Improved 9mm ammunition

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Don't know the caliber/ammunition used, but I definitely would not want a slower incapacitation time than obtained here:
Viewing the video it appears the bullet that stopped the attacker struck him in the head which causes him to instantly collapse.
Takes 6 rounds of 9mm to stop skinny guy with knife.
I can't help but think a larger bullet might have been more quickly effective.
That's wishful thinking. Unless we know the specifics of the wound tracks and what organs were damaged and how badly they were damaged we'll never know.
This immediate result is preferred if defending against lethal force, appears to be a 1911
The reaction to being shot and lack of any movement afterward suggests the bullet hit a central nervous system structure.
 
This is a faulty calculation of permanent wound cavity volume because the diameter of the “cylinder” is not fixed from beginning to end, for reasons I described previously. Duncan MacPherson, in his book “Bullet Penetration”, determined that the bullet shape factor (phi) of an expanded handgun bullet is 0.82. The maximum diameter of the permanent cavity located at the beginning of the wound track is about 82% of the bullet’s expanded diameter and the permanent cavity decreases in diameter as the bullet penetrates.

Wound ballistics researcher Dr. Gary Roberts observed that most bullets recovered from bodies as a result of police action shootings show an expanded diameter that closely matches the diameter of bullets that are shot into ordnance gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth. These bullets do not expand as much as bullets fired into bare gelatin.

Years ago wound ballistics researcher Dr. Martin Fackler suggested performing a study in which shooters would fire at a life-size silhouette paper target that had a life-size depiction of major cardiovascular structures accurately located on the reverse side of the target (which would be unseen by the shooters). Then the bullet holes in each shooter’s target would be studied to determine if a larger caliber bullet would have made a difference by measuring those bullets that barely nicked or just missed a major cardiovascular structure. I conducted this study with my agency during one of our quarterly firearms qualification shoots. In talking with Fackler prior to our experiment he estimated that a bullet’s “effective diameter” (not expanded diameter) would have to overlap a major cardiovascular structure by at least 0.20” for it to crush open the wall. Officers in my department were armed with 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP duty handguns. We used Macpherson’s bullet shape factor of 0.82 to calculate “effective diameter” from the expanded diameter of our ammunition as tested in bare ordnance gelatin (which represents best case conditions for bullet expansion). Our data showed that a .45 ACP bullet would have the potential to provide a 3-5% increase in wounding effectiveness compared to 9mm. So for every 100 shots fired, in best case conditions for bullet expansion, a .45 ACP bullet might make a difference in 3 to 5 of those shots. Had we used expanded bullet diameter from gelatin tests involving four layers of heavy denim fabric instead of bare gelatin then the increase in effectiveness of .45 ACP versus 9mm would have been less.

I understand the limitations. I thought I made it clear that it was a best-case-scenario thought exercise.

I am a big fan of Fackler. Interesting post.
 
Years ago wound ballistics researcher Dr. Martin Fackler suggested performing a study in which shooters would fire at a life-size silhouette paper target that had a life-size depiction of major cardiovascular structures accurately located on the reverse side of the target (which would be unseen by the shooters). Then the bullet holes in each shooter’s target would be studied to determine if a larger caliber bullet would have made a difference by measuring those bullets that barely nicked or just missed a major cardiovascular structure. I conducted this study with my agency during one of our quarterly firearms qualification shoots. In talking with Fackler prior to our experiment he estimated that a bullet’s “effective diameter” (not expanded diameter) would have to overlap a major cardiovascular structure by at least 0.20” for it to crush open the wall. Officers in my department were armed with 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP duty handguns. We used Macpherson’s bullet shape factor of 0.82 to calculate “effective diameter” from the expanded diameter of our ammunition as tested in bare ordnance gelatin (which represents best case conditions for bullet expansion). Our data showed that a .45 ACP bullet would have the potential to provide a 3-5% increase in wounding effectiveness compared to 9mm. So for every 100 shots fired, in best case conditions for bullet expansion, a .45 ACP bullet might make a difference in 3 to 5 of those shots. Had we used expanded bullet diameter from gelatin tests involving four layers of heavy denim fabric instead of bare gelatin then the increase in effectiveness of .45 ACP versus 9mm would have been less.
Interesting. I performed a much simplified version of this test using probability mathematics, unexpanded bullet diameters and a very basic "target". The result was similarly unimpressive. In spite of what intuition might suggest, the odds are very low that the larger bullet size is going to do much for you in terms of damaging something that the smaller bullet wouldn't.
The temporary cavity from an expanding handgun bullet in common combat calibers (the context we're discussing here) can indeed produce permanent disruption - however it cannot be depended on due to a variety of factors.
Correct. Too many people think that because one can't plan on the temporary cavity causing permanent damage with common service pistol calibers that it doesn't cause permanent damage. Sometimes it does cause damage--even severe and profound damage. And sometimes it doesn't. Which is why it's correct to state that the effect is unreliable.
 
