What is that supposed to mean?
Pack heat folks... and be aware of your surroundings.
- Thread starter Deaf Smith
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TN Outlaw
Member
Taking a chance of defending yourself with whatever tactics you so choose is what i meant.
Well the victim wasn't Anderson Sylva and he didn't have knife or a gun the bad guy didn't see. So that's all moot and completely immaterial to a discussion of this incident.
In this incident the victim, who knew his limitations took the wrong tactical chance and paid a heavy price for it. That's all we are saying. The victim was unable to read the intent of the strong arm robber. If he had any training or experience dealing with people like that he would have been able to tell by his attacker's body language that his attempt to stop him would be met with a fight. I saw it on the video. Looking at the strong armed robber after more then 20 years in LE told me that this was the guy who was going to require 4 officers or a taser or OC or maybe a combination of those options to arrest. Every sign was there in his body language. He had just committed a strong arm robbery and his only thought was to get away. Once the victim made his ineffective return punch the assailant's motivation changed to punishing the victim for daring to stand up to him. The victim, who most likely had never dealt with someone like that before made the wrong tactical decision. It's as simple as that.
I'm going to admit that by the standards of of some people in this thread I am a coward. While working LE alone in a rural area I walked away from an arrest when I realized that to push the issue with that person at that moment was going to result in a fight that might require me to use deadly force to win. So yes, I walked away until backup was available and then came back and made the arrest without a fight or with enough assistance that the fight wasn't likely to result in shooting someone. I did this more then once. Let me relate one of those instances to illustrate:
It was 0230 on a Saturday night. My shift was almost over. I am sitting in the driveway of a closed gas station running radar on the state highway going through town. Two cars who are obviously racing shoot down the highway lighting my radar up at 86 mph. I take off in pursuit and they continue their race all the way to a house where there is a party going on. The drivers bail out and run into the house. I exit my squad and tell the people out in the yard to send the drivers out. There is some discussion about that and I called for backup. It turned out that both deputies were out on a domestic at the other end of the county almost 30 miles away. There wasn't a state trooper working in the county that night. So no backup was available. I finally convinced the wife of the homeowner to go in and get the drivers (one of whom was her husband). They come out and the other driver is Shannon D. Shannon D is about 6'6" 325 and mostly muscle, he's a known quantity to LE in this area as every time we have arrested him, it took four or more officers, OC or a taser and sometimes a combination of all those elements to take him into custody. Now I'm not a little guy, 6'2", 250, but given my knowledge of him there was no way I was going to start a fight to arrest him for DUI and reckless driving that was likely to end with me shooting him to make the arrest. So I told them to take the party inside and left. Later that day two deputies, a trooper and myself went back and arrested them on the reckless driving charges. Shannon D was still sleeping it off and we had him cuffed before he woke up.
Now I would have been 100% within my rights to make the arrest on the spot even if Shannon D's resistance to said arrest required me to shoot him. Which according to your post and the posts of others here was exactly what I should have done. After all, I was the good guy, Shannon D and the other driver committed a crime and endangered the public. I suppose by waiting and coming back with enough force to solve the problem without violence I let the entire criminal justice system down and the two people we arrested took the wrong lesson from it.
In the case discussed here, the victim made the wrong tactical decision and he took a severe beating for it. Standing up to the outrage of having his $35 ripped from his hands was the preferred course of action to you and several others here, when the beating could have been avoided and the police could have arrested the strong arm robber after the robbery instead of arresting him after a robbery and an attack that well could have been murder.
Bad guy goes to jail, victim isn't beaten severely. What's wrong with that outcome?
And before someone chimes in that the police wouldn't have done anything because the victim wasn't hurt, I'm going to call BS on that argument in advance. That was an easy case to solve there was all kinds of good video. Wouldn't have needed the detectives or anything else. The patrol officers responding to the report of the strong armed robbery could have looked at the video and most likely recognized the guy as local to the area.
