Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.

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Single digits SD is great but any number close to 10 from either side is going to be very good that is what one normally gets from Federal Gold Medal SMKs and Black Hills that are classic match winning loads.
 
competent instruction helps. but ballistic calculators are pretty good these days. as long as you have a 100 yard zero and know your bullet and MV, you can get on target at 1000 pretty dang fast. (unless you live somewhere with switchy winds and are shooting a 308 haha)

to be perfectly honest, it's been years since i collected "data" to determine dope. that's probably a whole nother thread.

I'm not recommending everyone go from 100 to 1000 yards right away. just that you don't have to spend days or hundreds of rounds at short ranges before moving back to long. my experience taking new shooters to the range and teaching classes is consistent over many years that i can let them shoot my gun and give them a wind call and they will instantly hit targets at 1000+. in fact, that's normally what i do, since they usually don't own their own stuff yet and i'm helping them pick out what they want. they tend to enjoy hitting long range targets the most.
Unfortunately collecting dope is not a thread. I wouldn't even start that thread because I can't trust the crowd on here to even agree that 300y isnt long range. pssh, regular rifle qual for the m16/m4 is 500m. Thats not long range either.
As far as computers go. Getting close enough and correcting fire is simply just plinking around and turning a turret until you get on target, for that moment of that day. That doesn't negate the short range work up for more serious shooting. 100y zero. check tracking/run a tall target test. Get a correction factor if needed. I mean with like a 2% error in tracking, that would put you at 1.02 mils per rev. Dial in 10 mils for said drop...your not actually at 10 mils now are you. We are at 10.2. If your just plinking the target then its not anything youre going to notice, but if you are 2/10 of a mil off, that is about 7.2 inches off target at 1000y. Chrono. Use ballistic software, get solution for 400y. Shoot a group at a three inch square. Probably fail. Go to calculator tune it. Try again. Get closer. Move to 600y same thing, then 500y. Then 10in at least at 1000y. Same thing. Or some variation of this. It can be a painful amount of work and might not be needed to physically shoot at distance, but 1000y isnt that far. Its not as people imagine it to be. Its simply the beginning for shooting further out. Its when spin drift starts to be noticeable but not sever. Its when the legendary coriolus becomes noticeable...ish..sort of. It's when complex wind environments will become crucial to read. No minute of man at that distance.
 
last year I decided to finally purchase the target rifle/tactical rifle/heavy hunter that I have been wanting. I picked everything out and in the end, I chose the 308win. I looked hard at the 6.5, 6mm variants, 7mm-08 and chose the 308win. why?

First, I am not competing against anyone at this time so I am not disadvantaged. second, it is slightly more difficult to shoot a 308 win at distance than a 6.5/6mm and I am wanting to learn the art of precision rifle shooting. I want to hunt with this rifle as well, and a 308win has more energy at hunting ranges, <500yds, more like 300 and in. finally, I expect 5,000+ rounds of barrel life out of my 308win.

with ample barrel life and plentiful load data, I do not worry about round counts. compare that to a 6mm creedmore, 1200rds and you are usually done for competitions.

in one year, I have shot about 550rds, with a 6mm i am almost halfway through with the barrel, with my 308 I have 9 more years to shoot without worrying about the barrel unless I decide to let it rust or ruin it by overcleaning it. that is a lot of learning and understanding that I can develop of my gun, and how it behaves at distance.

when I rebarrel, I might go with a 6.5 or 6mm. I might order a prefit in those calibers next year, but right now I could not be happier even though I am not shooting the "best" or most "advanced" cartridge. the 6.5 and 6mm are here to stay, I agree. I just like my 308 and if you want to learn, a 308 win is capable of consistent hits out to 1200yds, but the shooter must be up to the task. I am the weak link and a 6mm wind cheater might help me make hits, but not teach me as much as a 308.