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Instead of saying 9mm is some percent of 45ACP, turn the calculation around - a 45ACP is 160% of 9mm, both when doing the calculation for unexpanded and expanded rounds.
 
Viewing the video it appears the bullet that stopped the attacker struck him in the head which causes him to instantly collapse.

That's wishful thinking. Unless we know the specifics of the wound tracks and what organs were damaged and how badly they were damaged we'll never know.

Yea, I know.

How about these observations from the videos:
Video #1 if the officer had been armed with a pocket 9mm he would have been at slide lock when attacker stopped, given same accuracy.
Video #2 the firearms instructor and competitor fired 10 rounds and made 6 hits, if he had been armed with a pocket 9mm not enough ammo.

Lesson, third line:
These two examples were both one skinny guy attacker with a knife taking 6 hits to stop and 100% hits is not likely.
One could realistically have two attackers in "It Aint Gonna Happen Here, USA" (Including daytime in "good" areas)
Minimum of 10 rounds before slide lock or reload is desirable (and legal even in Mag Limit, USA) in a primary pistol, regardless of caliber.
 
Anyone mentioned that Paul Harrell video where he compares 9mm to 40, especially simulating one of the FBI referenced 9mm failures during the miami shootout?

Later in the video he does a "meat test" to recreate those conditions with both 115gr jhp and 147gr ballstic point for the 9mm part. The 40 breezes the test, btw.
 
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The 40 has long been considered to have too much pressure for what you get out of it. Each viable defense handgun cartridge has improved to the point reasonable shooters know the larger calibers are best, excluding the problem-plagued 40. Today, the stance that the best nine is comparable to the best 45acp is silly. The nine has found favor for many reasons, none of which make it the better round. We all know those off quoted advantages the nine has. It is a war of words, not reality. A 9mm shooter must rely on multiple hits.
 
There seems to be this misconception that one choice ALWAYS puts them down with one shot and the other ALWAYS requires 10 hits. All any incremental increase does is increase your odds of stopping the aggressor more quickly.

One of the disconnects between self defense and hunting that seems to exist here involves the ability to 'make' follow-up shots. Hunters KNOW for a fact that the first shot has to count, so we want the most terminal effect with one shot as we can get. No so with the self defense crowd. There is a HUGE reliance on capacity and the assumption that one will be able to make multiple hits into the vital area to get the job done. Hunters KNOW that after the first shot, the target can go anywhere and do anything. The self defense crowd seems to think that the target will stand still like the 7yd silhouette at the local indoor range. We see a bleed-over of this effect when the topic is in comparing the high capacity 10mm auto to revolvers for critter defense. The 10mm's protagonists focus and argument is centered around capacity. Marksmanship takes a back seat and that is a mistake.

Sorry but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
 
From Police Magazine:

This man was shot with .40 S&W rounds to center mass, was not incapacitated at the scene, and survived the shooting.

Thank you for posting that, I'd seen it before and couldn't find it.
When I see that, I do not think that a new & improved 9mm in the same spot would have worked any better (quicker incapacitation)
It reinforces my preference for larger / more powerful bullets Glock 21 (45 acp) or 20 (10mm) with at least 13+1 before slidelock.
 
Each viable defense handgun cartridge has improved to the point reasonable shooters know the larger calibers are best, excluding the problem-plagued 40.

Other than cost of ammo being more expensive than 9mm (and less than 45) and the issue of many manufacturers simply rechambering 9mm pistols to 40 without accounting for the new round I'm not sure what the problems are.
 