The choice many of you are advocating is simply hubris. It is an emotional response to a situation that needs to be devoid of emotion.
Not knowing what was said at the door it's hard to say what precipitated extreme hatred shown by the thief. It's hard to imagine this kind of beating was precipitated by simple insistence "I want my money back". It looks like hate crime to me.
Before fighting back, ask yourself whether losing the fight will leave you worse off than not fighting at all. That's a difficult question requiring long and careful consideration of different scenarios. You don't want to wait until you are on the spot to begin thinking about it.
I would call him a robber rather than a thief....
But for those who seem to insist on trying to understand all human behavior in terms of their own psychological constructs and personal experiences, I really, really recommend perusing the Marc MacYoung material to which I have provided links, and read some of Rory Miller's books.
Dr. William Aprill's descriptions of personal behavior and standards of conduct in some social circles just might expend your perception.
People who have not done at least a little study of the kinds of things that certain people do today are likely to get in over their heads without seeing it coming.
TN Outlaw
Member
Jeff White, hold up a sec.
If my point is moot, then what on earth would you call your story about big Shannon D? Cant be a hypocrite just to prove your point. I definitely didn't see Shannon D or you in that video, nor did i see anybody drunk/wreckless driving. We both used those as illustrations to make our point, i made mine and you made yours and it was a good point i thought. Just dont think your gonna chastise me and then do the very same thing you called moot when i did it.
2nd-with all this "you and others" stuff, ive said almost repeatedly that im not condoning anybody else to stand up to a bad guy and doing so dont make you a hero just like walking away dont make you a chump. It just makes our decisions different. Im not going to put you down for your choices and id be thankful if you wouldn't me.
My "moot" point was to a conversation that a man should know better than dare mess with a bigger or younger guy or a fella with "that look" in his eyes. I just made a point some of the baddest dudes ive ever seen were smaller than me and that you can have whatever look in your eyes you want, dont keep you from getting the stew beat out of you and that anytime you defend yourself, the chance is there for it to go south no matter how much training you have or what book you have read. You never know what the opposition may have in store for you. Thats all i was saying. It went south for the victim in this case, but it wont always. It just has the chance to, just like anytime you defend yourself.
Your Shannon D story had a good point to it imho. Your a professional officer and you should act.....well professional and never let emotion be a factor at all. The smart play was to wait for back up to arrive if you didnt have the tools to safely(without serious harm to you or him) take down the guy on your own. Im not a LEO and a guy taking $ from my hand will trigger an emotional response. Not a nice one either.
If you believe a fist fight will lead to a gunfight, you should avoid it if possible. You had a history with Shannon and knew what was in store so thats a little different. Everybody isnt Shannon D, sometimes its just a fist fight that you win or loose. Dont mistake me for someone looking for trouble because im quite the contrary. Im an easy going guy that dont look for any trouble and therefore trouble hasnt found me very often since i was a 20yr old punk but i train for it incase it does and hope i never have to resort to fighting, ever.
All ive said is what I would do(as in me, myself) and ive spent alot of time having to bicker about it which is ok i guess other than being ask if id be glad if this victim was killed or you saying according to my post you should have confronted those guys when i never said such a thing. If your going to quote me to debate something, plz respect me enough to debate what i actually said.
If my point is moot, then what on earth would you call your story about big Shannon D? Cant be a hypocrite just to prove your point. I definitely didn't see Shannon D or you in that video, nor did i see anybody drunk/wreckless driving. We both used those as illustrations to make our point, i made mine and you made yours and it was a good point i thought. Just dont think your gonna chastise me and then do the very same thing you called moot when i did it.
2nd-with all this "you and others" stuff, ive said almost repeatedly that im not condoning anybody else to stand up to a bad guy and doing so dont make you a hero just like walking away dont make you a chump. It just makes our decisions different. Im not going to put you down for your choices and id be thankful if you wouldn't me.
