new to trap shooting... need all the help I can get

v35 said:

I have heard I'm not supposed to sight down the barrel as I would a rifle. I'm supposed to "point" instead of "aim" but that just doesn't make any sense to me. What does that mean?

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I know a lot of people say that but I've never liked this description. I also have a lot of issue with the "traditional" explanation that you squeeze a rifle trigger so you don't disturb the sights, but you quickly pull the shotgun trigger because apparently it doesn't matter. I think a lot of this "wisdom" is perpetuated by rifle shooters who don't shoot a lot of shotgun and just think of it as a claymore on a stick.

Thinking in rifle terms, the front bead is like your front sight, but your EYE is the rear sight. The relationship between where your eye and your front bead are determines where your point of aim will be compared to your point of impact. It is imperitive that your eye be in exactly the same place on the gun every time you mount.
Think of how when using a red dot on a rifle, when you move your head, the dot moves too. If you have an AR with a red dot sight, flip up only the front sight and mount the rifle, then start moving your head to different positions on the stock. Note how the red dot (actual point of impact) moves while your perception of the front sight (think shotgun bead) stays almost the same. On a rifle you have the rear sight to force your head to the same place every time, or you have a red dot to correct for any error. On a shotgun you have nothing, so you have to make sure you're in the same spot every time.

This is why a lot of serious trap shooters put money into custom stocks - it makes it much easier to get a comfortable and repeatable head position on the gun. Also adjustable combs on competition guns can be raised, which will in turn raise the point of impact relative to the point of aim. Just like adding elevation to the rear sight on a rifle.

The center bead can be used as a reference for lining up, but isn't much use after that. When I mount my gun, I get settled, look at the beads to make sure I am lined up (not canted or off to the side) and then focus down range. At this point I know that if my head stays in exactly the same place on the stock (in relation to the bead) I can look over the bead and know exactly where my shot will go (note my competition shotguns are set up to shoot high, so looking over the bead means I'm looking at my impact zone). This comes with practice but it really helps to pattern your shotgun so you know where it really is shooting. Sometimes when shooting clay targets you can see where the wad flys and get an approximation of where you missed.

And on the trigger, squeeze it, don't jerk. The same fundamental marksmanship rules apply to all types of triggers.



Beyond that, next time you go to the range, see if you can get a trap to yourself and lock it down to throw only one type of target, and then shoot that target from all 5 positions. This will help you figure out your leads. Alternatively you can go to a skeet field and just shoot from the number 7 station, low house only, and get a better idea of where your gun is shooting.

Make sure you're using the right choke. I would probably recommend a Mod to start off with, but if you're really fast on the target coming out of the house, you may want to back off to a light mod or maybe even an IC. On the other hand, if you're slow to the target you may want to shoot an IM.

On rhythm, shoot YOUR game. If the group is moving too fast, take a breath and make sure you're ready before you call for the bird. This is one place where shooting with a team helps. The group eventually falls into a rhythm where everyone is comfortable, and then you stay there.

Once you figure out the leads from every station and every target, American trap really just becomes a game of who can concentrate and consistently hit those targets. State level and higher competitions will usually have several people shooting 100/100, and missing a single target can usually be the difference between a win and a loss.

One final point. There are people out there who treat shooting like golf. They buy the coolest and most expensive toys but don't put in the work to get good. On the other hand there are also people who are good and buy the expensive guns because they're designed to stand up to the high round counts that are found in competitive shooting. You shouldn't discount someone because they're using good gear, just like you shouldn't discount someone because they're showing up in overalls and using a 40 year old pump shotgun. Watch how they shoot before drawing conclusions.

You're raising your head. Even if it the slightest bit.

v35 said:

mostly successful when I align the front and rear beads and aim slightly below the bird. However, sometimes I swear I use that exact same sight picture and miss anyway. Why?

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To be successful, you must have a gun that fits you.

Half of this game is 90pct mental.

