Antiqued Guns

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I am in total agreement. It seems to me that most of these folks might be re-enactors or into CAS. I would think that re-enactors would pretty much prefer pristine firearms as they would have appeared in the day. As an example, show me an original Colt 1851 Navy manufactured just prior to the ACW as it appeared in 1861, and it would probably show little wear or abuse.

That's my thought as well. If you could go back in time and show an antiqued gun to a mid 19th century gun enthusiast, he'd probably think you a fool for what looks like obvious neglect. To each his own, but if I'm going to shoot guns like they did in the 1860's, I'd like them to look like they did in the 1860's, as much as possible.
 
To each his own but guns on the frontier did not get regular care and probably looked pretty beat up after a few uses. This lack of care was probably more from the lack of resources then neglect or from anything else.

Look through the work books of some of the early gunsmiths and you'll find a lot of rifles being returned for refreshing or the recutting of the lands and grooves in the barrel. .
 
Lets face it, the Italian do a sorry job with the appearance of most of their reproductions. They often have a ton of flaws, sometimes looking barely like the original gun they're trying to represent. They simply are not passionate enough about having a close reproduction. By and large, they do not care about shooting, firearms ownership, or history. They make them in Italy because it's a lot cheaper to make them there and there is a market for reproduction guns, they don't make them because they actually care about the hobby. That is why they have so many visual issues and why so many want them defarded. It's just to fix what the Italians could care less about, and to make them closer to ACTUAL reproductions so the average buyer can feel that much closer to history.

I beg to differ. If you have access to a copy of Swayze's Colt '51 Navies you will see a plethora of different types of pistols, grip styles, barrels, and cylinders. Some of you folks seem to think that there is a cookie cutter Colt 1851 Navy, and that anything other than that in your imagination does not fit. That is not fact.

Lets face it: Pietta does a fine job with replicas. So does Uberti. They have Italian proof marks, date codes, BP only marks, and manufacturer marks. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or defarb it. Your choice.

If you buy an "original" pistol online you run the risk of a faux gun, Many people on GB and other auction sites have no clue what they are offering.

Just my $.02 worth.

Jim
 
This one, I know breechloader, but built in 1927, look how beat up or antiqued this one is and had the benefit of modern care. Just think of a 73 Winchester riding in a saddle scabbard all day and all night long, what would it look like? Probably a lot like this or worse than this Winchester.

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Guns kept indoors most likely retained a new-ish appearance. But as for guns carried in holsters or saddle scabbards ... I suspect that duststorms, rain, friction, black powder residue trapped between gun and (occasionally-)wet leather, etc. took their toll in a few short years. I do doubt that these guns looked 150 years old, but they most certainly had finish wear, some grip/stock dents, and quite likely some light pitting and a gray-blue patina.
 
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That's my thought as well. If you could go back in time and show an antiqued gun to a mid 19th century gun enthusiast, he'd probably think you a fool for what looks like obvious neglect. To each his own, but if I'm going to shoot guns like they did in the 1860's, I'd like them to look like they did in the 1860's, as much as possible.
Then what you need to do is buy only 2nd and 3rd generation Colt's and have them refinished like they were in the 1860's. If we're going to split hairs and pick nits, let's go all the way. No single action since before WWII has been finished like the original 19th century guns, except USFA's Pre-war model. There was no hot salt blue in the 1860's. No Italian replica has authentic finishes. You're gonna need about a $500-$600 refinish job to make it truly look like the real thing. Buying a new Colt SAA doesn't get you all the way there either.

Let's also be real about wear. Those old guns got most of their wear in the first 20yrs of their lives. Not the last 50yrs. If you showed up in California in 1880 with a shiny new Colt, folks would figure you for an eastern greenhorn.

So what is your opinion of buying old, pitted and finishless Colt's? Are they not authentic because they exhibit 150yrs of wear? I really don't care what folks like but some of the reasons I hear when it comes to artificially aged guns just make no sense. Not to mention that no one is requiring you to buy one. Or that "to age or not to age" is not a question asked in the OP.


Most artificially antiqued guns I have seen, especially the factory jobs like CraigC shows, have had the finish chemically stripped or discolored.
But they don't have any wear marks from handling or holstering.
They are pitted and dinged, not just stripped.


Lets face it, the Italian do a sorry job with the appearance of most of their reproductions. They often have a ton of flaws, sometimes looking barely like the original gun they're trying to represent. They simply are not passionate enough about having a close reproduction. By and large, they do not care about shooting, firearms ownership, or history. They make them in Italy because it's a lot cheaper to make them there and there is a market for reproduction guns, they don't make them because they actually care about the hobby. That is why they have so many visual issues and why so many want them defarded. It's just to fix what the Italians could care less about, and to make them closer to ACTUAL reproductions so the average buyer can feel that much closer to history.
Sorry but this is just not true at all, in any way, shape form or fashion. You really need to educate yourself on Aldo Uberti and why he started his business. The Italians do a phenomenal job building guns that American makers don't see fit to even bother with. No, they are not perfect but most are excellent representations of the originals, well made, well finished and affordable.