I would educate new shooters before I recommended a cartridge. you can't go wrong, IMO, with a 6.5 creed/lapua/260, 6mm et al, 308 win. be willing to buy ammo online or reload and shoot a lot.
 
z7 sums up my rationale for going with .308 for my custom build as well. I also wanted to leave the door open for an occasional F-TR match, which happens at a range 1 1/2 hrs from me on the 1st weekend every month. Haven't done it yet, but I want to
 
There is simply no advantage to having a ballistically superior cartridge for LEARNING long distance. It just increases the size of the range you need to have access to in order to learn. Shooters would be well served to spend lots of time on a .22 trainer followed by a .223.

that is not true at all. the advantage to shooting a 6 or 6.5mm over a 308 for learning is less recoil
1. very few people can pick up their trace with a 308 even with a brake because of recoil and because the rainbow trajectory leaves the scope FOV
2. you need a lot of repetitions and more recoil is always worse. new 308 shooters will start flinching a long time before 6mm shooters.

This was the original statement, the one I disagreed with.

Perhaps the OP should have stated his opposition differently.

yes, it is precisely opposite. recreational shooters can do anything they want and who really cares? but people shooting something important should choose the best tool for the job and 308 hasn't been that for a decade. it's not even the most well rounded. it's old and better things have come along, and professionals are switching.

Single digits SD is great but any number close to 10 from either side is going to be very good that is what one normally gets from Federal Gold Medal SMKs and Black Hills that are classic match winning loads.

if i'm not mistaken, litz states a 5 SD is what you need to hold the x ring in F class. if you have a 10 SD, you're going to need bigger targets.
also, does anybody shoot FGM SMK anymore? sure they were the shizznazizzle 15 years ago. i haven't seen anyone win a major match with them lately.

Unfortunately collecting dope is not a thread. I wouldn't even start that thread because I can't trust the crowd on here to even agree that 300y isnt long range. pssh, regular rifle qual for the m16/m4 is 500m. Thats not long range either.
As far as computers go. Getting close enough and correcting fire is simply just plinking around and turning a turret until you get on target, for that moment of that day. That doesn't negate the short range work up for more serious shooting. 100y zero. check tracking/run a tall target test. Get a correction factor if needed. I mean with like a 2% error in tracking, that would put you at 1.02 mils per rev. Dial in 10 mils for said drop...your not actually at 10 mils now are you. We are at 10.2. If your just plinking the target then its not anything youre going to notice, but if you are 2/10 of a mil off, that is about 7.2 inches off target at 1000y. Chrono. Use ballistic software, get solution for 400y. Shoot a group at a three inch square. Probably fail. Go to calculator tune it. Try again. Get closer. Move to 600y same thing, then 500y. Then 10in at least at 1000y. Same thing. Or some variation of this. It can be a painful amount of work and might not be needed to physically shoot at distance, but 1000y isnt that far. Its not as people imagine it to be. Its simply the beginning for shooting further out. Its when spin drift starts to be noticeable but not sever. Its when the legendary coriolus becomes noticeable...ish..sort of. It's when complex wind environments will become crucial to read. No minute of man at that distance.
i've read this like 3 times and i can't even figure out what you're trying to say.
look, it's this simple: use a good scope/rifle/ammo. get a good 100 yard zero. use a magnetospeed or lab radar to find your velocity. use a good calculator (shooter, AB, etc) and input the rifle characteristics correctly. the data you get out should reliably track the path of the bullet within a tenth or two out to the transonic zone. the tenth or two variation will be due to averaging of velocity data. if you input more BC for various velocities, it will be more accurate across the whole trajectory. i don't know what tuning you're talking about. and ignore spin drift and coriolus.


second, it is slightly more difficult to shoot a 308 win at distance than a 6.5/6mm and I am wanting to learn the art of precision rifle shooting. I want to hunt with this rifle as well, and a 308win has more energy at hunting ranges, <500yds, more like 300 and in. finally, I expect 5,000+ rounds of barrel life out of my 308win.

with ample barrel life and plentiful load data, I do not worry about round counts. compare that to a 6mm creedmore, 1200rds and you are usually done for competitions.

no, it is a lot more difficult to shoot a 308 at distance than a 6/6.5. just look at any wez analysis. your hit probability is way lower.

it cracks me up that in the handgun forums everybody understands shot placement trumps energy. a well placed 9mm is way more effective than a wild 45acp. but for some reason, people seem to forget that when it comes to rifles.
i'd encourage you to use a ballistic calculator and model your wind correction error.

