The sad quality of Marlin firearms nowadays

SwampWolf said:

Some people have apparently come to expect shoddy workmanship from Marlin simply because, it's claimed, Marlin has a long history of selling rifles having mediocre quality. Just because you've always done it this way (which has not been my experience, by the way, in the case of Marlin) is no excuse for continuing to do it this way.

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Don't take it too far, I never said that. I said that they have never been top drawer for fit & finish, which is fine, because you're not paying for it. I don't expect a $400 Marlin to be finished like a $1200 Japanese Winchester or Browning. Just as I don't expect a $400 Ruger to be finished like a $3000 Freedom Arms. For all of recent memory, Marlin has cut corners on finish work, presumably to cut costs and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't expect too much. Methinks the market for such guns is much larger than that for similar guns that cost two or three times as much but shoddy ain't the word for it.

If you haven't seen less than perfect metal work on a Marlin of the last 20yrs, you haven't been paying much attention.

Marlin isn't Marlin anymore. The original factory, machinery and generations old workforce are gone. That was Marlin (JM). They got bought and production was moved to Remington who never made lever actions. Now theres suppose to be new machinery but the workers are still new to the lever action game. 2nd thing may just be a pet peeve of mine is the rise of the "Black Rifle". Not just ARs but the whole plastic stock, dull/ruff finish guns. They sell a ton of them. Guess what. We showed them they don't need to make nice finished wood and polished blue guns to sell. They can get away with poor fit and finsh and cover it with thick dull finsh and injection molded stocks. People post WWII used to joke about Japan crap. Today the guns coming from their are as nice or nicer thanour old stuff and ours look like Jap Crap. Thats why I buy vintage used American guns.

Scooter22 said:

Marlin isn't Marlin anymore. The original factory, machinery and generations old workforce are gone. That was Marlin (JM). They got bought and production was moved to Remington who never made lever actions. Now theres suppose to be new machinery but the workers are still new to the lever action game. 2nd thing may just be a pet peeve of mine is the rise of the "Black Rifle". Not just ARs but the whole plastic stock, dull/ruff finish guns. They sell a ton of them. Guess what. We showed them they don't need to make nice finished wood and polished blue guns to sell. They can get away with poor fit and finsh and cover it with thick dull finsh and injection molded stocks. People post WWII used to joke about Japan crap. Today the guns coming from their are as nice or nicer thanour old stuff and ours look like Jap Crap. Thats why I buy vintage used American guns.

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There are lots of very nicely finished guns available, but they are are also quite expensive. I want them but I can't afford them. Sad to say but if I have to pay $300 extra dollars for fancy finishes I will usually go without. The differency in cost between a marlin and a henry is all in the finishing labor. If you want that to come back you'll have to pony up and start buying the nicely finished expensive guns to show the manufacturer that there is a demand for it. If they don't offer a "deluxe" model of what you want write them and tell them you want it and will pay for it. Case in point if you really want a top quality finish 1894 they already offer that.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/custom-shop/model-1894/model-1894-fancy

CraigC said:

I said that they have never been top drawer for fit & finish,

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Nobody's expecting nor has asked for a Marlin rifle to have a "top drawer" fit and finish. But some of us expect a $400.00 rifle to come with sights and butt plates that are centered, decent checkering (I'd much rather have no checkering than mediocre "chicken scratching") and properly finished stocks. If you're willing to accept and pay for less, I'm sure Marlin will continue to oblige.

Well I finally got time to shoot my marlin today. I loaded up a ladder load of 350 grain cast bullets with trail boss. It looks like I have to retract my statement of my gun not having any quality issues. The first shots were going about 8 inches to the left and down a bit at 50 yards. It was not apperent to me until I looked at it sitting on the shooting bench, but the front sight is not on straight.



