What would you do?

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This is what happens when you let 2 different 2 year olds become 4 year olds.
But what was their first racks like. I know that they need age, nutrition, and cover to get big. What I want to know is how does genetics affect this? I am wondering if this 6 pt is gong to pass on his 6 pt genes. What are odds that he will grow more points? I have several books on deer but none have really given me a satisfactory answer.
 
But what was their first racks like. I know that they need age, nutrition, and cover to get big. What I want to know is how does genetics affect this? I am wondering if this 6 pt is gong to pass on his 6 pt genes. What are odds that he will grow more points? I have several books on deer but none have really given me a satisfactory answer.
Well you base it on what the genetics/nutrition are like where you are. If you have good GENETICS (you said there were big deer there), you have to give the deer TIME to let those genetics manifest with good NUTRITION. That deer is young. To young to tell what he will be. Thin neck, not much mass, thin body. All characteristics of young bucks. But, as a 2 year old, he's already a decent 6.

I've seen deer go from what you have to wall hangers in a year. Sometimes it takes 2-3 years. I've also seen them go from what you have, to just a larger version of what you have. If you shoot him this year, you'll never know. Don't worry about him breeding does at a young age. Because he may very well may have those good genetics. I see lots of potential in him. He's not even close to a cull in my mind.
 
I am wondering if this 6 pt is gong to pass on his 6 pt genes. What are odds that he will grow more points?

Does this matter? I mean, really? Is it something to worry about or think deeply about? Who cares how many points it's carrying around on top of its head? Just can't come up with a way to fathom out the enthusiasm that's built up around these things.

Heck, I didn't grow those points, that animal did. All I did was kill it. Yaaaaay, me!

Someday I'm going to have a Black Angus mounted, with horns intact. Call it my "Big Ol' Two-Pointer!" Man, look at the spread and girth of those horns!

:rofl:
 
Does this matter? I mean, really? Is it something to worry about or think deeply about? Who cares how many points it's carrying around on top of its head? Just can't come up with a way to fathom out the enthusiasm that's built up around these things.

Heck, I didn't grow those points, that animal did. All I did was kill it. Yaaaaay, me!

Someday I'm going to have a Black Angus mounted, with horns intact. Call it my "Big Ol' Two-Pointer!" Man, look at the spread and girth of those horns!

:rofl:
It matters when you are trying to improve your herd. You wouldn't breed a scrub bull to a registered angus unless you are totally ignorant about cattle.
 
Does this matter? I mean, really? Is it something to worry about or think deeply about? Who cares how many points it's carrying around on top of its head? Just can't come up with a way to fathom out the enthusiasm that's built up around these things.

Heck, I didn't grow those points, that animal did. All I did was kill it. Yaaaaay, me!

Someday I'm going to have a Black Angus mounted, with horns intact. Call it my "Big Ol' Two-Pointer!" Man, look at the spread and girth of those horns!

:rofl:
To some, it definitely does matter. Not so much to me. But I do enjoying seeing deer reach their potential.
 
I get the genetics angle, just maybe not the enthusiasm over points and big racks, especially as we're just going to kill them anyway.

I was raised among some pretty die-hard trophy deer hunters, though, and I think that sort of cauterized my appreciation for the sporting and calculating herd management angle of it. :D If I was still in touch with them, they'd be outraged to know that the only mounted rack I own fell off the barn wall a few years ago and I think I mowed over it...
 
I get the genetics angle, just maybe not the enthusiasm over points and big racks, especially as we're just going to kill them anyway.

I was raised among some pretty die-hard trophy deer hunters, though, and I think that sort of cauterized my appreciation for the sporting and calculating herd management angle of it. :D If I was still in touch with them, they'd be outraged to know that the only mounted rack I own fell off the barn wall a few years ago and I think I mowed over it...
And I completely understand your side of that. And we don't really differ. I don't place an emphasis on points, spread, tine length, or mass. But I do focus on shooting mature deer, and taking deer out of the herd that will cause a decrease in overall heard health. Does are included in that evaluation. Good genes + nutrition =healthy herds.

