Jamie B
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Exactly.
LEO Buddy Scenario
- Thread starter Good Ol' Boy
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Jamie B
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coloradokevin
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Honestly, there are an infinite number of ways you can bend this hypothetical to the point that taking action, not taking action, or following your buddy's lead makes sense.
For me, I'd hope that my friend would follow my lead. If I'm in the fight he had better be in the fight with me. But, I'd also hope that I'd chosen my friends closely enough that they understood that there are times when not taking action would be preferable. As LEO's we don't necessarily have a duty to act, and in some instances it can be both a safer and better choice to do nothing.
Again, I only speak for myself here, but if I were going into a hypothetical gun fight (let's say an active shooter incident happens, or something like that), I'd sure want my friend to have my back if he had the tools and skills to do so.
Regardless, I think you ought to talk to your LE friends about this scenario directly. Plan a response to a few hypotheticals, and get on the same page. One of my close friends and shooting buddies is a former car partner of mine from my days working in the 'hood. I've been on enough real-world hot calls with him to know how he'll react in most situations, and the same is true for him with me. My wife and I train together, too, and have discussed some hypotheticals. Those discussions don't always put us in agreement, but it helps to form an understanding. For instance, my preference in an active shooter situation would be to have my wife escape while I fight. But, I know that's not her style, and she wouldn't go for that. She has told me that if I'm in a gun fight and she's there and armed, there's no reason she couldn't be in the gun fight, too.
I have a retired (but works the Airport Buddy) We go out together, not often for the last couple of years, he mostly is not armed! I can not see him getting involved in a unarmed (him) altercation. He is a big guy, was a wrestler in School, very calm, good friend of many years.
I am always armed. Glock 19. A couple of times in the past, we have been in rowdy places, eyeballed by the other patrons, just been cool. They decided to just do the odd dirty look, we were happy to be good coffee drinkers, no fuss. Having been a Bouncer for 5 years in Clubs in Liverpool UK, I tend to not get too flustered.
My Wife and I are together, nearly always, so back to the wall, note the flow and people content is my way.
Two young Gang Bangers followed my Wife of 24 years, around our local Publix store one afternoon.
No basket, no cart! A phone call to her Husband (who does like shopping, reading book in Parking Lot) had me leaned against my marked Security Jeep, in the overhang parking spot. Shirt undone, watching the the two young chaps walk out, behind my Wife. She sped up after exiting! They ran across the parking lot to the Street! Only incident in 14 years of living in Florida.
I am always armed. Glock 19. A couple of times in the past, we have been in rowdy places, eyeballed by the other patrons, just been cool. They decided to just do the odd dirty look, we were happy to be good coffee drinkers, no fuss. Having been a Bouncer for 5 years in Clubs in Liverpool UK, I tend to not get too flustered.
My Wife and I are together, nearly always, so back to the wall, note the flow and people content is my way.
Two young Gang Bangers followed my Wife of 24 years, around our local Publix store one afternoon.
No basket, no cart! A phone call to her Husband (who does like shopping, reading book in Parking Lot) had me leaned against my marked Security Jeep, in the overhang parking spot. Shirt undone, watching the the two young chaps walk out, behind my Wife. She sped up after exiting! They ran across the parking lot to the Street! Only incident in 14 years of living in Florida.
Matthew Temkin
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Just make sure not to shout out, "Hey, you are a cop--DO SOMETHING!!!!
herrwalther
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With the police officers I know, most would respond "You have a gun too, DO SOMETHING."
Absoluteiy. Similar comments have resulted in tragedy.
One of those things for which one should be alert.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
My best friend is not an officer. He is, however, a master class IDPA and USPSA competitor and firearms instructor. He and I hit most of the IDPA and USPSA matches in AZ together, and train together and now that I am retired, we often teach together. I am sure of his competence to act in defense of himself and others.
That being said...he has no experience as an officer, and we have discussed this subject before.
My view is that (pre-supposing I was still active and not retired LE) in an off duty incident such as the OP has described outside my jurisdiction...I would be a good witness. I would only act if I was convinced to my own satisfaction that violence was about to ensue.
The reasons for this are many, but to hit the highlights:
Let's assume the clerk has hit a panic button or silent alarm and officers are en route from the jurisdiction we are in. Smoking a subject as they roll up, not knowing who WE are, could be a recipe to catch (un)friendly fire from the other "good guys". All the responding officers know is that two big guys with guns just shot another human being in the location were an armed robbery had been reported.
The fluid nature of an armed robbery (such as other customers walking in while the robbery is in progress could put innocents in the line of defensive fire, not to mention fire from the subject as well) is such that intervention on the part of an armed citizen, which we would both be in this instance, could endanger more people than it would potentially save. Again, this is predicated on the fact that I am not convinced to my own satisfaction that violence is about to ensue.
I hate to invoke "statistics"...but they do point to the fact that as long as the subject meets no resistance in a convenience store robbery, they will get the money and run. No, this is not 100% true 100% of the time, but in the vast majority of cases of which I am personally aware.
It also depends upon how the subject is armed. If they have a drawn gun...then the situation is more complicated.