I was able to drift the front sight over enough to zero the rifle but It looks silly drifted over that far



It's a shame because it is a good shooter. The 6 or 7 holes circled in the center were the final sight position after drifting it back and forth a couple times. I have terrible eyesight so this is really good shooting for me at 50 yards with buckhorn sights.



I can't decide if I want to send it back or put a peep sight on it with adjustable windage. I already worked over the trigger so it would be a shame if they "fixed" the trigger back to stock or just sent me a different gun.

someguy2800 said:

Well I finally got time to shoot my marlin today. I loaded up a ladder load of 350 grain cast bullets with trail boss. It looks like I have to retract my statement of my gun not having any quality issues. The first shots were going about 8 inches to the left and down a bit at 50 yards. It was not apperent to me until I looked at it sitting on the shooting bench, but the front sight is not on straight.

View attachment 760697

I was able to drift the front sight over enough to zero the rifle but It looks silly drifted over that far

View attachment 760698

It's a shame because it is a good shooter. The 6 or 7 holes circled in the center were the final sight position after drifting it back and forth a couple times. I have terrible eyesight so this is really good shooting for me at 50 yards with buckhorn sights.

View attachment 760699

I can't decide if I want to send it back or put a peep sight on it with adjustable windage. I already worked over the trigger so it would be a shame if they "fixed" the trigger back to stock or just sent me a different gun.

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my rear sight is taller on the right side than the left so i knocked it out and put a small leupold on it. my buddy keeps harping on me that its a deer gun and it will get some abuse that he doesn't know why im so anal about it. Im anal about it because be it $400 or $4000 when you pay someone for something it should be right. no excuses! if marlin wants to MSRP a rifle at $600 and then throw a $100 rebate on it along with store sales then that's marlins fault and not the consumers. My stocks 2 different pieces of wood and I'm debating sending it back to them because i really like the deep checkering of the forend for the grip when its wet out but its a shade or 2 lighter than the buttstock and obviously 2 different woods form the feel and look. id send them a pic and say please send me new sights. they shouldn't need the rifle for new sights if you don't want to spend the arm and leg for a peep sight.

Awhile back I responded to a thread where the original poster praised Ruger customer service because the brand new 10-22 he purchased came less a retaining pin for the magazine.They were sending him a pin pronto and people thought that was great. My thinking was the gun never should have left the factory in the first place. The list goes on and on through handguns through rifles and shotguns to include just about every gun manufacturer out there. There is a reason when I buy a "new" gun it is decades old. I did a few years ago buy a brand new CZ 22 rimfire rifle but other than that little rifle everything I buy is older guns. Forged case hardened steel has become case hardened peanut butter and quality standards seem a thing of the past. Looking at some of the defects and issues with factory new guns leaves me wondering how the pieces ever cleared making it out the door. The American and other buyers need to unite and send a clear concise message to the gun manufacturers that sub standard quality is not acceptable. I don't mind paying for quality but I have a right to expect a defect free product for the money.

Just My Take....
Ron.

Reloadron said:

Awhile back I responded to a thread where the original poster praised Ruger customer service because the brand new 10-22 he purchased came less a retaining pin for the magazine.They were sending him a pin pronto and people thought that was great. My thinking was the gun never should have left the factory in the first place. The list goes on and on through handguns through rifles and shotguns to include just about every gun manufacturer out there. There is a reason when I buy a "new" gun it is decades old. I did a few years ago buy a brand new CZ 22 rimfire rifle but other than that little rifle everything I buy is older guns. Forged case hardened steel has become case hardened peanut butter and quality standards seem a thing of the past. Looking at some of the defects and issues with factory new guns leaves me wondering how the pieces ever cleared making it out the door. The American and other buyers need to unite and send a clear concise message to the gun manufacturers that sub standard quality is not acceptable. I don't mind paying for quality but I have a right to expect a defect free product for the money.

Just My Take....
Ron.

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100% spot on Ron.