My "moot" point was to a conversation that a man should know better than dare mess with a bigger or younger guy or a fella with "that look" in his eyes. I just made a point some of the baddest dudes ive ever seen were smaller than me and that you can have whatever look in your eyes you want, dont keep you from getting the stew beat out of you and that anytime you defend yourself, the chance is there for it to go south no matter how much training you have or what book you have read. You never know what the opposition may have in store for you. Thats all i was saying. It went south for the victim in this case, but it wont always. It just has the chance to, just like anytime you defend yourself.
Your Shannon D story had a good point to it imho. Your a professional officer and you should act.....well professional and never let emotion be a factor at all. The smart play was to wait for back up to arrive if you didnt have the tools to safely(without serious harm to you or him) take down the guy on your own. Im not a LEO and a guy taking $ from my hand will trigger an emotional response. Not a nice one either.
If you believe a fist fight will lead to a gunfight, you should avoid it if possible. You had a history with Shannon and knew what was in store so thats a little different. Everybody isnt Shannon D, sometimes its just a fist fight that you win or loose. Dont mistake me for someone looking for trouble because im quite the contrary. Im an easy going guy that dont look for any trouble and therefore trouble hasnt found me very often since i was a 20yr old punk but i train for it incase it does and hope i never have to resort to fighting, ever.
All ive said is what I would do(as in me, myself) and ive spent alot of time having to bicker about it which is ok i guess other than being ask if id be glad if this victim was killed or you saying according to my post you should have confronted those guys when i never said such a thing. If your going to quote me to debate something, plz respect me enough to debate what i actually said.
It may "go south for a victim" who tries to "defend himself", but unless the victim had a basis for believing that if was going to "go south" for him in a very bad way right then and there if he did not act, his taking action would not be classified as lawful self defense.
Using reasonable force to prevent a robbery? Usually okay legally. But "fighting" is rarely lawful.
TN Outlaw
Member
I never said it was lawful or it wasnt. I Never mentioned the law in any of my posts for a reason and that reason is that it wouldn't affect what i, again i, me, myself, not you, would do in the least as it pertains to this instance of a fist fight one way or another.
At that moment the last thing that would be on my mind is how lawful trying to obtain my belongings from a thief was. You guys can debate that, im not.
Not to appear argumentative, but that is really, really not something that you would want a prosecutor or a plaintiffs attorney reading in court after you have been involved in an incident that is somehow called into question.
One other thing: while it may be lawful in Texas to use necessary force recover property under some circumstances, in other states, one may lawfully use force only to prevent the taking of property.
You are apparently willing to state publicly that you do not care about that, but it is very important that other readers here understand such things.
old lady new shooter
Member
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Watching the video BG is clearly totally impulse-driven... he saw the money and decided to take it, then when the victim blocked his exit he ferociously attacked him, way beyond what would have been needed just to get past him. Impulse #1 - ooh, money, I want that; impulse #2 - what nerve, he wants to stop me?
TN Outlaw
Member
You just wont let it go will you?
Is this really what this conversation has come to? God forbid some prosecutor read on a forum that i would dare "fist fight" to attempt to keep my property from being stolen and if i did fist fight, the last thing i would be thinking about during such fight is what the local laws are in regards to fighting. Instead id be thinking about getting my stuff back without getting hurt. If thats all they can dig up on me, ill take my chances.
Look, you two guys mean well. Your saying how to do things the correct way. By the book, and i commend you for it. Show no aggression, let the police do their jobs, be the best witness you can possibly be. Same ole same ole that ive seen and read a million times on here and other forums. Good, sound advice too. I agree in most cases. Especially when more serious acts are in question like baseball bat, knife, gun etc. Instead of typing the same default answer, i actually thought about it and what i would do if suddenly someone snatched my property out of my hands, and i gave my HONEST answer. After all of this bickering, id still do the same thing. No, im not worried that one day some lawyer may look on this forum. They are welcome to read anything ive posted. Ill even copy it for them if need be. I need to make sure not to mod my handguns trigger, or put a "punisher" symbol on it, and worry about such things the rest of my days too huh? Oh, how that makes me appear as such a hoodlum just itching to use my weapon? You can worry about all those nuances while i live my life doing what i enjoy without bothering anybody. No hard feelings here.
