1858 conversion cylinder worth it?

Respectfully, to me, no they are not worth it. The one and only one I fired was neat for sure, and surprisingly accurate. But for me personally, cap and ball is preferred in this type of firearm. Its easy to learn, cheap, and fun. By no means am I knocking the conversions. Also Im not sure on the pressure of the load your after but cheap doesn't always mean low pressure. I'd be most concerned about +p loads out of the conversion. My buddy shot all sorts of standard .45 acp's out of his.

I bought a cap and ball TO SHOOT A CAP AND BALL have no need for a cartridge conversion I want cartridge I use my super blackhawk.
only advantage, marginally faster reloading and slightly less fouling. But you still have to thoroughly clean the gun
By making paper cartridges you you can speed reloading

Also once the conversion cylinder is installed it is classed as a modern gun

Wow!!! That's an opening!!

Welcome to the forum Colombo38!
You'll definitely get opinions if you ask so here's mine!!

THEY ARE AWESOME!!!!! Not only that, they are (for the most part) historically accurate!!!

Most of the time they are quite accurate so if you are interested in a conversion cyl, I say it's money well spent and cheaper than buying another revolver ( except a really cheap one!). To me, it's a lame excuse to say I'd buy a cartridge gun. Some folks may not can't afford to buy several revolvers but they may can afford a cylinder or two to change revolvers they already have. So that's the way I look at it.

Mike

I agree completely Mike, they're a lot of fun. I have a conversion cylinder for every repro revolver I own. I even had Howell's custom fit one for my '51 Colt Navy.

http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/

I'd recommend you shoot the gun with black first. It's a heck of a lot of fun. Fire and smoke - I compare it to mixing shooting with 4th of July fireworks.
I have 2 conversion cylinders but find black powder more enjoyable.

A Kirst in 45 Colt for my Pietta 1858 NMA bought back in 2003:



A R&D Howell in 45 Colt for 1 of my 2 Pietta 1860 Army Revolvers - came with the top Colt as part of an auction on gunbroker:


Hindsight being 20/20 - since cylinders are so easy to remove from the 1858, to me it, would make most $$$ sense to have a Howell conversion cylinder for the Remington. The Howell cylinder is/was (haven't looked at prices recently) less expensive than Kirst. A Kirst with a loading gate would make more sense for the 1860 Pietta as cylinders aren't as easily removed.

In general I find the 1860 has a better action than the 1858. The hammer on the 1858 takes some effort to pull and the factory action is gritty. Overall I enjoy shooting my 1860's more than my 1858. However, I just picked up a short barrel sheriff's model 1858.

Regarding caliber - 45 acp would be lots cheaper to shoot compared to 45 Colt. I keep my eye on factory 45 Colt cowboy load prices and there is nothing affordable about factory ammo for that caliber. I too work overseas and don't have time to reload.

Edit: Link to Kirst http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=2&cat=1858+Remington+Konverters

And yes the Howell conversion is less expensive.

I would not waste my money. One advantage of a muzzle-loading gun is that while the cartridge shooters are messing with brass, you're shooting.

Welcome to cap and ball revolvers. They are a lot of fun to shoot and there is a certain appreciation for the history that goes along with the guns. Learn to shoot what you have now before getting a conversion cylinder. Reloads will only be a little faster with a conversion but still a pain in the butt.

If money is truly tight then don't buy one now. Put the money aside and save a few more dollars and buy a modern gun when you can. You will want it for personal defense and it is better suited for that than a conversion. You will be happier in the long run. Buy the conversion later on when you have the funds to spend and won't miss the money.

That's my two cents worth.

I'm not sure whether it makes good financial sense.

However, the Remington 1858 is an elegant firearm that points extremely well and feels very good in the hand. Personally, I only shoot Black Powder cartridges in my conversion cylinder revolvers. A 200 grs Big Lube bullet over 32 grs of 3F powder is quite substantial. That same bullet over 21 grs with cornmeal filler is an accurate and fun target cartridge.

If one were getting a conversion cylinder to make the firearm a primary defensive revolver, in my opinion it would be better to put the conversion cylinder money towards a good used centerfire revolver. If one wished to have the option of cartridge in an elegant revolver from a bygone era, a conversion cylinder would make a lot of sense.