Point your front foot parallel to sides of the trap house

Swing with your hips

Keep your head down til you see smoke out your barrel

If you miss, don't act like it's the first time ever.

Modify your loading and unloading on the line so the you fit into a rhythm with your squad.

Don't stop your swing til you see smoke

Good advice so far. You do not have to spend "many thousands of dollars" for a trap gun. Decent used trap guns are sold for $500 and up. If you like pump guns, a Remington 870 TB can be a good starting point. For a couple hundred more, a Winchester Model 12 trap can be purchased. Browning BT 99 single barrel trap in about the same price range. All good shotguns. It does not require a Krieghoff, or Ljutic or Perazzi to become a good trap shooter. My personal trap gun is a Winchester Model 12, with a custom made stock to fit ME. Shooting a trap gun will instantly improve your scores. I have seen it happen time after time. But the gun really does have to fit you well.

A trap gun will have a higher comb height on it to raise the point of impact. Thus, you will want to always be able to see the target, never cover it up. As already mentioned, stance is very important. Your feet should be shoulder width apart, with the heel of your forward foot about even with the toes of your rear foot. Both feet pointing forward, parallel to the shooting lane you are standing on. Keep your rear knee locked straight, and slightly bend your front knee forward. This will allow you to move side to side from your hips. Mount the gun to your cheek first and pull the butt firmly back into your shoulder pocket. Keep your check firm against the stock. Station 1, the muzzle should be slightly to the left of the outside left corner of the trap house and parallel to the ground. Station 2, muzzle pointing above the inside left corner of the trap house. Station 3, muzzle pointing above the center of the trap house. Station 4, muzzle pointing above the inside right corner of the trap house. Station 5, muzzle pointing above the outside corner of the trap house. Gun parallel to the ground for all stations. These positions will place you approximately in the middle of the arc that the targets will fly from each station, thus requiring an equal amount of swing either left or right depending on the exit angle of the target. Obviously, when a target flies at an angle, you will want to pull your muzzle through the target, getting slightly ahead of it and pull the trigger. The sharper the angle the distance ahead of the target will need to increase. Probably not as much as might think.

When you hit a target, make note of where it was hit. If the target literally explodes, every variable was perfect. If a chip or two flies from the back of the target, you were slightly behind and need to increase the lead. Conversely, if a chip or two flies from the front of the target, your lead was a bit too much. The same logic applies if chips come off the top or bottom of the target. Do not spend a lot of time over thinking all of this. Just make a quick mental note, and make appropriate adjustments on the next target. If you miss a bird, do NOT get mad, stomp your feet, or make any utterances, loud or otherwise. All that will accomplish is to distract other shooters and pretty much guarantee that you will miss the next bird. We all miss. It happens.

One of the best pieces of earlier advice was to practice by yourself on a locked down trap. That way, you can see what different leads can do for a particular target and angle. There have been times in the past where, for no apparent reason, I would start missing a particular target from a particular station. I would then go to a different trap and have the machine locked down on that particular angle, and start shooting at the target giving me a problem. Usually within a few shots, I would be back on track and discover that my swing had slowed down or gotten faster. Most often, I would shoot a total of 10 "problem" targets, and usually the last 5 were completely smoked.

Trap is a simple game that is full of angles, both up and down, and side to side. It may be simple, but it is not as easy as it looks. I hope that some of this information is useful for you, and wish you well.

Telekinesis said:

I know a lot of people say that but I've never liked this description. I also have a lot of issue with the "traditional" explanation that you squeeze a rifle trigger so you don't disturb the sights, but you quickly pull the shotgun trigger because apparently it doesn't matter. I think a lot of this "wisdom" is perpetuated by rifle shooters who don't shoot a lot of shotgun and just think of it as a claymore on a stick.

Thinking in rifle terms, the front bead is like your front sight, but your EYE is the rear sight. The relationship between where your eye and your front bead are determines where your point of aim will be compared to your point of impact. It is imperitive that your eye be in exactly the same place on the gun every time you mount.