Not that it matters to me but in TN i have the right to use force to regain my property if used in immediate or fresh pursuit of the dispossession.
Im done, have a nice day.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
What I find to be funny in a sad and tragic way is all the yelling and screaming to the rafters of words like "Situational Awareness" and "H2H" and "Tactics". It's become comical to the extreme. That guy, the one who took a savage beating, was no more capable of mounting a mental, let alone a physical, or an armed defense than your average three year old. What I mean by that is that he was clearly not mentally prepared to accept the reality that bad things happen to decent people and that HE could be a victim because he walked blindly out of his lollipop and cotton candy world, right into the real world of sharp edges, cactus, and pokey things that will hurt you.
Nothing in anything he did in the video from opening his wallet within arm's reach of an "interested thug" who was clearly sizing him up, to the ineffectual schoolyard punch he threw at the subject, does anything to change my opinion on that.
The whole notion that had be been armed that he would have been any better off than if he would have just let the guy go and not tried to stop him is comedy.
It's not about being manly or brave. You can be manly and brave, but still make a bad decision and do stupid stuff.
Personally, I wouldn't have been standing that close to the subject in any case. No, it's not "racist" it's called being a "realist". I have dealt with the thug type(s) for too many years to underestimate the level of violence they will perpetrate when they are sure they can get away with it. This one damned sure gave off the predator signals and sized up the victim (and he WAS a victim). Nothing about the victim sent out a signal that he was bad prey.
I am not blaming the victim for anything, I am merely making a realistic observation of a predator-prey interaction.
Let's make the leap that AstroMan was carrying a pistol. I don't even care what kind, caliber, size, whatever...let's "betend" he had a gun. At no time during the alpha to omega of the incident was he in a position to draw and effectively employ it. He was well within arm's reach of the subject at all times. He came right into the store, sidled up close to the subject and pulled out his wallet.
The smart move would have been to come in, look around, make a right turn to the back of the store, get the money handled and into his pocket and NOT pulled it out again until he was at the counter with a clerk taking it from him. By that time the subject would have been gone and Happy Meal. Buuuuut, no, he walked right in and said:
"Hellooooo....please take my money...and let me help you do it, and by golly when you surprise me like a stripper out of a cake, then I am going to assist you in kicking the **** out of me by trying to stop you from leaving and throwing a sissy punch".
Better still...get the money arranged and into his pocket while he was still in his car, so the wallet would never have come out.
Think about this...if you are facing a CHUD like the subject...you better damned well assume that he's been hit as hard as he will ever BE hit, and anything you can land on him isn't going to do much to impress him. Yes, of course I know you are all "H2H experts" in KravMagoober and will do some ninja **** and prevail like a SEAL beating up a baby, I get it. It's cool. But AstroMan was clearly NOT the subject's equal in size, fitness, or willingness to do violence. I would even go so far as to say that AstroMan had never experienced or even seen real violence up close...and that is true of many of the people reading this right now.
I am not indicting the victim per se, just the prevailing mindset among people, and even the "gun enthusiasts" who use the cool words and catchphrases without ever really training for the real eventuality of a situation such as this one.
Personally...at 49...knowing "I ain't as good as I once was"...I would lave just smooth walked in, made that right turn, and handled business as laid out above. If the CHUD would have paid me any extra attention like he was sizing me up, I would have activated the "cop stank" my friend says I still exude and done my best to make the CHUD think twice, of course my hand would have been surreptitiously on the 9mm in my pocket and well out of reach of the guy and I would have been creating even more space. I would have been (hopefully) bad prey and he, as a predator, should recognize it. He clearly recognized AstroMan as good prey.
