Pros/Cons of a Liability Form for a "friend" you were going to teach to shoot with your guns

Would you ever consider making someone you shoot with sign a liability form

  • If they were paying me, yes, if not, no

    Votes: 9 13.6%

  • I see the value in it, but too much hassle

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No, I don't see the need

    Votes: 46 69.7%

  • It wouldn't cover negligence, so why bother?

    Votes: 4 6.1%

  • Other - Explain below if you'd like

    Votes: 5 7.6%

  • I've done it before

    Votes: 2 3.0%
  • Total voters
    66
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MillennialGunslinger

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Just curious honestly. I see value in doing so, but it is a bit much, so I'm curious on what other people think.

If you were going to take a (not close) friend shooting, like a friend of a friend, or someone from work, etc; would you ever consider making them sign one of those typical liability forms? I ask this from the point of view that they have never shot a firearm, don't own a firearm and know nothing of firearms, and as such are relying on you for some basic training. As well as the fact that they would be shooting your guns. Probably especially this last point. Might also be worth taking into account that, given that you don't know them all that well, there might be legal or mental issues one is not aware of. Them marking or not a checkbox is a lot more socially acceptable than asking "are you addicted to anything?" or "are you a felon" before putting them in front of a firing line with your guns.

On one hand, the setbacks to doing so are minor (save for the hassle), and it might set the right mindset that this is something to take seriously (not just for social media pictures). On the other hand it is a bit unfriendly/unwelcoming, and someone is bound to argue that in case of negligence or gross negligence it makes no difference whatsoever. Every range I've been to makes you sign one covering them, so there might be some value in someone shooting your guns to sign something to disclaim you.

Dunno. Any thoughts?

Note: The whole purpose of a liability form is that everyone signs one regardless of the "feels" for that person. The idea is for whoever to have signed before you've got a chance to have an opinion on that person with firearms. Saying that you simply wouldn't take a reckless person to the range is a bit like saying "I don't wear a seat belt, because whenever I feel like the road is dangerous enough to need one, I simply don't drive". The idea is to provide protection as a habit for unforeseen circumstances. The whole point of an accident is that you didn't see it coming. You can take for granted that I wouldn't take someone to the range that I didn't feel safe around.
 
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Unless you hand them a defective gun or defective ammo, or give them bad instruction, I'm not sure what you'd be liable for.
 
Teaching a new person how to shoot is a dynamic situation, and if I got the willies enough about a person that I'd wish they'd signed a waiver, I'd pack it up right then and there.

A few gun enthusiast friends and I once had this issue with a non-gun-person when we went to a farm to shoot clays. This dude assured us that he had handled guns before and he was perfectly capable of conducting himself appropriately and safely. Half an hour in and, despite advising, explaining, and correcting him, he'd swept multiple people at least three times with the muzzle of a shotgun, habitually rested the muzzle on his foot, and his booger hook basically lived on the trigger. We told him he was done. No need for a waiver, and a waiver would not have changed anything.
 
I remember when young, we took a friend out to shoot tin cans.... We set a few up at the base of a small hill.... gave good instruction on how to hold, aim and squeeze off a round ... Our friend fives off 4 - 5 rounds of 22 auto and ask how he did.... my brothers beats me to reply, "don't worry herb, it was a small hill anyway" " we will just find a bigger hill" as he had missed everything including the hill.... it took couple months but he became a very good hunter and we had many a great hunt over the years..... i have a couple private ranges and still take newbies out..... just last winter i had one woman tell me no matter how hard she squeezes the gun (sig 380) she still cant make good hits..... she had confused squeezing the trigger and started squeezing the gun handle.....

sometimes the problem is us.... we have to start on square one..... and always remember some of these folks dont know squat..... go over everything..... just because they say that they have owned this gun for 20 years dont mean they know anything about it... i have never had anybody sign anything, but sure as hell take every precaution......
 