This is why a lot of serious trap shooters put money into custom stocks - it makes it much easier to get a comfortable and repeatable head position on the gun. Also adjustable combs on competition guns can be raised, which will in turn raise the point of impact relative to the point of aim. Just like adding elevation to the rear sight on a rifle.

The center bead can be used as a reference for lining up, but isn't much use after that. When I mount my gun, I get settled, look at the beads to make sure I am lined up (not canted or off to the side) and then focus down range. At this point I know that if my head stays in exactly the same place on the stock (in relation to the bead) I can look over the bead and know exactly where my shot will go (note my competition shotguns are set up to shoot high, so looking over the bead means I'm looking at my impact zone). This comes with practice but it really helps to pattern your shotgun so you know where it really is shooting. Sometimes when shooting clay targets you can see where the wad flys and get an approximation of where you missed.

And on the trigger, squeeze it, don't jerk. The same fundamental marksmanship rules apply to all types of triggers.

Make sure you're using the right choke. I would probably recommend a Mod to start off with, but if you're really fast on the target coming out of the house, you may want to back off to a light mod or maybe even an IC. On the other hand, if you're slow to the target you may want to shoot an IM.

On rhythm, shoot YOUR game. If the group is moving too fast, take a breath and make sure you're ready before you call for the bird. This is one place where shooting with a team helps. The group eventually falls into a rhythm where everyone is comfortable, and then you stay there.

Once you figure out the leads from every station and every target, American trap really just becomes a game of who can concentrate and consistently hit those targets. State level and higher competitions will usually have several people shooting 100/100, and missing a single target can usually be the difference between a win and a loss.

One final point. There are people out there who treat shooting like golf. They buy the coolest and most expensive toys but don't put in the work to get good. On the other hand there are also people who are good and buy the expensive guns because they're designed to stand up to the high round counts that are found in competitive shooting. You shouldn't discount someone because they're using good gear, just like you shouldn't discount someone because they're showing up in overalls and using a 40 year old pump shotgun. Watch how they shoot before drawing conclusions.

Click to expand...

That is a very good post, sir! I was never very good at trap, but your same advice applies to skeet which I loved. Cheek weld to the buttstock was primary, and seeing the entire top of the barrel was of utmost concern. I never even used the center bead but mostly concerned myself with the muzzle and swinging the gun. One must have a good lead on a bird and NOT stop the gun, and I was taught to shoot with both eyes open.

To the OP, listen to the guy I quoted. He knows his stuff.

Jim

Trap is easy as long as you can shoot while the bird is still rising. then its just a matter of firing as you cover the bird and following through. It's the hard angles that give it the difficulty. That's where a little time at the Skeet range pays off. It will help with those hard right birds on Station 5 or hard lefts on Station 1. Point the gun at the very back left corner of the Traphouse on Station 1, halfway to the center of the back on 2, the middle on 3 , half way to the right side on 4 and the back right corner on 5. You will pick the birds up faster than held at shoulder height. Start at the 16 yard line with a Modified or IM choke. Only practice will tune you into how much lead and which direction s needed for which angles. My biggest problem is anticipating a hard right bird on 5, (or hard left on 1) and getting a straightaway, then overswinging it.
You made some good points v35. It's not the gun, it's the nut behind the trigger. We had a kid that worked at the Trap range I worked at that had a beat-up old single shot H&R, and he had a 23 avg.! A friend of mine from high school had a Perazzi, but shot a 15 avg. I shoot Trap with an 870 Wingmaster, and sometimes for fun, I put the 28" barrel on my Tactical Magnum and shoot a round; the looks I get are priceless. BTW, my favorite gun to shoot Trap with is the BT-99.