I don't wear my utility belt with all the cool stuff on it anymore, like my TASER, my OC, my ASP, or my RADIO to call for backup. So, no, I ain't a gonna mix it up with a CHUD like that either even though I too have been hit as hard as I am likely to ever be hit and unless I got really lucky and got him into an IMMEDIATE carotid choke and put him out, or was lucky enough to still be able to sweep and break his knee as he approached then I would be in DEEP doo doo and it would have become a gun problem, and one that MIGHT have been avoided.
Yes, it was disparity of force as soon as AstroMan was on the ground getting stomped, but by that time, he was in no condition to draw and fire even if he had a gun.
Nothing in anything he did in the video from opening his wallet within arm's reach of an "interested thug" who was clearly sizing him up, to the ineffectual schoolyard punch he threw at the subject, does anything to change my opinion on that.
The whole notion that had be been armed that he would have been any better off than if he would have just let the guy go and not tried to stop him is comedy.
It's not about being manly or brave. You can be manly and brave, but still make a bad decision and do stupid stuff.
Personally, I wouldn't have been standing that close to the subject in any case. No, it's not "racist" it's called being a "realist". I have dealt with the thug type(s) for too many years to underestimate the level of violence they will perpetrate when they are sure they can get away with it. This one damned sure gave off the predator signals and sized up the victim (and he WAS a victim). Nothing about the victim sent out a signal that he was bad prey.
I am not blaming the victim for anything, I am merely making a realistic observation of a predator-prey interaction.
Let's make the leap that AstroMan was carrying a pistol. I don't even care what kind, caliber, size, whatever...let's "betend" he had a gun. At no time during the alpha to omega of the incident was he in a position to draw and effectively employ it. He was well within arm's reach of the subject at all times. He came right into the store, sidled up close to the subject and pulled out his wallet.
The smart move would have been to come in, look around, make a right turn to the back of the store, get the money handled and into his pocket and NOT pulled it out again until he was at the counter with a clerk taking it from him. By that time the subject would have been gone and Happy Meal. Buuuuut, no, he walked right in and said:
"Hellooooo....please take my money...and let me help you do it, and by golly when you surprise me like a stripper out of a cake, then I am going to assist you in kicking the **** out of me by trying to stop you from leaving and throwing a sissy punch".
Better still...get the money arranged and into his pocket while he was still in his car, so the wallet would never have come out.
Think about this...if you are facing a CHUD like the subject...you better damned well assume that he's been hit as hard as he will ever BE hit, and anything you can land on him isn't going to do much to impress him. Yes, of course I know you are all "H2H experts" in KravMagoober and will do some ninja **** and prevail like a SEAL beating up a baby, I get it. It's cool. But AstroMan was clearly NOT the subject's equal in size, fitness, or willingness to do violence. I would even go so far as to say that AstroMan had never experienced or even seen real violence up close...and that is true of many of the people reading this right now.
I am not indicting the victim per se, just the prevailing mindset among people, and even the "gun enthusiasts" who use the cool words and catchphrases without ever really training for the real eventuality of a situation such as this one.
Personally...at 49...knowing "I ain't as good as I once was"...I would lave just smooth walked in, made that right turn, and handled business as laid out above. If the CHUD would have paid me any extra attention like he was sizing me up, I would have activated the "cop stank" my friend says I still exude and done my best to make the CHUD think twice, of course my hand would have been surreptitiously on the 9mm in my pocket and well out of reach of the guy and I would have been creating even more space. I would have been (hopefully) bad prey and he, as a predator, should recognize it. He clearly recognized AstroMan as good prey.