IDK if its just cheap labor that they hire and they don't care or if they are told get it done as fast as possible and who the hell cares what it looks like. When i called Marlin about my stock being 2 types of wood (yes it was partially my fault) the guy sounded to me like this was a known issue and they would fix it ASAP. When i showed my buddy who grew up woodworking and is a huge gun nut and refinishes stocks, etc for people he said the forend is a softer wood and definitely not walnut like the butt stock. how something like that leaves the factory is beyond me. crooked sights, sharp edges on levers, etc. its crazy!

I was given a 12ga Revolation shotgun with a 28/29'' full choked barrel when i was about 15yo and that gun was built better than my new Mossberg 500 12ga. I'm always scared to buy used thinking ill get someone else headache especially if its a newer model and on the used rack. I purchased a used CVA muzzleloader i thought i was getting a good deal on cause it was like 2nd year production on them and a lot of money off. i spent at least $100 trying different bullets and powder to get that thing to shoot and one of the reasons was the mount screws wouldn't stay tight even with lock tight and once i got new screws for the mount it still wouldn't shoot anything but one type of bullet and even that was pitiful accuracy.

Reloadron said:

Awhile back I responded to a thread where the original poster praised Ruger customer service because the brand new 10-22 he purchased came less a retaining pin for the magazine.They were sending him a pin pronto and people thought that was great. My thinking was the gun never should have left the factory in the first place. The list goes on and on through handguns through rifles and shotguns to include just about every gun manufacturer out there. There is a reason when I buy a "new" gun it is decades old. I did a few years ago buy a brand new CZ 22 rimfire rifle but other than that little rifle everything I buy is older guns. Forged case hardened steel has become case hardened peanut butter and quality standards seem a thing of the past. Looking at some of the defects and issues with factory new guns leaves me wondering how the pieces ever cleared making it out the door. The American and other buyers need to unite and send a clear concise message to the gun manufacturers that sub standard quality is not acceptable. I don't mind paying for quality but I have a right to expect a defect free product for the money.

Just My Take....
Ron.

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But the consumer has already sent the opposite message to the manufacturer. That price point is god. A $300 to $500 gun simply will never have the same level of QC that more expensive guns have.

To put things in perspective, a $400 gun now is the equivalent of a $134 gun in 1980. I was just barely alive at that point so I don't remember, but could a new production centerfire rifle of consistent and flawless quality be purchased in 1980 for $134?

My guess is that manufacturers are skimping on QC now because an accountant ran figures and determined that it was ultimately more profitable to repair or replace lemons that make it out of the factory than it is to improve QC and thus raise the price of a gun.

Jason_W said:

But the consumer has already sent the opposite message to the manufacturer. That price point is god. A $300 to $500 gun simply will never have the same level of QC that more expensive guns have.

To put things in perspective, a $400 gun now is the equivalent of a $134 gun in 1980. I was just barely alive at that point so I don't remember, but could a new production centerfire rifle of consistent and flawless quality be purchased in 1980 for $134?

My guess is that manufacturers are skimping on QC now because an accountant ran figures and determined that it was ultimately more profitable to repair or replace lemons that make it out of the factory than it is to improve QC and thus raise the price of a gun.

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you don't have to pay someone to inspect each part. if one guys job is to make levers then he should be checking them to make sure they are done right and not going to cause you to get 20 stiches. if one guys job is to put the stock on the gun they should be able to notice hey this is a marlin 336 stock and not the 1895 stock or the guy who puts on sights. how the heck does he not see the sights are crooked? price has 0 to do with it! we bitch about things made in china, korea, mexico but we cant even get American workers to give a rats rear end about their job to take 3 seconds to check something over or say to the boss hey the sights are bent. I worked at 16yo as a landscape laborer under the table for $6hr after school and on weekends and during the summer. i got paid 5x lower than i should have been and for what i did and i still made sure everything i did was 100% right!

