Browning Hi Power, Discontinued

I sense limited production runs in the future, as a collectible. That way, the price can be justified.

DPris said:

The issue is that as each one of these icons ceases to be produced, it marks an "end of era" situation, and that's where the sadness lies.

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I hear you with that.
I think that bridge was already crossed when S&W and Ruger dropped their metal-framed pistols, and I suspect Sig, Beretta and CZ will eventually do so too. And Walther for the PPK. The big consumers (military and police) see them as outdated, heavy, and overly expensive. To individuals, we relish the craft that went into making them, but most of us who wanted one already have one.

It's the reason I've accumulated a number of metal-frame duty-size pistols. whether they be Beretta, a Norinco Tokarev, a Star 30MI and Super B, CZ, etc. We're just not going to see that level of craftsmanship in the modern pistols, they will be functional, and disposable.

If re-tooling for continuous production would not justify the cost, re-tooling for limited production would be idiotic.
Denis

DPris said:

If re-tooling for continuous production would not justify the cost, re-tooling for limited production would be idiotic.

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That may be the case. But my statement of "justifying the cost" is meant to reflect the price of the pistol. Continuous production just doesn't make sense for this gun, as it's heyday as a military sidearm is phasing out. That leaves it as an awkward piece; at base level it's pricier than a Beretta or a CZ, and up there with or above Sig. Those 3 are newer, DA/SA pistols, and there are SAO variants for all. It's a SA that isn't a 1911, and the US, which is basically the only really large market for private citizens to own guns, is in love with the 1911, not the HP. Many of us already own one, and for those that don't or want more, the used market is swimming with both true FNs and clones, at anywhere from half to a fifth of the cost of new. And as stated, the guns themselves aren't fragile- those used guns usually require a couple springs at most.
The new pistols being made are not selling.

Reducing it to occasional limited runs as commemorative pieces could justify the higher price to the consumer. If they have to retool entirely, perhaps they could just subcontract it out, to, say, a clone maker. Before you gag on that, remember that Walther sent some work to FEG, and the Charles Daly HPs were really just FEGs too. I know FEG is gone now, but there are Turkish makers currently producing them, and Beretta has farmed things out to Turkey.

None of this is a cheerful thought, but just an examination of the situation as it stands. As I've said before, you may want to get your Berettas, Sigs and CZs soon, too, before they also go away. I really think Sig is beginning to enter S&W 3rd Gen territory.

I would not rule out the retooling aspect. It depends on what their current tooling consists of. CNC machinery can be adapted to almost any firearm.

RPZ said:

CNC machinery can be adapted to almost any firearm

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As I understand it, you just need the correct specs in something like Solidworks or other CAD program, right? My son took a couple years of that in high school (and wow, I just got to play with watercolor paints), and they played around with making stuff. As I recalled, they would fiddle around designing something, save it as a file, and send it to the machinery. A gun, any gun, can be stored like that.

I seem to recall reading Zastava's CZ 99 was designed from the get-go like that, and they licensed the specs out to South African and Israeli companies, who produced identical firearms.

I'm sure someone at FN has uploaded all the HP data to a file set, and they have it archived etc. They're probably stopping current production because the new guns aren't moving, and the supply chain is backing up (and they're not getting any money).
Rather than slash prices, they're "discontinuing" the gun, so what's left on the shelves will become a "get one while you can" item that will move; and every so often they'll crank out a batch of "classic" items. This way, they can get away with keeping the price high on this model, instead of basically cutting the price in half to compete with CZ and Beretta.

If the necessary re-tool could be done in an afternoon & cost a couple thousand bucks, it'd be worth the endeavor, but it's not that simple, nor is re-tooling for limited production any kind of viable solution whatever.

One could legitimately assume that the people at FN who KNOW what's involved have balanced out the options, and that's why production has ceased.
Denis

FN has missed opportunities with the HP. They never came out with a "carry version", even though they made a run of Aluminum framed guns for a European police department. A clone maker made "Detective" models with a shortened slide and barrel. FN never used either on commercial models. The adjustable sights have been odd, to say the least. They had an improved magazine safety on the target model (which again are rare and expensive) that they never implemented on regular production HPs. When the 75th Anniversary came around, all they did was engrave something minor on the slide instead of something with a more retro look and fancy engraving more like the Renaissance models. Despite having a target model, they never came out with a run-n-gun competition model. And let's not talk about how hit or miss the triggers can be.

I hope someone does come out with a good clone.

I'd like to see a SIMILAR design using a trigger bar inside the frame rather than the darned sear bar (or whatever it's called). The Hi-Power is a good size and good-enough capacity, but the connection between the trigger and hammer is awkward, to say the least. An inside the frame trigger bar/bars might force them to make the frame a bit wider, negating one of the more-positive features of the design (which is its narrowness.)

