Keep each batch of 10 bullets segregated and when you go to the range start shooting from the Starting Load working your way through towards the Maximum Loads, noting the results as you go. Continue until you either 1) start to get pressure signs, or 2) reach the Maximum Load.

Once you are done, pick the load that gives you the best combination of feel, function and accuracy.
 
What bullet from MBC are you using. I am guessing with the use of Trail Boss you are loading "Cowboy Action" loads?

MBC has bullet hardness of 12 and 18. The softer bullet may be a better choice (if you are using the hard ones) due to the lower velocity loads.

May help with accuracy.

Just a thought. If you already have the soft ones then follow what HD posted above,
 
I am using MBC Cowboy #3, which is TCFP and 12 Brinnell. The goal for this load is to find a softer shooting round that isn't unpleasant in a 5 pound rifle and hopefully stays low enough speed that I can take rabbits with it (I do the same with 38 special in a rifle). I tried lower end loads of HP38 and Unique, as well as 6 grains (starting load) and6.5 grains (almost middle of range) of Trail Boss. Hodgdon says Trail boss loads should start at 6.0 grains and max at 7.3. Since I found that 6.5 shoots well, should I try .1 grain increments or .2 grain around 6.5? I cannot load on the spot at my range, so I have to make up loads at home and try them out at a later date. I do not want to get anywhere near max load even for Trail Boss because out of a rifle barrel the velocity is likely to be too high for my purposes.
 
Change one thing at a time and note the effects.

If you change bullet, powder, charge, seating depth, primer and case or any two at the same time, regardless if the change makes it better or worse, you won't know what one made the difference.

FWIW the order I listed the variables above will likely be the order of importance, right after you and your firearm.
 
jmorris said:
Change one thing at a time and note the effects.

If you change bullet, powder, charge, seating depth, primer and case or any two at the same time, regardless if the change makes it better or worse, you won't know what one made the difference.

FWIW the order I listed the variables above will likely be the order of importance, right after you and your firearm.
Click to expand...

I hear you on changing one thing at a time. Learned that one years ago.

I don't plan to change anything but the charge in this case. I will try 6.3 and. 6.7 grains next time out. The 6.5 load is already minute of rabbit at 50 yards, so if I can do no better with a load tweak I already consider this a success. Now to start on a low to moderate jacketed load with unique.
 
hdwhit said:
Proper load development is to begin with the Starting Load per the published guidance you are following. If you are consulting several published sources then you will want to look at what is similar and different about each source's load and develop a "consensus" Starting Load (as well as consensus Maximum Load) and then based on the difference between the Starting Load and the Maximum Load increase the powder charge in 0.1, 0.2 or 0.3 grain increments.

If you can shoot where you load, then load up about 10 rounds with your Starting Load, fire them and note the result. If it isn't giving you everything you want, then add, say, 0.2 grains and load another 10. Continue until you either 1) start to get pressure signs, or 2) reach the Maximum Load.

If you can't shoot where you load, then you will need to load up 10 rounds each at the Starting Load and then 10 rounds each at each increment until you reach Maximum Load. If the range from Starting Load to Maximum Load is as wide as, say, 2 grains and your increment is, say, 0.2 grains, you will end up loading 100 or more rounds to fully cover the "ladder". Keep each batch of 10 bullets segregated and when you go to the range start shooting from the Starting Load working your way through towards the Maximum Loads, noting the results as you go. Continue until you either 1) start to get pressure signs, or 2) reach the Maximum Load.

Once you are done, pick the load that gives you the best combination of feel, function and accuracy.
Click to expand...

Combine this listed above with a magneto speed or a chronometer and measure velocity for each load as well. Write it down, capture velocity for each shot, Extreme spread, standard deviation and high and low. As you increase your load within the guidelines of the range in your reference points.

Say the load is 23 gr min and 25.5 max I would load 10 rounds each in 23, 23.5, 24, 24.5 and 25 ( I would stay away from max charge initially) Also document any malfunctions, FTF, FTE bolt doesnt lock open after last round. I have the magnetospeed sportster and I beleive its on sale for $150 from midwayUSA right now however, you can get many chronos much cheaper. Check your spent brass for signs of excess pressure in each powder weight as well to ensure you arent approaching anything dangerous. I print out some paper targets and write the load I shot down on them so you can see what groupings you got with what load.
 
Funny this thread kicked up today. I shot test rounds with 6.3, 6.5 and 6.7 grains of trail boss. The 6.3 was nothing special, but the 6.5 was (again) accurate and the 6.7 was about as good. So I will probably load 6.6 grains of trail boss so that deviations on either side will still perform well.