I have a .45 Colt Kirst gated conversion for my custom Remington Bulldog. It requires some modification to the frame, but it's not awfully difficult. Hugely easier to shoot than the cylinders you need to remove to reload, and it's a drop-in unit (required 4 minutes with a machinist's file to fit) the gun still functions with the original cylinder. It's a blast to shoot and quite accurate, and since I reload it's not overly expensive.


I love it- but I agree with the other posters. Try shooting it as a cap-and-ball before deciding. I shot black-powder revolvers for years, and it's fun; a bit messy and reloads are slow but it's a hoot.
These days I have a specific historic interest in cartridge conversions, and local indoor ranges aren't thrilled with people shooting black powder. The conversion cylinder was worth it to me, but they aren't for everyone.

Another option might be a a modern-production complete cartridge-conversion gun from Cimarron or Taylor's. These are modern firearms and do not have the ammunition constraints of fitting a cartridge conversion to a cap-and-ball gun, and can be had in .38 Special so they are reasonable to shoot with factory ammo.

Colombo38

Have to agree with everyone else who says try shooting it with black powder first and see if it's something you like to do. If not, there are several manufacturers who can supply you with a quality cylinder conversion for cartridge use.

A little more grey to the subject. Style and Looks. No modern revolver quite comes up to the feel and looks of a Remington or Colt cap and ball. The style of the grips, the length of those long barrels, those crude, but surprisingly accurate sights, the guns themselves are artistic expressions of a by gone era. They are however, messy, slow to load and require a lot of kit, don't even get into cleaning. On days I don't want to get into the loading and messing and cleaning, which is rare, I swap out the cylinder, grab a box of smokeless ammo and its off to the range. One of my ROA has one, as well as a Rogers and Spencer's and its just a matter of time before the 1860 has one as well.

I like them. I reload .45 colt and rarely use black powder cartridges anymore. I still can enjoy shooting cap and ball with black powder as well. The cap and ball cylinder chambers are a bit undersized for the bore of the barrel, but the conversion cylinders, in my experience, is near perfect. Midwayusa occasionally has big discounts on Howell conversion cylinders. The 1858's haven't been on sale for quite a while, but probably will be in the fall. Last one I got from them was $167 with free shipping.

Where are you in Virginia? I'm in N. Stafford.

Noelf2, my point exactly!! Where would these "naysayers" find an almost new "cartridge " revolver for less than $200.00?!!
The best part is, the converted cap gun will shoot as well as most and better than some!!

Mike
www goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Colombo38 said:

I'm in the Shenandoah valley for the summer

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The land of my ancestors...

Excellent base for a six shot drop cyl conversion!! I used one for a "sometimes carry".

Mike

45 Dragoon said:

Noelf2, my point exactly!! Where would these "naysayers" find an almost new "cartridge " revolver for less than $200.00?!!
The best part is, the converted cap gun will shoot as well as most and better than some!!

Mike
www goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Click to expand...

Rock Island Armory RIA M206 38 special NIB - Buy it now $185.00
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/672397297

Armscor M200 38Spl 4 6Rd Fs Revolver NIB - Buy it now $190.01
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/672716018

You asked...

DD4lifeusmc said:

only advantage, marginally faster reloading and slightly less fouling.

Click to expand...

Mike OTDP said:

One advantage of a muzzle-loading gun is that while the cartridge shooters are messing with brass, you're shooting.

Click to expand...

Howdy

I don't know what planet you guys have been shooting conversion cylinders on, but here on Earth they are not marginally faster than loading Cap & Ball, and I really don't understand the comment about C&B shooters are shooting while cartridge shooters are messing with brass.

I know a little bit about loading Cap & Ball, I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968. About ten years ago I bought my first conversion cylinder for my old EuroArms Remmie that I bought back in 1975. A few years later I came across a used Uberti Stainless Remmie. It included a conversion cylinder, exactly like my other cylinder, all for the price of a good used revolver. But we can talk about cost in a moment.