There is also something to be said for taking large racked, mature bucks, especially when using archery equipment. As they say, "Big bucks don't get to be big bucks, by being dumb bucks". So the taking of a large, mature buck, especially at archery distances, is something, I feel, to be proud of. And I sure do enjoy walking into a house and seeing large, heavy altered mounts on a wall. It's very aesthetically pleasing to my eyes.

Some people could care less. "If it's brown, it's down". And how many of those places that people predominantly hunt with that mentality, have a large, healthy (key word) deer population? Not very many.

Now, let me comment on my last comment. If you're hunting for food, are taking new hunters, maybe you're a new hunter yourself, my last statement doesn't apply. Put that food on the table. Enjoy that time out there. Get you, or the other new hunter, that sweet taste of success. But if you want to see what something can become (short of ground venison) you have to give it time.
 
Of course, there's also something to be asked about why we work so hard to kill off the very best bucks we can find. Not the bragging/"accomplishment" angle -- that's simple.

But from a genetics standpoint. As someone else said, the farmer doesn't eat his very best bull.

Now I've heard over and over that, "well, those big bucks are probably getting past breeding age and they're probably going to die soon anyway, and if I don't kill them something else probably will," etc. But that always rings totally hollow.

If he was your buck in with your herd in your pasture, you'd not kill him until he'd sired every last generation he physically could. But because he's wild, ... well, I'd better whack him before someone else gets him! Certainly a Tragedy of the Commons situation.
 
This illustrates how different deer hunting is around the country. Where I came from, there's no way in a million years anyone would pass up a deer like that. You might only see a legal to shoot deer once in ten seasons, if you're lucky.

I just can't fathom what it's like to hunt in a place where you can say something like, "I almost shot the ten pointer, but then I noticed the 12 pointer standing a little beside the 8 pointer."
 
Of course, there's also something to be asked about why we work so hard to kill off the very best bucks we can find.
And that statement is a fools quest. Which is why I said "mature". And not "the biggest rack". Taking a 150" 3 year old is not conducive to a healthy population. But having 150" 3 year olds is a sign of good genetics and overall good health.

The ability to judge a buck by body size/stature and not rack size is key to harvesting mature deer. Thick necks, slightly sagging bellies, swayed backs, thick haunches, are signs you are in the presence of at least a 4 year old and most likely 5-6 year old. I don't consider a deer to be mature until they, are at the very least, 4 years old. Those deer are in their prime from 4-5. With enough unpressured area, adequate nutrition, and good genetics, they can very well breed to the age of 6 or 7. Most however, don't make it that far. By the age of 4, those deer have passed their genes on.

One must also take into consideration that the deer captured on trail cam are only a fraction of the deer in those woods. During the rut, mature bucks can, and do, come from miles away to chase does in estrus. So what you see isn't even an accurate representation of the genes that are probably on the property. Which is all the more reason to hum Jim Reeves as you let the young ones "Just walk on by".

If someone shoots that little guy, so be it. But that doesn't mean we all have to do that. That mentality quickly morphs into the "If it's brown, it's down." mentality.
 
This illustrates how different deer hunting is around the country. Where I came from, there's no way in a million years anyone would pass up a deer like that. You might only see a legal to shoot deer once in ten seasons, if you're lucky.
If that's true, and it's because they simply aren't there, your DNR/Wildlife Dept is doing a piss poor job. If it's because the area is small and/or flooded by hunters, well, that sucks.

One solution is for the wildlife department to institute a "draw untagged doe only" management policy for at least 3 years. In that 3 years they should have a breeding program in place where wild does are captured, tagged, inciminated with semen from quality outside sources, and then released. But your DNR may have no interest in that. It also requires all the hunters in the given area to abide by the policy. That might pose a bigger problem.

Edit to add: They should also include a nutrition program with food plots and fruit bearing trees if food supply is inadequate.
 
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You say it's a two year old. Does that mean in reality it's a 1 1/2 year old or a 2 1/2 year old? Big difference there. While that is a ho-hum rack for a 2 1/2 year old, it's pretty impressive if it's only a 1 1/2 year old.Do you know for sure it's age, or just guessing? For the most part, age, physical heath, stress and nutrition, play more of a role in antler size/configuration than genes. This deer may be displaying a recessive gene and may throw offspring with dominate genes producing huge non typical racks. Unless you know his ancestry, you're just stabbing in the dark. Will it grow more points if you let it go? Odds are it will, especially if it's really only 1 1/2 years old. Most twelve/fourteen pointers do not have 12/14 points on their first two racks. Those brutes with big drop tines have nuttin' but a small bump there for several years.