168g sierra at 2650 fps is 27" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind
140g berger at 2800 fps is 15" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind (almost half as much)

another way to look at that is 2.7" vs 1.5" of drift for every MPH you are wrong on the wind call.

if it's a 11 mph wind and you called it at an 8 , that's 8.1" vs 4.5"

according to chuck hawks, a large sized deer is 10-12" vital zone. if you aimed perfectly at the center but were 3mph off on your wind call, with a 308, you'd be 2.1" out of the vital zone. if you took that shot with a 6.5cm you'd be 1.5" inside the vital zone.
 
168g sierra at 2650 fps is 27" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind
140g berger at 2800 fps is 15" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind (almost half as much)

another way to look at that is 2.7" vs 1.5" of drift for every MPH you are wrong on the wind call.

That in and of itself seems like a hindrance to learning as it would mask error in the shooters wind "call".

I think that's why he wrote LEARNING vs learning or leaving the word out of the sentence all together.
 
that is not true at all. the advantage to shooting a 6 or 6.5mm over a 308 for learning is less recoil
1. very few people can pick up their trace with a 308 even with a brake because of recoil and because the rainbow trajectory leaves the scope FOV
2. you need a lot of repetitions and more recoil is always worse. new 308 shooters will start flinching a long time before 6mm shooters.



yes, it is precisely opposite. recreational shooters can do anything they want and who really cares? but people shooting something important should choose the best tool for the job and 308 hasn't been that for a decade. it's not even the most well rounded. it's old and better things have come along, and professionals are switching.



if i'm not mistaken, litz states a 5 SD is what you need to hold the x ring in F class. if you have a 10 SD, you're going to need bigger targets.
also, does anybody shoot FGM SMK anymore? sure they were the shizznazizzle 15 years ago. i haven't seen anyone win a major match with them lately.


i've read this like 3 times and i can't even figure out what you're trying to say.
look, it's this simple: use a good scope/rifle/ammo. get a good 100 yard zero. use a magnetospeed or lab radar to find your velocity. use a good calculator (shooter, AB, etc) and input the rifle characteristics correctly. the data you get out should reliably track the path of the bullet within a tenth or two out to the transonic zone. the tenth or two variation will be due to averaging of velocity data. if you input more BC for various velocities, it will be more accurate across the whole trajectory. i don't know what tuning you're talking about. and ignore spin drift and coriolus.




no, it is a lot more difficult to shoot a 308 at distance than a 6/6.5. just look at any wez analysis. your hit probability is way lower.

it cracks me up that in the handgun forums everybody understands shot placement trumps energy. a well placed 9mm is way more effective than a wild 45acp. but for some reason, people seem to forget that when it comes to rifles.
i'd encourage you to use a ballistic calculator and model your wind correction error.

168g sierra at 2650 fps is 27" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind
140g berger at 2800 fps is 15" of wind drift at 500 with a 10mph wind (almost half as much)

another way to look at that is 2.7" vs 1.5" of drift for every MPH you are wrong on the wind call.

if it's a 11 mph wind and you called it at an 8 , that's 8.1" vs 4.5"