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I'm in agreement with most here. We should use our judgement whenever we agree to teach or coach someone. I have taught a good number of absolute novices. I pay attention to them when I'm teaching them and assess their ability to learn and follow directions. I've taught a bunch, from young folks as young as 10 years old to some in their 60's. Men, women, boys and girls. If I thought that they needed to sign a waiver, then I'm not the one to teach them.

So far there has only been one person that after 2 sessions, I just couldn't get her to listen and correct her bad habits. I had to ask her to stop and leave, and I never brought her back to the range again.
 
420Stainless said:
Unless you hand them a defective gun or defective ammo, or give them bad instruction, I'm not sure what you'd be liable for.
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In today's day and age, only God knows. I have CCW insurance for the same reason. Even though you do things "right", the other person's version might not be as sympathetic when money gets involved. Especially if that has to do with hospital bills. I don't really have anything in mind, but I'm sure there are plenty of horror stories out there. There are plenty of threads on this forum where a question about friends using a private range or things like that end up in everone saying "don't risk it" for liability reasons.

General Geoff said:
Teaching a new person how to shoot is a dynamic situation, and if I got the willies enough about a person that I'd wish they'd signed a waiver, I'd pack it up right then and there.
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I've taught people where in hindsight I've wondered if I was wasting my time since it didn't really seem like they were interested in anything more than pressing the trigger twice, but not really anyone I wish they had signed a waiver. I have however shot with people that I was absolutely glad I didn't have to take any responsibility for.

General Geoff said:
No need for a waiver, and a waiver would not have changed anything.
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If this is the general idea of everyone, it's probably a good thing. It's relieving that most don't seem to be extremely concerned with it.

dirtman said:
just last winter i had one woman tell me no matter how hard she squeezes the gun (sig 380) she still cant make good hits..... she had confused squeezing the trigger and started squeezing the gun handle.....
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:rofl: If it weren't dangerous as sin, it would be amusing to see someone try to use a 1911's grip safety as a trigger. Sure is the wrong post to say that out loud though. Oh well, some things are best left in the imagination.

dirtman said:
sometimes the problem is us.... we have to start on square one..... and always remember some of these folks dont know squat..... go over everything..... just because they say that they have owned this gun for 20 years dont mean they know anything about it... i have never had anybody sign anything, but sure as hell take every precaution......
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Definitely agree with this. I posted a few weeks back on this forum on a nice PDF I wrote for myself to make sure I go over everything in a methodical, logical manner. It's a bit easy to either forget to teach certain things, or to try to teach 3 or 4 different concepts at the same time just so you don't forget one.

shafter said:
If I thought someone might get hurt even with me coaching right next to them I wouldn't be at the range with them in the first place.
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Problem is somethings are only seen in hindsight. In any case, liability forms, seatbelts, helmets and all things of that nature get taken care of before any suspicion of actual risk occurs. I bet Jerry Miculek signs liability forms at every new range he visits just like the rest of us mortals.

GBExpat said:
If I felt that I needed to have such a waiver, I would not even go shooting with, much less teach, that friend/acquaintance.
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One of my best friends son is the type of person that is oblivious to the concept of "behind the line" during ceasefires, and has walked on to the range at least twice before the range was officially cold. Sometimes he tags along to shoot and it isn't anything I have a say in. A waiver would have nothing to do with that, but it certainly is a negligent discharge in the making.

mstreddy said:
I've taught a bunch, from young folks as young as 10 years old to some in their 60's.
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I wonder if anyone would feel different about a waiver should they be teaching someone's child (a minor). Even with dads permission, sometimes moms can get overzealous if something happens, or viceversa. Plenty of horror stories about "I didn't give permission" or "was never told about the risk" when child safety is concerned.

Anyway, it's pretty refreshing that the general mindset is "don't worry about it". I'll be happy to oblige.
 