I also started on a 240 grain Nosler JHP load based on Unique. This is a little hard to cuff initially because different sources give very different load data. Alliant says that max is 10.3 grains, while Lyman says 10.8 grains is where to start. Since I want a mid-range load, I started with 9.2 grains and walked it up .2 grains at a time to 10 grains. Only the 10 grain load shows promise, so I will probably start at 10 rains and walk it up by .1 grains to 10.5. I find recoil of full house loads to be a bit more than I like in this little 5 pound carbine (deer loads are pretty thumping), so I want to avoid going way up in the ranges Lyman mentions. The weird thing I encountered today is that the JHP loads had a much lower point of impact than the milquetoast lead bullet trail boss loads. I assume this has something to do with the relative slipperiness of lubed lead vs. jacketed bullets? The difference was like 18 to 24 inches at 50 yards, with the jacketed printing way down low.
 
Thoughts:

1) 0.1gr charge variations are meaningless, especially in a pistol caliber carbine. 0.2 is just enough to see a difference and .3-.4 is really more likely to give noticeable changes. (Don't believe me? Get a chronograph and generate some numbers. Depending on the barrel/cartridge combo, the velocity difference of .1gr of powder easily gets lost in the SD and ES variations.)

2) It's a pistol caliber carbine! I've had a few through my hands and I've never had one that would shoot better than 2-MOA. That's a 1" group at 50-yards. Plenty accurate to be useful but inaccurate enough to cover a lot of reloading sins.

3) Elevation varies wildly with ammo power/velocity. I don't remember what the difference was between my .44 Special and .44 Magnum loads in my Marlin 1894, just that it was significant enough to require re-zeroing or knowing my holdovers, starting at 25 yards. I seem to recall light .44 Magnum loads running around 1000-1100 fps tracked close enough to full power 1600-fps loads out to 50 yards that I would use them interchangeably if the targets weren't too small. Past 50 yards they diverged pretty significantly.

4) Best accuracy with jacketed bullets might come with full-power .44 Magnum loads. Again working from rough memory, I recall the most accurate .44 Magnum loads I had being max-charges of Winchester 296 powder and 240gr Hornady XTPs. And this combination worked reliably across 5 different rifles and revovlers. A sixth one didn't shoot well with it, and it turned out that rifle wouldn't group with anything we tried.
 
brewer12345 said:
Funny this thread kicked up today. I shot test rounds with 6.3, 6.5 and 6.7 grains of trail boss. The 6.3 was nothing special, but the 6.5 was (again) accurate and the 6.7 was about as good. So I will probably load 6.6 grains of trail boss so that deviations on either side will still perform well.

I also started on a 240 grain Nosler JHP load based on Unique. This is a little hard to cuff initially because different sources give very different load data. Alliant says that max is 10.3 grains, while Lyman says 10.8 grains is where to start. Since I want a mid-range load, I started with 9.2 grains and walked it up .2 grains at a time to 10 grains. Only the 10 grain load shows promise, so I will probably start at 10 rains and walk it up by .1 grains to 10.5. I find recoil of full house loads to be a bit more than I like in this little 5 pound carbine (deer loads are pretty thumping), so I want to avoid going way up in the ranges Lyman mentions. The weird thing I encountered today is that the JHP loads had a much lower point of impact than the milquetoast lead bullet trail boss loads. I assume this has something to do with the relative slipperiness of lubed lead vs. jacketed bullets? The difference was like 18 to 24 inches at 50 yards, with the jacketed printing way down low.
Click to expand...
I would not go to 6.6gr yet. I would go with 6.9gr, 7.1gr and 7.3gr first. You will usually find the most accurate two loads and the you try the load/loads between those two. Since 6.5gr and 6.7gr were very close in accuracy try 6.9gr next and so on.

As for the Nosler loads, I do not recommend using charge weights well below starting charges. There is a reason why they call them starting loads. If you use too light a load, especially with jacketed bullets, you can stick a bullet in the barrel.

When you have a charge range of 1 full grain or more I would not increase the charge weight by only .1gr. You will see very little difference in performance and it's a waste of time and components IMO.
 
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brewer12345 said:
Funny this thread kicked up today. I shot test rounds with 6.3, 6.5 and 6.7 grains of trail boss. The 6.3 was nothing special, but the 6.5 was (again) accurate and the 6.7 was about as good. So I will probably load 6.6 grains of trail boss so that deviations on either side will still perform well.

I also started on a 240 grain Nosler JHP load based on Unique. This is a little hard to cuff initially because different sources give very different load data. Alliant says that max is 10.3 grains, while Lyman says 10.8 grains is where to start. Since I want a mid-range load, I started with 9.2 grains and walked it up .2 grains at a time to 10 grains. Only the 10 grain load shows promise, so I will probably start at 10 rains and walk it up by .1 grains to 10.5. I find recoil of full house loads to be a bit more than I like in this little 5 pound carbine (deer loads are pretty thumping), so I want to avoid going way up in the ranges Lyman mentions. The weird thing I encountered today is that the JHP loads had a much lower point of impact than the milquetoast lead bullet trail boss loads. I assume this has something to do with the relative slipperiness of lubed lead vs. jacketed bullets? The difference was like 18 to 24 inches at 50 yards, with the jacketed printing way down low.
Click to expand...