according to chuck hawks, a large sized deer is 10-12" vital zone. if you aimed perfectly at the center but were 3mph off on your wind call, with a 308, you'd be 2.1" out of the vital zone. if you took that shot with a 6.5cm you'd be 1.5" inside the vital zone.
At 1000y sure ignore spin drift and coriolus. Put when you shoot further and the target is small not do not ignore. I'm sure im not best explainer without giving training aids and examples and charts. However my explaining skills are not whats in question. Its that there is a pletra of people on here who are "shooting long range" when nothing has been defined. Who's techniques are slightly questionable. I've never seen a chrono get the exact data to line up ever. Before software, everything was written down anyways. For a newbie, I THINK that that is the way to go to learn the why's of the science but thats neither here nor there. The BC multi bc thing like sierra does is A way to do that, but over all a g7 bc should follow the behavior of the bullet past the transonic, if using a g1 then just be aware of it. You dont know what tuning im talking about because nobody here knows much of how to get first round impacts at extreme distance. IT SOUNDS like you all are just shooting around the target until you hit it. "Close enough" is what im getting from it. Now if some of you say, i just like to go to the range, and plink at long range...(to me and a lot of people in the E/LR community, would agree that long range being 600-1000y is ELR being beyond that) and see if I hit said gong, then sure, but just because you have shot at long range doesn make anyone KNOW anything, or determine how experienced or how good they are. If people are getting heated over caliber choice and what works best, then sounds like theres some experience trying to be invoked, and it doesnt seem to be much. I dont agree with varminter or whatever is his screen name on a lot of things, but at least he knows the science behind a lot of this. As a sniper, we would do it one way. The civilian competitive world of long range, to extreme long range shooting, they get dope in another way, with more science, and more information, and different equipment, for a different purpose. For hunting there is a line between the two. You are not limited to a .308, a .300 wim mag, a .338 lm or a .50 bmg. You are not generally limited to particular loads. For precision long range, you are shooting a small target a long range.

With that I suggest if you want to better know what im talking about, pick up applied ballistics the book. I'm not making up correction factors, tall targets test. Im not making up the issues with scope tracking error, or its effects. What to talk SD'S? Yeah it messes up hit probability the further out you go. For the people talking about long range for this caliber is 300y. Cartridge dynamics is a big deal. Why do you think competitors at KO2M use wildcats like the .375 lethal or brians .338 edge? annnnd these cartridges are did better than the competitors using the .50 bmg and the .416 cheytac. Having the right equipment for the right shooter. You guys what to talk to mitchell from KO2M about the rifle design and shooting that far? Go on long range hunter forum, have a chat. He's on there. He'll tell all about it.

Want to talk to Frank from sniperhide? Go on there look him up. He's a dick, but he's rarely incorrect when it comes to precision long range shooting. He will break down to the science of how a true a ballistic program, and how the computer only knows what you put into it. That it does not account for human error (in general) in harmonics or SD shifts from shooting positions, yes... shooting positions...that will effect your consistency at range. These are not new things. They are just publicly available for people here to look into. If any of this is confusing to anyone, and if over simplified...im telling you, you have no idea, and should consider a REAL long range shooting class. Want to be a sniper, you will learn data books. You will learn how to use a master dope chart and how to use formulas to adjust dope. You will learn how to use a computer. IT WILL NOT be just putting in stuff and getting close enough. You will go to mountain warfare and will learn slope dope, and cosigns. You can learn about mildots, and the various range estimation techniques. As a civilian, a mildot master can work wonders if you are math deficient. You will learn and use correction of fire using the reticle either way. You will learn the importance of atmospherics. As a civilian, and military you should know that the the fm23-10 is WRONG about humidity effects. That on opposite sides of the spectrum is about .002 mil difference, which isn't even measurable at 1000y really....depending on real world results.

If this is all news to you...you don't shoot long range. You at targets at long range...not the same thing. Its a shooting discipline. Just because i go to the range and shoot a few failure to stop drills doesn't mean i have combat training....or that im a proficient shooter.

If you want the full effect of spin drift and wind pull to LEARN how to adjust for it, where it has obvious and extreme effects AND have plenty online and or published data for go for a .308. You haven't mastered it until you are shooting it past its transonic barrier.
If you are going for effect, or you want to HIT a long range target....not learn, but actually hit your target...magnums are the tool for the job. Why the 6.5 creed then? It has its place. For those that require a high bc bullet, that can be mag length and has a flatter trajectory. Forsure. It's just a tool for the user that needs one. PRS, is a great example. Not limited to just that, you can do whatever you want, and use it for whatever you want...it has its place...learning it probably on the lower end of that spectrum.