If this was really all about herd improvement, odds are you wouldn't even ask us. If the deer really is 2 1/2 years old and you are trying to raise only big antlered deer, that buck should already be dead. One needs to decide for themselves whether or not it is "big enough". Asking peers to dictate what you shoot is hunting for them, not for you. Folks nowadays make such a big deal about horns/rack size and put little emphasis on the quality of the hunt itself. Is it any more of a challenge to shoot a big 12 pointer that comes to the same feeder regularly than this buck? Does it take more skill? Used to be deer got big by being smart and lucky. Now they get big because they are allowed to live until we deem their racks "big enough". Those deer do not learn from their mistakes, just the opposite. They get dumbed down because they make fatal mistakes, and yet are still alive, only because they are not yet "big enough". Here in Wisconsin 50 years ago, there wasn't a deer hunter alive that would not be proud to take that buck home. Nowadays, many times, folks are belittled and chastised for taking deer like that.

For me, it depends on more than just the size of the rack. A mature deer, regardless of rack size is a good deer. Any deer 2 1/2 years old or over is a mature deer. A 2 1/2 year old with 12 points ain't smarter than a 3 1/2 year old with 8 just because the rack scores higher. The average age of the bucks in the area I'm hunting makes a difference as does the overall population, hunting pressure and methods employed. I've had mature does on public land challenge me more than 3 1/2 year old bucks on limited access private land. It also depends on what point in the season it is, what other deer I've been seeing and how much, if any, other venison I have in the freezer. While I like to shoot the biggest and oldest buck possible, I also like to eat venison. Seeing very few deer overall in an area usually dictates shooting nothing. Seeing tons of does means shooting one of them instead of a buck like the one in the OP.
 
If you want to shoot the deer shoot him because you want to. That whole culling BS is overwhelmingly an excuse to shoot a deer when one is worried somebody else will think you should have passed.
Pretty much every 1 1/2 year old buck around here has a 6 or 8 point rack about 14 inches wide. Very few of them make it because they become ridiculously stupid during the rut. Two ways to look at it. You can say that if I don't shoot him somebody else will. But, if I shoot him he certainly won't get any bigger. So, if a man thinks there is some control over an area such that those who hunt will pass those little basket racks then it is cool to see what they will become. If everybody and his brother hunts the area it is wishful thinking.
 
If that's true, and it's because they simply aren't there, your DNR/Wildlife Dept is doing a piss poor job. If it's because the area is small and/or flooded by hunters, well, that sucks.

One solution is for the wildlife department to institute a "draw untagged doe only" management policy for at least 3 years. In that 3 years they should have a breeding program in place where wild does are captured, tagged, inciminated with semen from quality outside sources, and then released. But your DNR may have no interest in that. It also requires all the hunters in the given area to abide by the policy. That might pose a bigger problem.

Edit to add: They should also include a nutrition program with food plots and fruit bearing trees if food supply is inadequate.

Where I grew up, the biggest limiting factor was the winters. There's only so many ways to boost a deer herd when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground for a third of the year.
 
Go get your soil sampled, figure out what minerals your ground is missing, introduce these lacking minerals, grow great food plots after the introduction and watch your deer become slobs! This deer can produce B&C quality offspring in 2 years. MSU deer lab did a study/experiment on deer taken from a poor quality soil area that grew small antlers and had lower body mass and provided them with high quality forage and provided them with the proper nutrition and after 2 generations those deer were producing offspring that were as big or bigger than deer taken from areas with high quality soil. It was an interesting video. I'll link it below.

 
Boy I am glad we don't have to measure deer antlers here in Indiana, must be hard to get them to stand still and measure them to see if you can go ahead and shoot them. :scrutiny:

I am more into the meat aspect of deer, that would make good meat, not too tough. If a monster comes along that a neighbor hasn't shot, heck yea I will shoot it, but I would settle for a nice plump doe too.