I have noticed that my Lyman manual typically has a higher range than my hornady manual for the calibers I load.
 
Interesting comments. FWIW, I did not start below the minimum for what Alliant gave as the range. Your guess is as good as mine as to why the Lyman range is so much above the Alliant range, but Lyman actually gives pressure numbers for its min and max and if they are accurate the Alliant load data is for quite low pressure loads.

The accuracy potential of the rifle is an issue, but since I am shooting with iffy eyesight and open sights I doubt the limitation is the rifle. So yes, a certain amount of accuracy is necessary and after that it will be difficult to tell if the issue is the load, the rifle, or the shooter. On the bright side, after shooting this rifle or a 357 lever with a peep, any scoped rifle feels like child's play when it comes to getting good accuracy...

With the Trail Boss load I don't think I want to keep boosting the charge in a quest for greater accuracy. The load I have ended up with is accurate enough for my purposes and any more velocity than the minimum needed to be accurate is a minus. This is intended as a light recoil plinking load and a bunny blaster in 25 to 40 yard ranges. More oomph means more recoil and a greater chance of blowing up a bunny rather than bringing home dinner.

The Unique load was starting to show promise right at 10 grains. Given the suggestions here, I will try again with 10.2, 10.4, 10.6, 10.8 and 11 grains to see what I can get this combination to do. I could feel a definite difference in recoil between 9.2 and 10 grains of powder, so if I can get good accuracy without going much higher I will take it.

While I was at it, I ran 8 or 10 Hornady Leverevolution shells through this rifle to make sure I was ready for deer season (I got a lousy tag in the leftover lottery, but might as well be ready). Based on the results and my eyesight, I remain convinced this is a 75 to 100 yard max proposition for me. That should be fine where I will hunt, and if it isn't I can always switch to a scoped 30-06.
 
The Ultramax .44 Special Cowboy Load? Is a cast 200 grain bullet at 725 fps. Their .44 Mag load is a cast 240 at 710 FPS. Both are .44 Special mid range loads that can be loaded in .44 Mag cases with no fuss. Same bullet using .44 Mag data is considerably faster.
6.5 of Trail Boss is a mid range cast bullet magnum Pistol load. No Trail Boss loads on Hodgdon's rifle site. However, any cast bullet load in any magnum will be gentle as you can't drive a cast bullet at jacketed magnum velocities without causing leading.
Anyway, do this to work up loads. It's slightly different for bottle necked rifle cartridges.
Beginning with the starting load given in your manual, load 5 rounds only(A cylinder load will do. Some ranges will only allow 5 though. one round won't matter.). Go up by 1/10 of a grain(.1) of powder, loading 5(or a cylinder load.) of each keeping them separate(factory boxes are good for this) until you get to the max load in your manual.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 25 or 25 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a solid rest.
Change targets between strings of 5(or a mag load) and allow time for the barrel to cool.
"...0.1gr charge variations are meaningless..." That's not at all true. Start load for a cast 240 magnum is 6.0. Max is 7.3. A whole 1.3 grains difference. 14 test loads at .1. 7 at .2.
 
Sunray said:
The Ultramax .44 Special Cowboy Load? Is a cast 200 grain bullet at 725 fps. Their .44 Mag load is a cast 240 at 710 FPS. Both are .44 Special mid range loads that can be loaded in .44 Mag cases with no fuss. Same bullet using .44 Mag data is considerably faster.
6.5 of Trail Boss is a mid range cast bullet magnum Pistol load. No Trail Boss loads on Hodgdon's rifle site. However, any cast bullet load in any magnum will be gentle as you can't drive a cast bullet at jacketed magnum velocities without causing leading.
Anyway, do this to work up loads. It's slightly different for bottle necked rifle cartridges.
Beginning with the starting load given in your manual, load 5 rounds only(A cylinder load will do. Some ranges will only allow 5 though. one round won't matter.). Go up by 1/10 of a grain(.1) of powder, loading 5(or a cylinder load.) of each keeping them separate(factory boxes are good for this) until you get to the max load in your manual.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 25 or 25 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a solid rest.
Change targets between strings of 5(or a mag load) and allow time for the barrel to cool.
"...0.1gr charge variations are meaningless..." That's not at all true. Start load for a cast 240 magnum is 6.0. Max is 7.3. A whole 1.3 grains difference. 14 test loads at .1. 7 at .2.
Click to expand...

That is basically what I did. I imagine my load is faster than the ultramax, but as long as it is not over 1000 fps or so it should just pass through rabbits instead of blowing them up. Good enough for me and I don't have to worry about the bullet getting stuck.
 
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