If this doesn't sound like you, maybe you are just a person that shoots at targets at long range...not a long range shooter. Maybe your not as interested as you thought you were. Jerry Miculek shot a target at long range with an upside how 1911 at 1000y. He's a world class...probably THE best competitive shooter in the WORLD...for what he does..but he's not REALLY a long range shooter. Brian Litz is a world class long range shooter. Even the dude Rex Tibor that the OP was talking about was a sniper, and a science engineer whiz. David Tubb. another guy to look into.

There is so much information to type its ridiculous. to go into detail would be extreme.
 
The BC multi bc thing like sierra does is A way to do that, but over all a g7 bc should follow the behavior of the bullet past the transonic, if using a g1 then just be aware of it..
Add to this, I just remember what i was thinking of, is there will be variance related to the bullets form factor. Does the g7 high bc bullet have a high bc because it is a low drag light bullet or is it heavy and suffer during velocity loss...but still have low drag. It needs to line up with your computer.There some internal ballistics to be concerned about that can vary this, AS WELL as external performance. However determining the form factor is another numeric value added to determine this based on bullet. Not necessary? Well, im not the one that is close...a 1 or 2/10s....
and again, as a stepping stone to ELR...especially if you are using AB software...other's like coldbore, and patagonia which has been something i experimented with in an official capacity, uses a drag coefficient, as well as bullet coefficient and a lots for cold barrel shots by being able to account for a POI offset. Cold barrel, usually the shot that matters is a thing, and there can be poi shifts especially if you zero'd correctly. My apply good fundamentals, and proper measurement, and apply that to your turrets and setting the zero. Patagonia pretty much uses a digital format to input dope. However, you can probably get the same thing without the advanced features just using JBM trajectory. The problem people have is, NOT HAVING REAL WORLD DATA and NOT collecting dope that can be applied to even make cards or a legit online trajectory. TRUE then VERIFY. True, THEN VERIFY.
 
My take is this. Shoot what works well for you (function, cost, enjoyment, etc.). If .308win works well for you, Great. If .308win mag works well for you, Great. If 6.5 cm, G, Swiss, or some wildcat works well for you, Great.

There is no reason to tell people to stop using anything...if as the OP stipulated, the reason for shooting is ENJOYMENT!
 
it cracks me up that in the handgun forums everybody understands shot placement trumps energy. a well placed 9mm is way more effective than a wild 45acp

Interesting you would use a "hunting" reference to make your point on a target shooting thread.

Apples and oranges IMO.
 
I've never seen a chrono get the exact data to line up ever.
well, then you've never shot a match recently, because EVERYONE uses this method. mine always lines up.
you should consider taking a class.

You dont know what tuning im talking about because nobody here knows much of how to get first round impacts at extreme distance. IT SOUNDS like you all are just shooting around the target until you hit it. "Close enough" is what im getting from it. Now if some of you say, i just like to go to the range, and plink at long range...(to me and a lot of people in the E/LR community, would agree that long range being 600-1000y is ELR being beyond that) and see if I hit said gong, then sure, but just because you have shot at long range doesn make anyone KNOW anything, or determine how experienced or how good they are.
here's a link to my review of the PRS ELR match in Wyoming where I came in 7th place using a 6.5x47 Lapua (slower than a creedmoor) where everyone else in the top ten was shooting magnums like 300norma and 300winmag. look at the list of targets (45 of them past 1200 yards), sizes and distances i provided to get a feel for a real practical ELR competition (as opposed to Ko2M). https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...warning-really-big-pics.808439/#post-10331271

As a sniper, we would do it one way.
sure, a decade ago. they're changing. so should you.

Want to talk to Frank from sniperhide? Go on there look him up. He's a dick,
i've met him many times. took 5th place out of 200+ at the last sniper hide cup i shot in. humorously, i'd suggest YOU talk to him and he'll probably tell you to ignore spin drift and coriolis.

If any of this is confusing to anyone, and if over simplified...im telling you, you have no idea, and should consider a REAL long range shooting class.
yeah? what instructor have you taken classes from and would recommend?

Want to be a sniper, you will learn data books. You will learn how to use a master dope chart and how to use formulas to adjust dope.
i've done all that. did it for a very long time. nobody does it like that anymore.