I don't wear my utility belt with all the cool stuff on it anymore, like my TASER, my OC, my ASP, or my RADIO to call for backup. So, no, I ain't a gonna mix it up with a CHUD like that either even though I too have been hit as hard as I am likely to ever be hit and unless I got really lucky and got him into an IMMEDIATE carotid choke and put him out, or was lucky enough to still be able to sweep and break his knee as he approached then I would be in DEEP doo doo and it would have become a gun problem, and one that MIGHT have been avoided.
Yes, it was disparity of force as soon as AstroMan was on the ground getting stomped, but by that time, he was in no condition to draw and fire even if he had a gun.
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9MMare
Member
It's about necessity and brains.It isn't about bravado and we as a species would never have accomplished anything if we only tried to defeat things we know we could win. You'd be speaking German right now if we all thought that way.
The victim also didn't pick a fight. He defended himself and his property.
What I inter from your line of thinking is it is ok to say , "I'm bigger, meaner, tougher so give me your stuff."
I know that isn't what you are advocating and this is also why Samuel Colt made all men equal.
I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.
He wasnt (didnt start out) defending himself. He chose to defend his property. In the big picture of survival...you choose smart or die. Got a family to support? A job to go to in one piece? Are you competant to fight here?
And right or wrong, it will likely cost you in legal bills (and medical).
Yeah, ego is not necessarily a survival trait. Proving something often costs more than it's worth in the big picture...the ability to determine the difference IS a survival trait.
9MMare
Member
Sometimes I wonder if most people even think about a variety of more common scenarios and how they could react or prepare for them. Has nothing to do with guns even, or doesnt have to. Just...what is the most prudent way to react? What can I do to minimize harm or loss, or protect my family?
That type of thinking alone would probably save alot of people a world of harm and loss. Just IMO.
9MMare
Member
Survival only matters today, in that moment...and then you live to fight another day (if necessary). Unless you think he'll be running into the same thief again? @_@
And #2 cuts both ways...exactly what lesson did the victim teach that thief? Maybe now he's emboldened. Maybe he got off on it and will do it again. IMO #2 comes mostly from ego and is the job of the police and justice system. If you dont prioritize that sentiment properly, you can end up being prosecuted yourself...
9MMare
Member
Not "liberal" at all. You have free will and people here, at least, should have competent knowledge of the laws where they live.
You get to choose...and you get the consequences or rewards, such as they may be.
The hyperbole of 'dont ever fight back', which was never presented here, shows the weakness of the analogy. It's about making the best decision at the time.
9MMare
Member
Yes, thanks. But you (seem to be) and others here are defending his decision.
I dont think it is constructive for anyone to try and make out like he made a 'good' decision.
Hey, as you wrote, maybe he will end up believing he made the right decision here. Me? I think he'd do so only if he's ended up with brain damage. (God willing he will not)
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
Jeff, I for one, agree with you totally on this one. You played it smart. I say this as a fellow LEO (27 years service, gangs-narcotics, patrol, SWAT-qualified) who has been in a very similar situation(s). I posted in a thread about "When can I draw" about an incident where a cab driver was severely beaten by a group of Mexican nationals, and the other responding officer and I decided to stand down and wait while other officers arrived and we took them down (without incident) on their way out to work in the morning when they were hung over and bleary eyed and in no shape to put up violent resistance. Incidental and pursuant to arrest we found a small amount of narcotics and a stolen handgun. Happy Meal...no one, including the subjects died. We used sound "tactics" by waiting for the situation to be to our best advantage which allowed us to take them into custody with no officers, innocent civilians, or subjects being harmed by a dynamic entry or use of lethal force which probably would have happened had we gone in "guns a blazin' using our hooligan tools to tear the door off the hinges".
Given that you knew Shannon D, and he was a "regular customer" you had a pretty good reason to believe that it would have escalated into a lethal force confrontation and with a high probability that you would have had to engage not only him but his friends and family. How many would have died? Was it worth it? Unknown, and No are the answers you and I both know are the right ones.