A firearm needs sights to shoot it. shooting and being accurate is the whole point of a firearm whether it be cheap or expensive. I will tell you what ill put my savage axis 223 against someone's Remington, tika, factory rifle with the same scope, twist, ammo, etc and i bet ya i could hang with them. its because savage makes very high quality at a modest price because they aren't worried about what new sports car they can buy or have a call center handle the calls. i had an issue with my savage and actually spoke to the smith and asked about not being able to shoot certain factory ammo due to a short throat. his exact works was if i was reloading for it or shooting 55gr v max factory like i said i was he wouldn't touch it because it would effect accuracy to just deal with not being able to shoot 68gr gold dot hollow points. we all understand that sometimes defects happen like my axis not ejecting rounds but common when you put sights that are crookeder than a politician on a rifle and ship it off that shows you don't GIF about your job, the customer that's keeping you in a job, etc. even if its a $100 gun. its part of it and should function. its like saying the headlights on a kia don't work or are missing cause its a kia and you should have purchased a Bentley if you wanted headlights! n

ohihunter2014 said:

you don't have to pay someone to inspect each part. if one guys job is to make levers then he should be checking them to make sure they are done right and not going to cause you to get 20 stiches. if one guys job is to put the stock on the gun they should be able to notice hey this is a marlin 336 stock and not the 1895 stock or the guy who puts on sights. how the heck does he not see the sights are crooked? price has 0 to do with it! we bitch about things made in china, korea, mexico but we cant even get American workers to give a rats rear end about their job to take 3 seconds to check something over or say to the boss hey the sights are bent. I worked at 16yo as a landscape laborer under the table for $6hr after school and on weekends and during the summer. i got paid 5x lower than i should have been and for what i did and i still made sure everything i did was 100% right!

A firearm needs sights to shoot it. shooting and being accurate is the whole point of a firearm whether it be cheap or expensive. I will tell you what ill put my savage axis 223 against someone's Remington, tika, factory rifle with the same scope, twist, ammo, etc and i bet ya i could hang with them. its because savage makes very high quality at a modest price because they aren't worried about what new sports car they can buy or have a call center handle the calls. i had an issue with my savage and actually spoke to the smith and asked about not being able to shoot certain factory ammo due to a short throat. his exact works was if i was reloading for it or shooting 55gr v max factory like i said i was he wouldn't touch it because it would effect accuracy to just deal with not being able to shoot 68gr gold dot hollow points. we all understand that sometimes defects happen like my axis not ejecting rounds but common when you put sights that are crookeder than a politician on a rifle and ship it off that shows you don't GIF about your job, the customer that's keeping you in a job, etc. even if its a $100 gun. its part of it and should function. its like saying the headlights on a kia don't work or are missing cause its a kia and you should have purchased a Bentley if you wanted headlights! n

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I agree with you in principal. But the word you're using a lot is "should". People should do a lot of things, but they're simply not going to. That's an unfortunate reality that isn't likely to change within our lifetime.

The dissatisfaction and disillusionment of the American worker is a real problem across all industries, though, in this case, it is apparent through guns. I have no idea what the pay, work conditions, and company culture are like at the plant where Marlins are manufactured. But in general, when a job is miserable enough, low paying enough, with little opportunity for advancement, people tend to find the line where they'll be fired and stay just on the right side of it. we can rant til we're blue in the face about how that's wrong, but it won't change a thing.

There could also be a situation where, in order to produce enough units in a shift to pass price point on to the consumer, the guy churning out the levers simply doesn't have time to check them. Slowing down the manufacturing process even slightly would probably increase the cost to the consumer considerably.

Yes, I wish we lived in a world where we could buy hot of the line firearms for $100 and they would be as accurate and reliable as a $10k gun, but it's simply never going to happen.

The cold hard reality of buying guns, or really any consumer product is this:

1. You can buy a new price point item and hope you get a good one, but be prepared to deal with customer service repair, replacement etc.

2. You can buy a used item that once went for way more than you could afford, but due to cosmetic wear and tear it's now in your price range.