Most of "defarbing" entails removing proof marks, which are required by law and have been for many years and liability markings like "blackpowder only" that only exist because we live in a world of morons.
 
Yes, guns were abused even when new, but those guns probably didn't make it to our time looking like a gun that has been antiqued. Those guns would be discarded or redurbished, then perhaps gracefully aged or beat to hell again. If I were a shootist back in the mid 1800s, my gun would look nice. Probably why I would want the same today unless it is an actual antique.
 
Then what you need to do is buy only 2nd and 3rd generation Colt's and have them refinished like they were in the 1860's. If we're going to split hairs and pick nits, let's go all the way. No single action since before WWII has been finished like the original 19th century guns, except USFA's Pre-war model. There was no hot salt blue in the 1860's. No Italian replica has authentic finishes. You're gonna need about a $500-$600 refinish job to make it truly look like the real thing. Buying a new Colt SAA doesn't get you all the way there either.

Let's also be real about wear. Those old guns got most of their wear in the first 20yrs of their lives. Not the last 50yrs. If you showed up in California in 1880 with a shiny new Colt, folks would figure you for an eastern greenhorn.

So what is your opinion of buying old, pitted and finishless Colt's? Are they not authentic because they exhibit 150yrs of wear? I really don't care what folks like but some of the reasons I hear when it comes to artificially aged guns just make no sense. Not to mention that no one is requiring you to buy one. Or that "to age or not to age" is not a question asked in the OP.



They are pitted and dinged, not just stripped.



Sorry but this is just not true at all, in any way, shape form or fashion. You really need to educate yourself on Aldo Uberti and why he started his business. The Italians do a phenomenal job building guns that American makers don't see fit to even bother with. No, they are not perfect but most are excellent representations of the originals, well made, well finished and affordable.

Most of "defarbing" entails removing proof marks, which are required by law and have been for many years and liability markings like "blackpowder only" that only exist because we live in a world of morons.

Okay, they do a good job on the Colts. But they make a LOT of other guns than the Colts. Really I'm not picking on any one Italian outfit specifically, and at the end of the day, they do tend to work (for the most part). Pedersoli has got to be the worst in this regard. So the Italians can do Colts... so what? They butcher a lot of muskets, single shot pistols, plenty of other stuff. But I know the rootin' tootin' cowboy action shootin' guys mainly only buy the Colts and Remingtons which is what the spaghetti eaters do best.
 
This one, I know breechloader, but built in 1927, look how beat up or antiqued this one is and had the benefit of modern care. Just think of a 73 Winchester riding in a saddle scabbard all day and all night long, what would it look like? Probably a lot like this or worse than this Winchester.

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That is a beautiful Model 12!

My Dad had one almost exactly like it in 16 Gauge, full choke. You are definitely bringing back memories!
 
Yes, guns were abused even when new, but those guns probably didn't make it to our time looking like a gun that has been antiqued. Those guns would be discarded or redurbished, then perhaps gracefully aged or beat to hell again. If I were a shootist back in the mid 1800s, my gun would look nice. Probably why I would want the same today unless it is an actual antique.

Well what if you were a bandito or desperado out on the rio grande? Or a cowboy in search of fortune out on the trail?

You're "shootist" pistol might not looks so dapper.
 
Yes, guns were abused even when new, but those guns probably didn't make it to our time looking like a gun that has been antiqued. Those guns would be discarded or redurbished, then perhaps gracefully aged or beat to hell again. If I were a shootist back in the mid 1800s, my gun would look nice. Probably why I would want the same today unless it is an actual antique.
I'm not talking about abuse. I'm talking about USE. Not spending most of their time in a climate controlled gun safe, only taken out once or twice a month to the range, shot and then immediately broken down and cleaned. I'm talking about spending all day, every day in a leather holster that may or may not be fitted. Riding outdoors, before climate control was even invented. Exposed to rain, snow, dust, dirt, blood and horse sweat. Potentially a long way from a good cleaning after being fired. Decades before smokeless powder, let alone CLP. While they are the objects of our adoration today, back then they were merely tools. Like a Glock today. The original guns that are still pristine, were rarely if ever used. The original guns we see that are pitted, have worn out parts and pitted bores are the ones that rode the trail. If you know your history, you know that the original cavalry Colt SAA's were not that old when returned and refitted into Artillery models.