If they have a knife, and there is a physical barrier (the counter) between them and the clerk, then you have more freedom to act to stop the robbery, but again this is dependent upon your level of skill. In this situation, then I believe I would draw and issue a warning to stop and drop the weapon. They are still committing an armed robbery and I don't want another customer with no barrier between them and the subject to get stabbed on the way out, or trying to "wrestle the knife away" from the subject. In this case, I believe that customers are in more immediate danger than the clerk within arm's length, or the Tueller Distance.
As an officer, and a trained observer...If I see any gang or prison ink on the subject, then I have access to data bases in gang units that will help in the identification of the subject. There is even a decent chance that I might recognize the subject if they are a regular customer of the justice system. If not, I will damned sure remember them and may be able to hook them up on a later date without endangering bystanders.
No one wants to get killed for the forty bucks or less in a store's register. No one with any sense wants to kill someone over that forty bucks or less.
The time for intervention is that if you honestly believe someone is in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.
I am not saying "never get involved"...but what I am saying is be pretty damned sure that your intervention is going to help more than hurt.
That being said...he has no experience as an officer, and we have discussed this subject before.
My view is that (pre-supposing I was still active and not retired LE) in an off duty incident such as the OP has described outside my jurisdiction...I would be a good witness. I would only act if I was convinced to my own satisfaction that violence was about to ensue.
The reasons for this are many, but to hit the highlights:
Let's assume the clerk has hit a panic button or silent alarm and officers are en route from the jurisdiction we are in. Smoking a subject as they roll up, not knowing who WE are, could be a recipe to catch (un)friendly fire from the other "good guys". All the responding officers know is that two big guys with guns just shot another human being in the location were an armed robbery had been reported.
The fluid nature of an armed robbery (such as other customers walking in while the robbery is in progress could put innocents in the line of defensive fire, not to mention fire from the subject as well) is such that intervention on the part of an armed citizen, which we would both be in this instance, could endanger more people than it would potentially save. Again, this is predicated on the fact that I am not convinced to my own satisfaction that violence is about to ensue.
I hate to invoke "statistics"...but they do point to the fact that as long as the subject meets no resistance in a convenience store robbery, they will get the money and run. No, this is not 100% true 100% of the time, but in the vast majority of cases of which I am personally aware.
It also depends upon how the subject is armed. If they have a drawn gun...then the situation is more complicated.
If they have a knife, and there is a physical barrier (the counter) between them and the clerk, then you have more freedom to act to stop the robbery, but again this is dependent upon your level of skill. In this situation, then I believe I would draw and issue a warning to stop and drop the weapon. They are still committing an armed robbery and I don't want another customer with no barrier between them and the subject to get stabbed on the way out, or trying to "wrestle the knife away" from the subject. In this case, I believe that customers are in more immediate danger than the clerk within arm's length, or the Tueller Distance.
As an officer, and a trained observer...If I see any gang or prison ink on the subject, then I have access to data bases in gang units that will help in the identification of the subject. There is even a decent chance that I might recognize the subject if they are a regular customer of the justice system. If not, I will damned sure remember them and may be able to hook them up on a later date without endangering bystanders.
No one wants to get killed for the forty bucks or less in a store's register. No one with any sense wants to kill someone over that forty bucks or less.
The time for intervention is that if you honestly believe someone is in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.
I am not saying "never get involved"...but what I am saying is be pretty damned sure that your intervention is going to help more than hurt.
scaatylobo
Member
SPOT ON = accept for the TOO OFTEN situation where I am spotted as a "cop" [ retired 10 years now ].
That happens even in places and states that I have never been in ,and people that I have never met.
My wife [ never was on the job ] oftens notes to me that I have been 'made',as she can tell by the "look" that all cops know they get.
I would be VERY,VERY,VERY happy to not ever need the CCW insurances that I carry [ all 3 ] and not have my face on the news,no matter how "good" the shoot was.
So having "that talk" with my friends who CCW and were never LEO's ,is in my not so humble opinion = VERY important.
It would be far too late to have that talk,after rounds were in the air and you were far behind the '8' ball.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
I get it. My best friend says I have "cop stank" even though I am retired now too. It's all in the way we carry ourselves I suppose.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
One other thing occurs to me.
If I say to another officer "Get him!" - It is understood to mean "Subdue the subject using only that force which is necessary to effect the arrest".
HOWEVER...to my non-leo buddy "Get him!" - could easily be misunderstood to mean "Shoot him!".
Anyone want to guess how hard that lawsuit/prosecution brick would land on you? The attorney for the plaintiff or their surviving family would go after the deepest pockets around, and that would be the department and how long do you think your career would last after that? The plaintiff's attorney would argue (probably successfully) that your non-leo buddy was acting as tempus vicarium or a temporary deputy under your aegis.
If I say to another officer "Get him!" - It is understood to mean "Subdue the subject using only that force which is necessary to effect the arrest".
HOWEVER...to my non-leo buddy "Get him!" - could easily be misunderstood to mean "Shoot him!".
Anyone want to guess how hard that lawsuit/prosecution brick would land on you? The attorney for the plaintiff or their surviving family would go after the deepest pockets around, and that would be the department and how long do you think your career would last after that? The plaintiff's attorney would argue (probably successfully) that your non-leo buddy was acting as tempus vicarium or a temporary deputy under your aegis.
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