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NOT LEGAL ADVICE

In many states, you'd be better served with an acknowledgement that shooting is inherently dangerous and involves an assumption of risk by all participants than something that purports to be a prospective waiver or release of rights.

If this sounds like gibberish, then you definitely need a lawyer to draft anything you want to try to create. You could create more problems than you solve with an amateur form.
 
ATLDave said:
NOT LEGAL ADVICE

In many states, you'd be better served with an acknowledgement that shooting is inherently dangerous and involves an assumption of risk by all participants than something that purports to be a prospective waiver or release of rights.

If this sounds like gibberish, then you definitely need a lawyer to draft anything you want to try to create. You could create more problems than you solve with an amateur form.
Click to expand...

But the question is, in your casual opinion, would you see any empirical value in doing such a thing?
 
NOT LEGAL ADVICE:

Without knowing a lot more, including your state, I couldn't tell you. And you'd have to pay me for actual advice! ;)

But, and this is NOT advice, I take a fair many new people shooting and don't use any such forms. I do tell them there's inherent risk. Maybe I would do something different in another state. Maybe not.

What I would not do is suggest that a layperson make up their own form for people to sign. It would be easy to cause problems. If you decide you need a form, pay to have a good one made.
 
IF you're taking them to a range that has their own waivers, and IF you are not a certified instructor, I don't see how you could be liable for an accident any more than anyone else there on the range.

If you're not certified and you're not a business than it doesn't mean squat that you are "giving them shooting advice". Now if you were physically guiding them (had partial control of the gun) when an accident occurred than that could be a different story.
 
Our range requires it if you bring a guest. Guests can come twice, but then must join if they want to keep coming. It only makes sense in sue happy Alabama to have the form required, and the range's yearly fee is low, so I don't have a problem with the only 2 free visits requirement. These days I can always make the longer trip and take someone to my property to shoot.
 
I wonder if anyone would feel different about a waiver should they be teaching someone's child (a minor). Even with dads permission, sometimes moms can get overzealous if something happens, or viceversa.
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I mentioned kids above. No, I don't feel any different. In all of the cases, at least one of the parents have been there as well.

Part of my process in teaching anyone about guns and shooting is to approach from a safety perspective first, then basic fundamentals of safe gun handling, then basic shooting skills, marksmanship, etc. I also stay right next to them until I observe that they are handling the gun, recoil, noise, flash, etc without any issues.

I bet Jerry Miculek signs liability forms at every new range he visits just like the rest of us mortals.
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More than likely he does, just as we all do whenever we go to a commercial range to shoot. It's the liability in using the facility with its inherent risks.


One of my best friends son is the type of person that is oblivious to the concept of "behind the line" during ceasefires, and has walked on to the range at least twice before the range was officially cold. Sometimes he tags along to shoot and it isn't anything I have a say in.
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Actually you do have a say -- by not shooting with that friend when his son is around. And if it raises questions with your best friend, then it's up to you to bring up the reason.

There are some folks that I avoid at the range and will not want to be near them.
 
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We board horses and have liability insurance for the boarders. We asked our insurance company about having our boarders sign a waiver and were told a waiver wasn't worth the paper it was written on. We were told that when it comes to a lawsuit it all depends on which judge and what kind of mood the judge was in on the day of the trial.
 
I've introduced lots of new shooters to the sport - both in informal settings and formal settings (NRA Instructor and Hunter Safety Instructor). I've never seen the need for a liability waiver and never used one. As something of an evangelist for the shooting sports, I try and be wary and not add unnecessary barriers to participation. The shooting sports already have enough barriers to participation (required training, paperwork, expenses, transportation, limited facilities.) I try and be that guy who says, "Just come shoot - all you gotta do is show up and pay attention." I do email most friends a few links on the gun safety rules and some simple fundamentals, we'll discuss gun safety, and I'll send 'em over to read the long list of range rules when we get to the range. But the whole process needs more fun and shooting and less paperwork, so I'm not inclined to add any.
 
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