Okay, they do a good job on the Colts. But they make a LOT of other guns than the Colts. Really I'm not picking on any one Italian outfit specifically, and at the end of the day, they do tend to work (for the most part). Pedersoli has got to be the worst in this regard. So the Italians can do Colts... so what? They butcher a lot of muskets, single shot pistols, plenty of other stuff. But I know the rootin' tootin' cowboy action shootin' guys mainly only buy the Colts and Remingtons which is what the spaghetti eaters do best.
I don't know what grudge you have against Pedersoli but your assessment of the Italian gunmaking industry is just patently false and your "spaghetti eater" comment is rather crude.

Anything mass produced today has to be adapted to mass production. The guns aren't made the same way or in the same political climate. If you want authenticity, you need to look beyond $1000 Pedersoli's to the $3000 and up custom market.


I am in total agreement. It seems to me that most of these folks might be re-enactors or into CAS. I would think that re-enactors would pretty much prefer pristine firearms as they would have appeared in the day. As an example, show me an original Colt 1851 Navy manufactured just prior to the ACW as it appeared in 1861, and it would probably show little wear or abuse.
You really think that a Union cavalry Colt issued at the beginning of the War of Northern Aggression would look the same at the end? Better think again.
 
Thank You Expat Alaska!!!! :)

And I'll bet the house that your Dad's 16 gauge was slick as melted butter like this one.
 
Few people love their guns as much as I do. I do not see refinishing or antiquing as abuse. Antiquing is simply a way to make a gun unique to you. I have never liked engraving on a gun... just a personal preference. I don't like gold inlay; I'd rather put gold on my wife since she appreciates it. R. L. Wilson's book, Steel Canvas contains no guns I covet. I'm old and used and look it, and some (not all) of my guns look like me.

Cowboy action shooting is a fantasy pastime, pretending mostly that we are the cowboy actors from the western movies we enjoyed as kids. Most western movie guns do not look new. If you just don't get it, that's ok. You don't have to.

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Ah I don't know.

I think for these western style guns, a little "character" does 'em good. Looks like a gun that was good to "ride the river with" as it were, like something some bandito or desperado had tucked in their sash as they crossed the Rio Grande...
 
I missed something. Depending on the time frame...i.e. CW or exploring out west, to me dictated some of the treatment and or attention the "life saver" got.
To us today it is a hobby, a sport an enjoyment. My next meal or next breath does not depend on that gun. Think about getting on a horse, covered wagon, stagecoach and striking off from Richmond Va. to the area 1000 to 1500 miles away that had not even been settled yet. It was uncivilized back then. I think I would keep my firearm(s) in great condition, since my life could should or would depend on it. What do you pack to take on such a trip? Who do you trust? Sleep on the way....where? Eat where and what? Gun involved in any of that?

I think and from what I have seen, read, and heard from the Italian maker Pedersoli......they really do care and are trying. They have for sure won a lot of world class shooting metals with their products and are truly and rightly proud of the fact. Google it. I like mine, glad to have them. Want more of them. Would love to go to their factory. Go to YouTube and search Pedersoli factory.

They cleaned them with what they could get and more importantly when they could or where they could get it. They packed around lead and made their own balls. We go on line or call and order it delivered to our door.

"Excellent job. Looks like something you'd find tucked in the sash of some bandito down on the Rio Grande! That's what I'm talking about, THAT, THAT RIGHT THERE, is why antiqued and defarbed repros are badass."

Agreed, but the vaquero may have been only trying to keep the only weapon he acquired by whatever means functioning or service himself better. A lot of people adjusted a lot of guns.
Mis dos centavos
 
I missed something. Depending on the time frame...i.e. CW or exploring out west, to me dictated some of the treatment and or attention the "life saver" got.
To us today it is a hobby, a sport an enjoyment. My next meal or next breath does not depend on that gun. Think about getting on a horse, covered wagon, stagecoach and striking off from Richmond Va. to the area 1000 to 1500 miles away that had not even been settled yet. It was uncivilized back then. I think I would keep my firearm(s) in great condition, since my life could should or would depend on it. What do you pack to take on such a trip? Who do you trust? Sleep on the way....where? Eat where and what? Gun involved in any of that?

I think and from what I have seen, read, and heard from the Italian maker Pedersoli......they really do care and are trying. They have for sure won a lot of world class shooting metals with their products and are truly and rightly proud of the fact. Google it. I like mine, glad to have them. Want more of them. Would love to go to their factory. Go to YouTube and search Pedersoli factory.

They cleaned them with what they could get and more importantly when they could or where they could get it. They packed around lead and made their own balls. We go on line or call and order it delivered to our door.

"Excellent job. Looks like something you'd find tucked in the sash of some bandito down on the Rio Grande! That's what I'm talking about, THAT, THAT RIGHT THERE, is why antiqued and defarbed repros are badass."