Hunters KNOW for a fact that the first shot has to count...
Hunters get to kit up in advance without the requirement to carry on with their normal everyday activities, day in and day out in full kit. They also generally ambush their targets instead of being ambushed by them. Rapid follow-up shots are generally less important, to the point that single-shot self-defense weapons are virtually unheard of while single-shot hunting weapons are not terribly uncommon.

The result is that it's quite easy to carry a very large and relatively powerful weapon while hunting and it makes sense to focus very heavily on the effectiveness of a carefully aimed single shot, taken under conditions which are, to at least some extent, the choice of the hunter. For obvious reasons, self-defense situations are very, VERY different.
Sorry but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
There is a lot of truth to this statement, however, missing is a reality in a situation where one is ambushed and must respond rapidly under extreme stress and likely under conditions chosen to favor the attacker and disadvantage the defender.

While it's important not to focus on capacity exclusively when it comes to self-defense, it's just as much of a mistake to pretend that never missing is a reasonable self-defense strategy.
 
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We see a bleed-over of this effect when the topic is in comparing the high capacity 10mm auto to revolvers for critter defense. The 10mm's protagonists focus and argument is centered around capacity. Marksmanship takes a back seat and that is a mistake.

Sorry but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Too much generalization. I don't recall anyone ever belittling marksmanship. With 10mm (esp glock 20) what you get is 15 rds of 357 mag or so power in a lighter weight and I believe cheaper package. A revolver doesn't magically make someone a dramatically better marksman.
 
Hunters get to kit up in advance without the requirement to carry on with their normal everyday activities, day in and day out in full kit. They also generally ambush their targets instead of being ambushed by them. Rapid follow-up shots are generally less important, to the point that single-shot self-defense weapons are virtually unheard of while single-shot hunting weapons are not terribly uncommon.

The result is that it's quite easy to carry a very large and relatively powerful weapon while hunting and it makes sense to focus very heavily on the effectiveness of a carefully aimed single shot, taken under conditions which are, to at least some extent, the choice of the hunter. For obvious reasons, self-defense situations are very, VERY different.There is a lot of truth to this statement, however, missing is a reality in a situation where one is ambushed and must respond rapidly under extreme stress and likely under conditions chosen to favor the attacker and disadvantage the defender.

While it's important not to focus on capacity exclusively when it comes to self-defense, it's just as much of a mistake to pretend that never missing is a reasonable self-defense strategy.
All true but that doesn't at all help the argument that size doesn't matter.

Capacity is never a bad thing but not if it's going to be used as a crutch for poor shooting or an inadequate cartridge.


Too much generalization. I don't recall anyone ever belittling marksmanship. With 10mm (esp glock 20) what you get is 15 rds of 357 mag or so power in a lighter weight and I believe cheaper package. A revolver doesn't magically make someone a dramatically better marksman.
Not directly but indirectly. Way too much focus on capacity and the low recoil of the 9mm allowing for quicker follow-up shots. Shots you may or may not get or place properly. No, revolvers don't magically make someone a better marksman but they don't have enough capacity to be used as a crutch either. All the rhetoric about capacity and follow-up shots makes it sound as you're planning on missing, a lot.
 
All true but that doesn't at all help the argument that size doesn't matter.
Size does matter.

Clearly if one goes far enough up in power or size, or low enough in power or size, then those differences start to play a significant role. However, as long as the comparison is constrained to the service pistol caliber cartridges, the real-world effect has not been proven to be significant. It was, in fact, the inability of the FBI to prove/find a significant effect that prompted them to move to 9mm.
Capacity is never a bad thing but not if it's going to be used as a crutch for poor shooting or an inadequate cartridge.
I agree 100%
 
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All the rhetoric about capacity and follow-up shots makes it sound as you're planning on missing, a lot.

Bad reasoning. Who is doing this or is this something imagined? Do people really want to miss a lot? This thread is certainly off the rails now.
 
Bad reasoning. Who is doing this or is this something imagined? Do people really want to miss a lot? This thread is certainly off the rails now.
No it isn't. Not imagined at all but observed. Want to miss? No. Obsessed with having all the opportunities to hit as possible, seemingly at the expense of marksmanship, yes.
 