3. Save longer to get into a higher price bracket, but keep in mind that even luxury items are not immune to the occasional lemon.

I don't like these truths any more than anyone else here and I'm not being an apologist for shoddy products. I'm simply facing one of the many cold, hard brutal realities of our modern economy.

In the last 2 years I have purchased both a 336 and a 1895, both of which where in perfect working order with no flaws. Both of which have at least 100rds through them and shoot well. I also sell firearms for a living and have not seen many marlins come through my work with the many flaws that others are seeing. Worst I have seen is a model 60 come through that marlin decided to mount the scope on prior to shipping that was completely broken in half. But that could have happened during shipping.

Jason_W said:

But the consumer has already sent the opposite message to the manufacturer. That price point is god. A $300 to $500 gun simply will never have the same level of QC that more expensive guns have.

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Unfortunately true. I have to agree with that, we have come to expect less in quality when buying a low priced gun. Hell, I see it extending well beyond guns too.

Ron

Well I finally shot my Marlin and even though the stocks different it consistently touches holes at 100yards. At least they got something right!

You have to be happy with that accuracy!

BigBore44 said:

I don't expect a $450 rifle to have the fit and finish of a $20K H&H. I don't even think it's realistic the have one be of the same standards of any mid/upper end lever rifle.

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Actually...why NOT expect this kind of quality for half a grand?

Fit and finish isn't "magic"...it's actually nothing more than a basic skill set for anybody with a halfway decent level of woodworking ability/skill.

Especially when you consider the level of precision automation SHOULD be bringing to the table in the first place.

NOTHING involving the metal working should be out of any design tolerance, period. And the wood stock workmanship should be right up there, too, since there's little that's not understood about wood grain, curing, cutting, milling, fitting, or finish.

It isn't magic but it costs more. There are no free lunches. You want more, expect to pay more. Better fit & finish costs money, whether it's through better machining, better polishing, or more hand work. Better machine work takes more time and more frequent tool changes. Better polishing takes time and skill. More hand work takes even more skill and more time. Everything that takes more time and skill also takes more money. Sometimes exponentially more.

For example, Uberti's cost less than USFA's because they run their machines faster and change cutters less often, which results in a rougher finished product.

There's a significant difference in the cost between a new Marlin and a new Japanese Winchester and most of that is in fit & finish.

RetiredUSNChief said:

Actually...why NOT expect this kind of quality for half a grand?

Fit and finish isn't "magic"...it's actually nothing more than a basic skill set for anybody with a halfway decent level of woodworking ability/skill.

Especially when you consider the level of precision automation SHOULD be bringing to the table in the first place.

NOTHING involving the metal working should be out of any design tolerance, period. And the wood stock workmanship should be right up there, too, since there's little that's not understood about wood grain, curing, cutting, milling, fitting, or finish.

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Well Craig basically said what I would have stated. Time = money. But you also have to read what I said after that little excerpt you quoted me on. There are some basic things that should be expected.

In a the manufacturing world "cost" means how much money is expended to make something, that includes the cost of the building, the people, the equipment, marketing, intrest on loans, the refrigerator in the break room, etc...

Price is what you can get the consumer to pay for something. Cost and price don't always have a direct corellation. To find a successful balance as a manucturer you have to find the price that people are willing to pay for something, then figure out how to get the cost of manufacture under the price the market is willing to pay.

People are evidently willing to pay about $450 for a lever action rifle. If the price was $600 for a 30-30 you would probably cut your market by about 1/2 or 2/3rds.

Now if your cost to manufacture is $300 for each gun and you know your expenses you can figure out how many you need to make to be profitable. If your struggling to make them for that much you need to make your manufacturing process more efficient or start laying people off. If your throwing 20% of your components in the scrap bin your wasting a lot of money on manufacturing overhead labor and materials. If you can't make enough to meet the demand price has to go up or production needs to go faster. If you are making more then the demand you have to start laying people off or put them on sale and hopefully you have enough sales to pay the overhead.