The 1858 Remington is a perfect platform for a conversion cylinder. You don't need to cut a loading gate, in fact you don't need to do anything to it, just leave it alone. The six shot cylinders sold by Taylors are perfect for the 1858 Remington. All you do is set the hammer to half cock, drop the loading lever half way, and roll the cylinder out of the left side of the frame. Pop off the cap that contains the firing pins, drop in five rounds, YES FIVE, NOT SIX, pop the cap back on the cylinder and roll it back into the frame. How does that compare to dumping loose powder into a chamber, seating a wad, and seating a ball, X five (not six), then putting five caps on the nipples? There is just no comparison. After shooting the FIVE rounds, remove the cylinder again, pop the empties out with the end of the loading lever if it will fit, otherwise pop them out with a stick or a brass rod. Then reload and shoot. I just don't get it when guys say these things are slow to reload and shoot. Something tells me they don't have much experience with them.

In addition, if you follow the route I described, you are not altering the gun at all. So it is a cartridge revolver while the Conversion Cylinder is in place, but pop the C&B cylinder back in and it reverts to being an antique, unregulated non-firearm.

Regarding ammunition: The makers of these conversion cylinders clearly state a couple of things.

1. Only use them with a steel framed revolver, not a brass framed revolver.

2. Only use 'Cowboy' loads in them. That's where the sticky part comes in. There are no official SAAMI standards for Cowboy ammunition. I quote from the brochure that came with one of my cylinders. "45 Long Colt "Cowboy Ammunition" is nationally available from a number of well known manufacturers. This ammunition is loaded for a maximum velocity of 750 fps to 850 fps, and these are the specifications we recommend."

The problem with that statement is that velocity does not blow up guns. Pressure does. Nowhere, is the pressure of a Cowboy Load defined. Hopefully, the ammo manufacturers keep pressure down, but there is no guarantee of that. SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi, last time I looked. I believe these cylinders have been proofed for that, but I do not guarantee it. If you can find Cowboy Ammo, that is a good alternative.

ABSOLUTELY NO +P. And frankly, buying a conversion cylinder in order to be able to shoot inexpensive 45 ACP is just asking for trouble. You have absolutely no idea what the pressure is, and SAAMI Max pressure for 45 ACP is higher than SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt.

Frankly, I only shoot 45 Colt or 45 Schofield loaded with Black Powder in my conversions. Of course, the Conversion Cylinders have the same inherent defect that the original C&B 1858 Remington had, the lack of a gas collar or bushing on the front of the cylinder. Consequently, a Remington loaded as a C&B or with Black Powder cartridges will tend to foul out sooner than an Open Top Colt design such as the 1851 Navy or 1860 Army. However, the saving grace of the 1858 design is that you can take a damp rag and wipe off the front of the cylinder every time you reload it, and that will keep the gun running all afternoon without binding up.

I would post some photos showing this graphically, but Photobucket is being a pain again. I'll post more photos when Photobucket stops being a pain.


By the way, this is the cylinder I recommend for the 1858 Remington. Notice it has six chambers, not five. There was a patent issue around this, I won't go into it here. I have two of these, and frankly, I have not fired my Remmies as Cap & Ball revolvers since I got the conversion cylinders. As a matter of fact, I have never fired the Stainless Uberti with C&B, only with cartridges.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/parts/conversion-cylinder-parts.html

Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them.

As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.

Howdy Again

Photobucket seems to be working again.

Here is my old EuroArms Remmie wearing its conversion cylinder.






Here is the EuroArms Remmie along with the Stainless Uberti. Not a great photo, but there they are.






And here is the story why the Remington design tends to bind up with either C&B or Black Powder cartridges. Notice that even though the Colt design lacks a bushing on the front of the cylinder, the arbor is larger in diameter, and there is a helical cut around the arbor. This results in clearance for any fouling that has been blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and worked its way onto the arbor. Notice the cylinder pin of the Remington is smaller in diameter. You can see where I cut some clearance grooves onto the pin, but frankly they do not make much difference. But as I said, it is so quick to pop the cylinder out to reload, that the front face of the cylinder can be wiped with a damp rag and the gun will keep shooting all afternoon without binding up.





Or you could just shoot Smokeless Cowboy loads in it.