Walt Sherrill said:

I'd like to see a SIMILAR design using a trigger bar inside the frame rather than the darned sear bar (or whatever it's called). The Hi-Power is a good size and good-enough capacity, but the connection between the trigger and hammer is awkward, to say the least. An inside the frame trigger bar/bars might force them to make the frame a bit wider, negating one of the more-positive features of the design (which is its narrowness.)

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I put a BHPand Shield slide back to back... or slide to slide I guess, and they are the same width (I didn't use a micrometer).

Amazing, imo

I'm not sure that comparing a single stack gun to a double stack one will give us any viable information.

Danez71 said:

I put a BHPand Shield slide back to back... or slide to slide I guess, and they are the same width (I didn't use a micrometer).

Mizar said:

I'm not sure that comparing a single stack gun to a double stack one will give us any viable information.

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You're both right, in a way...

The Hi-Power slide is as narrow as the Shield. That is amazing.

The width of the slide can be almost the same for a double-stack as for a single-stack gun, but the frame (at least in part) would have to be wider in most single-stack guns (to accomodate the wider magazine.

The single-stack Star Firestar guns (in 9mm), for example, have almost the same slides as the double-stack Star Firestar Plus models, but the frames of the Plus models are quite a bit wider to accommodate the wider double-stack magazines.

I suspect that a Hi-Power frame would have to be still wider if a different trigger- to-hammer mechanism was moved into the HI-Power frame rather than being left mostly in slide as it is, now.

Well, the HP is very slim in the slide, and the grip is quite well suited to smaller hands. The same can not be said of but a few modern double stack 9s or above.

I believe you meant that the double stack frame would be wider compared to a single stack - which is exactly the problem. On a concealed carry gun the slide thickness/length is the least of our worries, but the fat and long grip is.

I suspect that a Hi-Power frame would have to be still wider if a different trigger- to-hammer mechanism was moved into the HI-Power frame rather than being left mostly in slide as it is, now.

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The sear lever serves a double purpose (tipple on Mk. III) - it acts also as a disconnector. It's a very simple design, with few parts, but the trigger pull is suffering from that. FN made an attempt to rectify it with the Competition model by moving the sear lever's pivot point about 0.3" to the back. Reports are that those models had quite decent triggers, but I haven't handled one so I cannot give an opinion. Me personally, I don't have a problem with the trigger - it's heavy, yes, but for my tastes it's perfect for a carry/service gun.

Just a quick deviation - the BHP is not widely used in competition not only because of the trigger, or being fragile, but because it's a 9mm SA pistol. In IPSC, and USPCA also I believe, that puts it out of Production division and if one desires, he must compete in other divisions with bigger caliber guns (higher power factor). And on top of that there are far better handling guns in .40 S&W than the Browning, so...

Mizar said:

I believe you meant that the double stack frame would be wider compared to a single stack - which is exactly the problem. On a concealed carry gun the slide thickness/length is the least of our worries, but the fat and long grip is.

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I would differ here. The big blocky slides of many modern double stacks are a substantial portion of the overall bulk. And it is not just the print profile, it makes a difference when sitting down in chairs etc if the pistol is worn at say 5 o'clock. Of course some of this depends on your physical body build. On my Mk3 I replaced the relatively thick grip panels with some Ted Yost micartas similar to Craig Spegels. They reduce the grip size even more.

...some Ted Yost micartas similar to Craig Spegels

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Can you please take a picture of those grips? Except for the Navidrex, which are too thin for my taste (and hands), I could not find any micarta/G10 Spegel-ish type grips - I finally settled for the checkered Pachmayr G10, that are basically a ripoff of VZs and Nighthawks.

I don't know how they compare to some others, but I like the Hogue G10 checkered grips. They are available, thin, and fit my hands better than the factory polymers and way better than the factory walnut.
https://www.hogueinc.com/browning-hi-power-checkered-g10-black

A sad day indeed. I hope that the Argentines and Bulgarians step up and make more clones. I may be wrong but I hear India is still manufacturing their Hi-Power clone. They could probably make a good nickel (or Rupee) if they decided to export them here. I love my 30 year-old Mk II BHP. Still my favorite handgun after all these years.

CornCod

[QUOTE I love my 30 year-old Mk II BHP. Still my favorite handgun after all these years.][/QUOTE]

My sentiment exactly!

98bluewave said:

Well, best I remember the tub was about the size of a dish pan and it was pretty well filled with scrap Hi Power parts. The gun range doesn't have a website but you can reach them at 254-968-8986.