The amateur commandos who are screaming about "tactics", I will submit, know nothing about tactics other than it is a word printed on everything to sell crap to amateurs with stiffies to be United States Navy Ranger Army Seal Recon Marsoc CoastGuard Marine Commandos.
So then...let's talk about the "tactics" that some have mentioned. Tactics are nothing more than a SMART application of skills in solving an immediate problem.
By that definition, AstroMan, used really BAD tactics. Why? He did not possess the skills to apply in that situation, and his immediate problem (losing 35 bucks) became an emergency medical response problem for HIM. His "life tactic" was to walk around with his head up his ass and blindly walk into places (convenience stores) which history tells us are prone to criminal activity, with his goober goggles on thinking about hotdogs, baseball games, and stale beer, and not even see the 200 plus pound thug standing right next to him. Yeah bro...use dem tactics!
Jeff...you hit the nail on the head:
"Bad guy goes to jail, victim isn't beaten severely. What's wrong with that outcome?"
"Nothing" is the short, simple, and correct answer.
"Whoa...hey man, I don't want trouble. Take the cash. Don't hurt me!" - and I have the skills to blow him out of his shoes, let him have the 35 bucks. Say "I don't want trouble" in a loud and clear voice. Back up, get him thinking about the easy score he just made...give yourself DISTANCE and be prepared for immediate violent action.
"Gosh Creaky...you're a pussy for saying that! Man, you usta be a cop! I am sorry for the people you wuz 'posta pertect!" - Interwebz commandos.
"Yep. Big, giant pussy. HUGE pussy. Enormous pussy. Freakin A Skippy. Biggest pussy you ever met".
BUT...I am also a big giant pussy who is now ON VIDEO and AUDIO with WITNESSES saying "I don't want trouble, take the money" while I am creating DISTANCE between myself and the thug. I am giving myself a reactionary gap while the thug is thinking about the money a lot more than he is thinking about me and the gun I am .75 seconds away from now being able to draw and put three rounds into high center chest the second he makes a move toward me while I am still moving away. I will probably tell him that there is another "couple hundred bucks in the wallet and he can have that too".
Yeah...I just stalled his OODA loop and he is thinking about bending over to pick up the money, finding the wallet with MO MONEY in it, and not the gray haired old white dude who is a "big giant pussy".
He just lost the fight. I just won.
How?
1. He is no longer within an arm's length of me, and can't stop or stall my draw.
2. He is going to be bending DOWN concentrating on MONEY, not me.
3. I now have distance and time.
4. I am now in total control of the continuum.
I am still moving farther away, creating still MORE distance where he will have to re-orient himself toward me, decide on a course of action, signal another clear intent to attack, but guess what...by this time my gun is already OUT of the holster, trained on him, and I am telling him...still..."TAKE THE MONEY AND GO! I don't want trouble!" (remember, this is on video/audio and in front of witnesses).
Why is all that important? I have given up the money. I have given my clear intent to comply. I have articulated that I don't want trouble, and that I am willing to let it end at the loss of a few dollars. I have said ON VIDEO/AUDIO and in front of WITNESSES who will TESTIFY to those things that I don't want trouble. If then I am FORCED TO FIRE TO STOP AN ATTACK...everything I did will look a whole lot better to responding officers, detectives, potential prosecutors, the media, and a judge and jury is it even goes that far.
Pussy? Maybe. Better application of TACTICS and SKILLS? Abso-freakin-lootly.
Hopefully, he takes the cash and makes a dash. Cool. Happy Meal. It's a whole lot easier to explain why I drew and didn't shoot than it is to explain why I DID shoot. That thirty five bucks is, honestly, nothing. I piss away more than that on cigarettes and coffee in a couple of days. LL Home Boy is on VIDEO and the local officers will know who he is. A POS like him doesn't live in an area and NOT have multiple police contacts. The girls in the store probably know who he is. He will be caught. I'd rather testify in court that "Yeah, he done it" than testify as to why I put three rounds into the high center chest of some innocent minority victim of society.