Agreed, but the vaquero may have been only trying to keep the only weapon he acquired by whatever means functioning or service himself better. A lot of people adjusted a lot of guns.
Mis dos centavos

Yeah that's true. I see your point.
 
Lets face it, the Italian do a sorry job with the appearance of most of their reproductions. They often have a ton of flaws, sometimes looking barely like the original gun they're trying to represent. They simply are not passionate enough about having a close reproduction. By and large, they do not care about shooting, firearms ownership, or history. They make them in Italy because it's a lot cheaper to make them there and there is a market for reproduction guns, they don't make them because they actually care about the hobby. That is why they have so many visual issues and why so many want them defarded. It's just to fix what the Italians could care less about, and to make them closer to ACTUAL reproductions so the average buyer can feel that much closer to history.
There are certain laws that must be adhered to. For our protection as well as theirs. Some of the locations are dictated by the government of that country.

You purchased a battery for your vehicle that has no markings whatsoever? Have a problem 2 days later....like the song..who you gonna call?
Proved what with what???
 
There are certain laws that must be adhered to. For our protection as well as theirs. Some of the locations are dictated by the government of that country.

You purchased a battery for your vehicle that has no markings whatsoever? Have a problem 2 days later....like the song..who you gonna call?
Proved what with what???

Yeah you and Craig are probably right. I was a little hard on the Italians. They do make pretty good guns all things considered.
 
So if one had a '58 Remy, how could one get a nice antiqued look on to it? Can I send it off to someone?
I don't know of any companies who do antiquing, to get it to a basic lightly worn level it's not too hard. If I had a gun that I just wanted a worn finish on I'd rub it down with steel wool to get most of the raw steel showing, then just use some mustard or plum brown to give it some character in some areas. If you're wanting something as worn as my walker I may be posting a tutorial here, but first I need to find a Walker to buy!
 
Speaking only for myself, I have never removed any markings from any firearm I have owned. To me, defarbing is intent to conceal or defraud. It is not part of my refinishing or antiquing process. One of the advantages of being a shooter rather than a collector is I'm not vulnerable to mistaking a defarbed gun for an original; I'm not interested in owning an original!
 
Speaking only for myself, I have never removed any markings from any firearm I have owned. To me, defarbing is intent to conceal or defraud. It is not part of my refinishing or antiquing process. One of the advantages of being a shooter rather than a collector is I'm not vulnerable to mistaking a defarbed gun for an original; I'm not interested in owning an original!
You might want to hear what Duelist1954 has to say about the Lemat he had defarbed by Lodgewood:



I think your comment is misplaced at best and possibly downright offensive. That's a pretty distasteful blanket statement right there. Are you saying Duelist1954, a highly respected gun writer and video producer, intends to "conceal or defraud" with his LeMat?

See how that can be a slippery slope?
 
He has his standards, I have mine.

If you buy a gun from me, you will never have a question about what you are buying.
 
He has his standards, I have mine.

If you buy a gun from me, you will never have a question about what you are buying.
It's simple to tell a defarbed gun from an original. The originals have the original markings, defarbs have none...
 
Then what you need to do is buy only 2nd and 3rd generation Colt's and have them refinished like they were in the 1860's. If we're going to split hairs and pick nits, let's go all the way. No single action since before WWII has been finished like the original 19th century guns, except USFA's Pre-war model. There was no hot salt blue in the 1860's. No Italian replica has authentic finishes. You're gonna need about a $500-$600 refinish job to make it truly look like the real thing. Buying a new Colt SAA doesn't get you all the way there either.

Let's also be real about wear. Those old guns got most of their wear in the first 20yrs of their lives. Not the last 50yrs. If you showed up in California in 1880 with a shiny new Colt, folks would figure you for an eastern greenhorn.

So what is your opinion of buying old, pitted and finishless Colt's? Are they not authentic because they exhibit 150yrs of wear? I really don't care what folks like but some of the reasons I hear when it comes to artificially aged guns just make no sense. Not to mention that no one is requiring you to buy one. Or that "to age or not to age" is not a question asked in the OP.



They are pitted and dinged, not just stripped.



Sorry but this is just not true at all, in any way, shape form or fashion. You really need to educate yourself on Aldo Uberti and why he started his business. The Italians do a phenomenal job building guns that American makers don't see fit to even bother with. No, they are not perfect but most are excellent representations of the originals, well made, well finished and affordable.

Most of "defarbing" entails removing proof marks, which are required by law and have been for many years and liability markings like "blackpowder only" that only exist because we live in a world of morons.

Our YouTube friend in Eastern Europe showed how an Unerti cylinder functioned and was quite accurate in dimensions with an original Colt. Can't get much better than that.
 
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