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1. No offense to Stephenville.........but how the heck does a gunsmith in Stephenville, TX get that many Hi Powers in for repair that he accumulates a dish pan full of scrap Hi Power parts?
2. I've never heard of any gunsmith or custom pistol maker who specializes in HP's in Stephenville.....so that discounts the idea that he's replacing factory parts with custom fitted ones.
3. In fact, the gunsmiths I know report RARELY working on a Hi Power, much less accumulating a dishpan full of parts.

I think your gunsmith friend is someone I wouldn't trust to replace a set of grips on a Hi Power.

I examined good one in 9x19 with aluminum alloy frame. Not a bad gun with only problem being slide lock lever has to be engaged when carrying the gun in "hot" condition. This safety is needed by most old military pistols with exception of PPK and Walther P38. As combat pistol it is inferior to modern design like the Glock that has manual safety mechanism built into the trigger unit. The ability to pull out the gun aim and press the trigger w/o disengaging safety could actually save someones life especially in stressful situation.

^^

PabloJ said:

I examined good one in 9x19 with aluminum alloy frame. Not a bad gun with only problem being slide lock lever has to be engaged when carrying the gun in "hot" condition. This safety is needed by most old military pistols with exception of PPK and Walther P38. As combat pistol it is inferior to modern design like the Glock that has manual safety mechanism built into the trigger unit. The ability to pull out the gun aim and press the trigger w/o disengaging safety could actually save someones life especially in stressful situation.

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Maybe it's a terminology issue, but what you described as a slide lock lever is the safety lever. You can't engage the slide lock on a BHP or any single-action pistol when the slide closed. You don't understand or simply don't like single-action pistols, and that's OK, but your dislike doesn't mean that design in innately flawed or fundamentally non-modern. It's just different.

All single-action pistols, if carried with a round chambered and the hammer (or striker mechanism) cocked, should have the SAFETY engaged -- to prevent an unintended (negligent or accidental) discharge. Carrying a single-action pistol with the safety engaged doesn't make the gun less safe -- just the opposite. And disengaging the safety mechanism need not take any longer before the gun is ready to fire -- as the safety can be disengaged as it is brought on target. You train to use the gun you carry, not to deal with all possible gun-handling possibilities.

Glock's manual safety mechanism doesn't prevent a negligent discharge if someone pulls the trigger when they shouldn't or an accidental discharge if something falls into the holster while the gun is being holstered. The Glock has other internal mechanisms that DO prevent an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped and hits barrel down against a hard surface -- but so do most other firearms. Negligent (or accidental) discharges are arguably just AS LIKELY with a Glock as with any other gun -- and some say MORE likely.

There are after-market external safeties available for Glocks, and Brownells sells one. Do a search search and you'll be surprised by the number of such mechanisms available.

Good gun handling practices should make any gun equally safe whether a Hi-Power, a Glock, or a SAA Colt.

Walt Sherrill said:

You're critical of the gun but clearly don't understand what you saw. You confused the slide lock lever with the safety lever. You can't engage the slide lock on a BHP or any single-action pistol when the slide closed. The slide lock can only be engaged when the slide is pulled to the rear (when it then aligns with a notch in the slide, so that spring-loaded slide lock lever can move up and lock the slide to the rear.)

All single-action pistols, if carried with a round chambered and the hammer cocked, should have the SAFETY LEVER engaged -- to prevent an unintended (negligent or accidental) discharge. That lever can also be engaged when the hammer is down, but that is unnecessary. Having to carry a single-action pistol with the safety lever engaged doesn't make the gun less safe. Just the opposite. Doing this need not take any longer before the gun is ready to fire -- as the safety can be disengaged as it is brought on target.

Glock's manual safety mechanism doesn't prevent a negligent discharge if someone pulls the trigger when they shouldn't or someone lets something fall into the holster while the gun is being holstered. (All sorts of horror stories on the 'net about LEOs who have done that over the years.) The Glock trigger safety and other internal mechanisms DO prevent an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped and hits barrel down against a hard surface. Negligent (or accidental) discharges are AS LIKELY with a Glock as with any other gun -- and some say MORE likely. Good gun handling practices should make any gun equally safe whether a Hi-Power, a Glock, or a SAA Colt.

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The mo is same as my Colt 1911 except the gun doesn't have grip safety. The Glock is simpler to operate and simpler is better especially when one is in a stressful situation. The biggest problem for FN with P35 is expense of production which in practical terms means less profit per unit sold.

You replied before I finished editing -- I was trying to be more accomodating in my response. You may want to edit your response, as well. (That doesn't mean your comments are less valid, but the quotes don't work.)

Mizar said:

Can we refrain from putting Browning Hi-Power and Glock in the same sentence, please?

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Yeah, right?
IMO, FN should feel honored; inasmuch as so much has been borrowed from the original design
of the Hi-Power by so many contemporary models. A large segment of the competition
is pistols like the CZ75, for instance.