I am lucky enough to have a dedicated trap gun. I am a beginner also. I range from 18 to 22 out of 25. the two things that helped me the most was a middle bead and a rib that allows me to see the bird while following it.
... a magnetic sight on the front bead will give you a little float or space below the bird on a ribbed hunting barrel.
....see if you can find a full choked 30 inch hunting gun WITH A RIB. nobody wants them any more. steel shoot requirements and a 2 3/4 chamber doesn't work with steel shoot duck ammo of today. they are cheap, less than 300 used. rem and win sold a ton of them in the 70s.,,, add the middle bead and the taller magnetic front sight. have fun and grow with the sport. bob

I'll add my 2 cents. I'm far from an expert, but some say I'm full of... wisdom. Shotgun fit is important... critical in fact, if you call for the bird and then mount the gun, ISU style. In American trap, everyone except the showoffs mounts the gun and then calls for the bird. Fit ain't nearly so important, then, as long as you can find reasonable comfort and the comb doesn't slap you in recoil. So, mount the gun, look down the rib and verify your rear sight (I mean, eye) is left-right centered over the rib. How much of the bead you see will depend on the gun's construction: I've never used a gun with a middle bead, so I can't verify from experience if you're really supposed to sit the muzzle bead on top of the middle one, so that they appear to form a figure 8. I mostly use an Auto-5, a field gun, and I find that I do best with it if, when I mount it, I can't see any of the rib... just the bead sitting on the receiver hump. You'll just have to experiment. You might experiment more successfully shooting at a pattern board or a paper target.

Once you've got the "sight picture" sorted out, ignore it. Mount the gun, verify the sight picture (eye placement, amount of visible rib, bead orientation), and then don't move your head. Keep your head absolutely still. Call for the bird, follow it with your eyes, line up and shoot. Once you have verified the picture and frozen your head to the stock, from then on you must absolutely ignore the steel thingy out front. Keep your full attention on the bird, swivel around from the hips and shoot. Oh I forgot, put your weak hand as far out on the fore end as you can manage and point your finger along the barrel. Then as you swing to the target, fire when you feel your finger is pointing to the right place. It's done by instinct; this is what rifle shooters must (un)learn. You've been pointing at things since you were in diapers and you may not be aware of it but you've become amazingly good at it.

Use that lifetime of finger-pointing skill. Don't move your head. In fact once you call for the bird, you track it by moving your whole upper body as a unit, swiveling at the hips, moving like a robot. The only muscles that move independently are your eyes and trigger finger. This way you maintain the sight alignment while absolutely ignoring the gun.

Pattern your shotgun. Take a big piece of paper or go to the sporting goods store and buy
some shotgun patterning targets. Trap guns shoot high field guns shoot flat, or dead on.
If your gun shoots dead on at 40 yards you have to cover the bird as it rises. With a trap
gun you can hold just under the bird as it rises. Talk to some good trap shooters. They
will usually help you out.
Zeke

Dave McCrackens old 101 right ups here on THR helped me in a big way to become a better shotgunner years ago. I hate the "use the search button" response but his are truly worth a read. Rip Dave.

Col. Harrumph said:

I'll add my 2 cents. I'm far from an expert, but some say I'm full of... wisdom. Shotgun fit is important... critical in fact, if you call for the bird and then mount the gun, ISU style. In American trap, everyone except the showoffs mounts the gun and then calls for the bird. Fit ain't nearly so important, then, as long as you can find reasonable comfort and the comb doesn't slap you in recoil. So, mount the gun, look down the rib and verify your rear sight (I mean, eye) is left-right centered over the rib. How much of the bead you see will depend on the gun's construction: I've never used a gun with a middle bead, so I can't verify from experience if you're really supposed to sit the muzzle bead on top of the middle one, so that they appear to form a figure 8. I mostly use an Auto-5, a field gun, and I find that I do best with it if, when I mount it, I can't see any of the rib... just the bead sitting on the receiver hump. You'll just have to experiment. You might experiment more successfully shooting at a pattern board or a paper target.