But...I applied tactics, skills, brains, common sense, training, and gave myself every advantage to control the outcome.
AstoMan did none of those things.
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If I remember correctly, Mas Ayoob once advocated (IN the Gravest Extreme I believe) having a throw down wallet or money that you just toss away as a similar distraction as a result of a similar encounter on the street. He collected a lot of grief for his opinion but money is cheap, lawyer and medical bills and body parts are a bit expensive price to pay for what Rory Miller calls the monkey dance.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
It was a five dollar bill wrapped around a matchbook...but yes.
"Here...buy the guys a beer on me" was his reasoning in "In The Gravest Extreme".
The point is this, the guy in the Astros shirt was out of his depth in a mud puddle...as are most people when it comes to self defense and extreme violence. His best "tactic" would have been to give up the cash since he failed to utterly and totally at avoiding the incident altogether. Epic, total, fail.
Old Dog
Member
I am not in the slightest defending his decision. I am saying only that ONLY he ultimately can decide whether he made the right decision -- for himself. Here again, the internet makes it possible for people who've never been in a physical fight or taken a punch in their entire lives to ridicule others and proclaim to internet-land what fools these others have been ...
Some folks will take an ass-whipping to stand up for themselves. Others will not. Only you know what you can live with afterwards. I've avoiding ass-whippings on some occasions, and taken more than one on others. But I'm certainly not going to spout off on the internet and pronounce someone wrong for a decision that he/she made as a adult -- presumably knowing the consequences (and having to deal with the subsequent pain).
Eh. It's life. Another case of video ending up on the internet so hundreds of non-involved people can pick apart the actions of an average citizen ... it's not about strategies and tactics -- most citizens go through their lives and don't even know what those words mean. Now, if the video's subject was a trained law enforcement officer or military special warfare operator, maybe we'd be justified in critiquing him, but since he clearly wasn't, what do all of us internet commandos really learn from the video?
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
In a nutshell...it yet another demonstration that most of the people who invoke the sacred cool words like strategies and tactics know little to nothing about either. The other lesson for the internet commando (who might...and it is a BIG might, actually set ego and what they learned from GTA and FPS games aside) is that they really, truly have no experience with this kind of extreme violence and inside their little bubble of tacticool fantasy where, they think they are operators they are little more than good prey and good victims.
Yeah, some folks are willing to "take an ass-whipping"...but when it can be avoided smartly, it's pretty dumb to do it. In fact, it's downright retarded. Moreover, when that ass-whooping turns into a vicious beating and potentially deadly, or at least crippling stomping, then it's gone beyond an ass-whooping into having to live with subsequent DEATH, rather than subsequent pain.
Set the guy in the Astro shirt aside...put a blank Mister X in the same situation. That video is a learning opportunity for anyone outside of sworn law enforcement and corrections (who actually see and experience true extreme violence on a regular basis and who live and work in the real world) that the world is not the lollipop land they believe it to be and that extreme violence can be less than a second away from them at any time...literally. It is also learning opportunity that might, just might, give one of the dwellers in lollipop land a small bit of motivation to actually get some training and become a competent defender, or at least competent at avoidance of a similar situation.
"You must learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself" - Sam Levenson (1911-1980). How apropos to this video. That guy might not have lived long enough to have learned from his mistake.
Old Dog
Member
Um, what? Are you talkin' to me? Or just preaching again?
Anyway, whoa, dude. No idea what it is you're attempting to get across. Those "outside of sworn law enforcement and corrections (who actually see and experience true extreme violence on a regular basis and who live and work in the real world) ..." aren't the folks who are going to be viewing videos such as the one in the OP ... A video on the internet a "learning opportunity?" No, the "dwellers in lollipop land" learn only from personal experience. And most aren't going to have their actions guided by what some video they view on YouTube.
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