There are a lot of parts going into a gun and production capacity is not always the same for all parts. They may have the machines machining revievers really dialed in with little scrap but the equipment carving stocks may be running three shift and not keeping up. The easiest and cheapest way to fix that is to stop throwing them in the trash because the inlet or the color isn't perfect. A manufacturer has to be producing to keep the lights on so they are not going to stop everything and lay off machinists just because they are having a hard time with stocks.

These are the challenges every manufacturer faces, some deal with it better than other. Many go out of business.

All true...

But by the same token, there should be NO tolerance errors whatsoever with the metal work. There should be no off-center bores, no front sights mounted off-true, etc.

And basic fitup and finish with the wood? There should be NO problems with this, either.

These all fall under the heading of "mass production" in an era significantly beyond the "industrial revolution" era.

Add to that even the most basic Quality Assurance program, and you shouldn't be seeing ANY rifle get out the door with a clearly buggered up front site, butt plates not centered and mounted to the stock correctly, or wood finish with anything other than the most minor blemish.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot these things, and it doesn't take endless hours of hand finishing to product a decent wood finish.

dranrab said:

You have to be happy with that accuracy!

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ehh... Not really! Lol. I haven't shot a big bore since November 2016 so I was a little off by the gun jumping 1ft off the front bag but I'm very happy. I just hope my reloads do the same thing if not better.

Well how about the quality of 31 year old Marlin. I just purchased this one today. DOM 1986. Unfired 1894CS in 357/38. Williams peep sight. I won't say what I paid for it but I got a good deal (under $800). It is in PERFECT condition. Bluing is excellent. Wood is excellent. Fit and finish are awesome. No gaps. Sights straight. Tight and smooth action.

CraigC said:

Don't take it too far, I never said that. I said that they have never been top drawer for fit & finish, which is fine, because you're not paying for it. I don't expect a $400 Marlin to be finished like a $1200 Japanese Winchester or Browning. Just as I don't expect a $400 Ruger to be finished like a $3000 Freedom Arms. For all of recent memory, Marlin has cut corners on finish work, presumably to cut costs and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't expect too much. Methinks the market for such guns is much larger than that for similar guns that cost two or three times as much but shoddy ain't the word for it.

If you haven't seen less than perfect metal work on a Marlin of the last 20yrs, you haven't been paying much attention.

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I'm not too young to remember when something labeled "made in Japan" was a sure sign of shoddy workmanship. Man, have things changed. Quality items are worth pretty much exactly what they were worth years ago. In 1873 a $20 gold piece would buy you a brand new Colt Peacemaker. Today, a $20 gold piece will buy you a brand new Colt Peacemaker from their custom shop.

Much of that was really just negative propaganda leftover from the war, just like the myths about Napolean being short and ill-tempered and Southern folk marrying their cousins. Now, you'll never catch me driving a Japanese car but Miroku does make a fantastic firearm!

American Rifleman's latest issue has an article by Bodington (a writer I generally disagree with) on a Marlin Custom Shop Guide Gun. Other than the Cerakote and camouflaged stock, and larger lever loop, none of which interest me, It has nothing that isn't on or hasn't been done to my stainless model.

His one big comment seems to be that the trigger is better, but at 3 pounds 8 ounces, it is heavier than my Wild West Guns Happy Trigger. And unless they replaced the two piece extractor with a one piece (like my WWG Bear Proof Extractor) it will be subject to the same breakage.

My point is that you can pay a small fortune for a Guide Gun from the Marlin Custom Shop, or buy a box stock one and have the fun of customizing it yourself for a heck of a lot less.

Oh, and the one in the article still has the safety. I've replaced mine with a nice saddle ring. Looks better, has a purpose, and can't get either inadvertently activated, or forgotten when it comes time to shoot.

And frankly, I think mine looks a heck of a lot prettier.