I might have a room full of African game heads, but the only whitetail antlers I have is just the plain antlers from my first buck when I was 14, a small 8 pointer. Made it into a hat rack. I have killed many larger deer, but never bothered with taxidermy.

13" is roughly a spread just outside the width of the ears. It's a judgement call. I shot one several years ago that went 12 1/2". But, even if I'd ever seen a game warden down here, I doubt he'd have written me up on it. Sure looked ear to ear, just had a small head. He was an 8 point several years old. He was my first crossbow kill, first bow kill of ANY kind. :D I can legally shoot doe here in bow season and we are LOADED up with way too many doe. I have my freezer full of hog meat, need to buy a bigger freezer. :D
 
Pulled cards this morning and had a couple young 8's come in at the same time. Dork, the six pt is there every afternoon. I picked out a few of the best shots to share. All three of these bucks plus a nubbin and a spike have visited this last week. Not seeing any does down low where this camera is. The time stamp is off. IMG_0243 (800x312).jpg IMG_0265 (800x470).jpg IMG_0155 (800x415).jpg
 
You know, I always wondered why folks killed the big racks. That just selects for deer with the small racks. Now days, we have all this management to make up for that. Makes sense if you want the big racks. But, I'm happy with a spike (legal here). It's meat in the freezer. :D Going after the big antlers is just money, really, more you pay, the more you can play. You can spend 10 grand on a deer here in Texas. I'd rather spend that 10 grand on prime beef. :rofl:

As to genetics, breeding, and cattle, well, it ain't quite the same. Cattle are selectively bred for their meat quality. They usually have their horns polled, cut off. If they were bred for their horns, those stringy, tough long horns that guy raises down the road would be in high demand for more than just pets for some Texas ex. :D

I think it's the money thing that turns me off on trophy hunting. I've never been a man of means. My wife's cousin was a podiatrist, made lots of money, had an exorbitantly expensive managed trophy lease down in south Texas for years and flies around to Pennsylvania and Saskatchewan and other places looking for horns to shoot. He don't even like venison, gives it away to hunters for the hungry, which is fine by me. I admire him for not wasting it. :D

He's even been a partner in a South African ranch, sold his interest. He's got stuff on his wall I don't even know what it is, various African antelope and such. He's retired now and has a might more limited budget. No more trips to Africa, though he does still chase trophy whitetail. I think, though, that he's more into fishing now days, sorta has bored of the trophy thing.

See, difference in him and me is he wasn't born to it, didn't have a mentor at an early age. I grew up a country boy with a rifle in my hand chasing squirrels, then a shotgun chasing birds. It's sorta part of my make up to kill my own dinner. I have a few racks around mounted, they'd all get laughed at by a book chaser. So be it, they make ME happy because they represent memories. I'm sure his trophies represent more exotic memories, but my memories are just as important to me, the memories I could afford over the years. :D
 
Depends on where you are at as well. Here you can kill as many doe as you want, basically unlimited as long as you continue to buy more tags. So, I don't see much reason to shoot a small buck for meat. And, killing a buck just to say you killed a buck is not much different than killing a big buck so you can say you killed a big buck.
 
Depends on where you are at as well. Here you can kill as many doe as you want, basically unlimited as long as you continue to buy more tags. So, I don't see much reason to shoot a small buck for meat. And, killing a buck just to say you killed a buck is not much different than killing a big buck so you can say you killed a big buck.
Here we can take 6 deer state wide if you hunt different zones but only 2 can be bucks. I fill the freezer with does and don't take a buck unless he is a nice one. Hunting a mature buck is like hunting a completely different animal than a yearling or a doe. If you want a challenge try hunting them on public land.. Some of the old bucks will turn completely nocturnal when they get any pressure. The owner of one farm that I hunt stated last December that he didn't see the big bucks anymore. I set up cameras and had 9 bucks in three days and 5 were shooters. He about dropped his jaw when I showed him the pictures. Guess what? The majority of the pix of the big bucks were at night.
 
That 6 point's daddy is also daddy to alot of other deer ,and if he's always being seen by you he is an easier mark than the ones you don't see.He probably aint gonna be around for long anyways..
 
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