No it isn't. Not imagined at all but observed. Want to miss? No. Obsessed with having all the opportunities to hit as possible, seemingly at the expense of marksmanship, yes.

Hasty conclusion jumped to for no real reason? Check. 9mm ammo has improved, bullet choices have improved, but 9mm still hasn't all of a sudden become a dramatically improved instrument of speedy death like some would have hoped (reference the video I posted above).

Don't look at me either, I never owned a 9mm before this summer and the crazy sales on these sub compact 9's. All I see with 9mm vs whatever are compromises that seem pretty well known. And I made those compromises when I chose a subcompact. At least they're cheap to shoot, and cheaper and more pleasant to shoot than that 380 mouse gun I have.
 
I was told that the FBI abandoned the 40 S&W because of improved 9mm ammunition. So what's changed?
I was told in a class at the beginning of this month, that the FBI considered abandoning the .40 S&W because of recoil issues, and thus began working with Speer on new ammo with lighter recoil. THUS the Speer Gold Dot G2 in 147 grain JHP in 9mm was finally developed and accepted, and now the Speer Gold Dot G2 147 grain 9mm is the FBI round, as well as the reason many law enforcement agencies and departments are switching back to 9mm.

Please Note: There is reportedly a difference between Speer Gold Dot, and Speer Gold Dot G2. I cannot find the article written two years ago that explained that OTC 147 grain 9mm Gold Dot in a Glock 19 didn't perform as expected while it did very well from a Glock 17, hence the upgrade and the addition to the name of "G2 " for law enforcement so that the smaller Glock (albeit less than 1" smaller) would perform on par with the Glock 17.

LD
 
The temporary cavity from an expanding handgun bullet in common combat calibers (the context we're discussing here) can indeed produce permanent disruption - however it cannot be depended on due to a variety of factors.

The increased damage shown in the photo happened because the intercostal muscle tissue occupies a small area between the ribs. The small amount of muscle tissue combined with it being restrained by the ribs and connective tissues did not allow it to stretch and absorb the temporary cavity. It relieved the stress of the temporary cavity by tearing and rupturing.

Liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen and brain tissues do not tolerate stretching well and can be damaged by the temporary cavity provided the temporary cavity is located along the wound track where these tissues are encountered by the penetrating bullet. Muscle, nerve, lung, blood vessel, and bowel tissues are elastic and and are able to tolerate being stretched by the temporary cavity with little more damage than bruising.

The reality is you cannot rely on a handgun bullet to damage anything other than what it physically contacts and crushes. With modern expanding ammunition there is very little practical difference in effectiveness between common combat handgun calibers.

Not sure what this proves since none of the internal organs are evident for examination. o_O

It would have been interesting to examine the bullet's pathway through the internal organs and any damage proximate to the permanent channel that might've occurred in those tissues.

I came across a new article and remembered this thread; I assume its not too old to revive.

New example of 10mm (40 S&W) deer including internal pics and details.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

Nosler 135 gr. @ 1,367 fps pulverized a hole in entry lung about 1.5 inches (pic Figure 3) but recovered diameter of bullet was .58

From article:
"We also observed mild hemorrhaging along the abdominal walls and rear rib cage on the right
side. This is the area directly opposite from the entrance wound, but several inches caudal
(rearward) from the point where the bullet exited the rib cage. Thus this region was out of
reach of both the permanent crush cavity and the temporary stretch cavity, and it seems that
the most likely cause of the hemorrhaging was the pressure wave"

Hydrostatic shock effect ^ from a pistol bullet.


135 gr. @ 1,367 fps caused damage to tissue that it did not actually touch.
9mm not likely to deliver that kind of power, but there are concealable options that can:
40 S&W loaded hot (Underwood)
10mm - can easily deliver that
357 Sig can produce 1,367 with a 125 gr. and "regular" ammo.

When gun season opens, I'm taking a recently acquired Delta Elite (love it), 5+ shot averages:
Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE
Handload Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,400 fps / 675# KE
According to calculator, 155 XTP should retain about 1,322 fps / 602# KE at 20 yards.

 
You hear a lot of blather and crowing about "FBI training" this, and "the intensity of FBI training" that,
and "extensive FBI training". Yet, they choked on 10MM caliber, and are now down to the even tamer
9mm again. Hmmmm...
 
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