Once you've got the "sight picture" sorted out, ignore it. Mount the gun, verify the sight picture (eye placement, amount of visible rib, bead orientation), and then don't move your head. Keep your head absolutely still. Call for the bird, follow it with your eyes, line up and shoot. Once you have verified the picture and frozen your head to the stock, from then on you must absolutely ignore the steel thingy out front. Keep your full attention on the bird, swivel around from the hips and shoot. Oh I forgot, put your weak hand as far out on the fore end as you can manage and point your finger along the barrel. Then as you swing to the target, fire when you feel your finger is pointing to the right place. It's done by instinct; this is what rifle shooters must (un)learn. You've been pointing at things since you were in diapers and you may not be aware of it but you've become amazingly good at it.

Use that lifetime of finger-pointing skill. Don't move your head. In fact once you call for the bird, you track it by moving your whole upper body as a unit, swiveling at the hips, moving like a robot. The only muscles that move independently are your eyes and trigger finger. This way you maintain the sight alignment while absolutely ignoring the gun.

Click to expand...

A good shooter can shoot an ill-fitting gun (I'll even add in with a bad trigger) better than a bad shooter can shoot a Kreighoff 3200 fit especially for them.

Yes, with field guns you don't want to see the rib. You want to fire as you pull through the bird and follow through.

I printed out Dave's shotgunning tips and hand them out every spring to the 4-H Trap shooters.

Armored farmer said:

Half of this game is 90pct mental.

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you sound like Yogi Berra.......

Find a NRA or ATA instructor. Get one on one. Learn both eyes open, focus on a distance where the bird will appear (gotta watch some first). Shoot a bunch of straightaway from station 3, straightaways. Then move one left. Then one right.
I start newbies at 3, no gun and throw five....just watch the flight. Five more pointing with your forend holding index finger. Five more having them point and say "bang" before bird reaches apex. Then five with unloaded gun, snapping dry before bird peaks. Finally five with loaded gun, firing "on the way up". Gotta get them on the rise.

Obviously nothing substitutes for practice, so do it.

I shoot trap for practice when it is not hunting season (and to avoid losing my mind). As such, I shoot my favorite hunting guns at the trap line. So while other trap shooters are whipping out specialty guns that cost thousands, I roll up with my Baikal 310 O/U and a bottom of the line Weatherby automatic (with the stylin' plastic stock), both in 20 gauge. The gun does not matter that much if you are a beginner, so don't sweat it.

What does matter and I had to learn:

- Make sure the gun (especially the stock) fits you. y cheapie O/U stock did not have enough rise in the comb, so I bought a beartooth kit that is basically a neoprene sleeve and a few pieces of foam. Under $20 and you can raise the comb height to the appropriate level. As a bonus, I don't get slapped when I shoot any more (not a big deal when I shoot 5 or 10 rounds in a day of hunting, but not fun in 5 rounds of trap).

- Don't look at the sights, look at the sky/target.

- Pattern the gun and figure out what choke is best. Having the right choke makes a huge difference. Spend time at the pattern board and try different chokes at the trap line to see what works. One gun's modified can be very different than another's.

- Make sure your stance is working for you. I do best when I have a moderately wide spread of my feet and I am leaning over the front foot with my center of gravity above the front knee.

- Ask the other shooters what you are doing wrong and listen to the most experienced. Some people will offer suggestions, others are too reserved/polite to blurt it out. Make sure you get the feedback and listen to it.

As an aside, I occasionally switch to a 12 gauge with a load bigger than an ounce a shot. After shooting 7/8 oz. 20 gauge loads, it kind of feels like cheating.

Lot's of good advice here. I started shooting trap four (five?) years ago or so. I use my Winchester 1300. Some days are better than others. When I practice, I can get 22-23/25 on a regular basis. Unfortunately, I don't get out as much as I like. Anyway, what helped me, was to pattern the gun and have someone spot for me a couple times when I was getting started. As has been suggested, much of the non-mental part of this game is muscle memory.

Darn few things are more satisfying than seeing that clay pigeon disappear in a puff of gray dust.