As a civilian, a mildot master can work wonders if you are math deficient.
again, nobody uses these anymore.

If this doesn't sound like you, maybe you are just a person that shoots at targets at long range...not a long range shooter. Maybe your not as interested as you thought you were.
last year i shot 10 PRS matches and had 8 top 15% finishes, including the ELR match. You don't do that without getting a very high percentage of first round hits at long range.

David Tubb. another guy to look into.
David and I tied at the heatstroke open PRS match in oklahoma last year. care to ask him if he is using a data book? hahahaha

bottom line, you use the 1980s method, i'll do it the modern way, and i'm going to beat you every single time.
 
the 308 is a main stream very popular caliber used just about everywhere plus its a proven caliber, this thread reminds me of another one on this website 9 vs 40 vs 45 , and there is noway the 308 is unpopular , the way this thread is going we should add a James Yeager video too...........
If I was a newbie shooter after reading this I would get a slingshot so far off topic ??
 
sure 308 is popular. the whole point of this thread is, the only reason it's popular is because it's popular. there are better cartridges for any specific thing you want to do, and better all-purpose cartridges. so it will be getting less popular, which is a good thing.
 
That in and of itself seems like a hindrance to learning as it would mask error in the shooters wind "call".

I think that's why he wrote LEARNING vs learning or leaving the word out of the sentence all together.

you can't read the wind to a higher degree of precision than your group size. if i'm holding 1 MOA at 500 yards then i just can't tell whether a shot being 3" off call was due to wind or my hold/group size. to some extent, a caliber that sucks so bad in the wind like a 308, will allow me to call winds a little more precisely.

however, the trade off is extra recoil and more difficult to read trace.

net, a shooter learning on a 308 will learn slower than a shooter learning on a cheater caliber.
 
Cold barrel, usually the shot that matters is a thing, and there can be poi shifts especially if you zero'd correctly.
while your talking to frank, ask him about cold bore shots. hahaha

My take is this. Shoot what works well for you (function, cost, enjoyment, etc.). If .308win works well for you, Great. If .308win mag works well for you, Great. If 6.5 cm, G, Swiss, or some wildcat works well for you, Great.

There is no reason to tell people to stop using anything...if as the OP stipulated, the reason for shooting is ENJOYMENT!
some of us don't shoot just for enjoyment. some of us shoot to develop a capability and to maximize the effectiveness.

and those of us who do shoot for enjoyment, tend to enjoy hitting targets a lot more than missing them. so helping people hit more targets with good advice instead of old and busted advice is a good thing. you don't have to listen to good advice. feel free to keep shooting 308win. it won't hurt my feelings. but if new shooters read this thread, i don't want them to get bad advice and think that 308 is the best place to start.
 
edited,

I wasn't adding to the conversation.

I have much to learn and I am enjoying my current choice of a 308. I believe there are better options that would help me hit steel or paper with better groups or with fewer challenges regarding recoil, vapor trail, wind calls, etc,

I do not know what is "best" but I know what is working for me.
 
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Agreed. And I think taliv's argument--that the .308 has been displaced as "top dog"--is exactly right. I have nowhere near the experience he does. I took some classes at Storm Mountain using a .308. I'd have done better with the .260 I'm shooting today.

For the record, I still have and shoot a couple of .308s. Like 'em. But I'll give them up before I give up my .260s.
 
if i'm not mistaken, litz states a 5 SD is what you need to hold the x ring in F class. if you have a 10 SD, you're going to need bigger targets.
also, does anybody shoot FGM SMK anymore? sure they were the shizznazizzle 15 years ago. i haven't seen anyone win a major match with them lately.

There are several bullets and calibers popular in 1000 yards in open F-class that will inherently deliver inside the 5 inches with spreads still in the double digits.

But not everything is about f-class, xrings, known distances and/or controlled environments.

In other disciplines only service cartridges are allowed and reloads are not allowed so nobody has a significant caliber advantage.
In these matches federal gold medal and black hills are classics that are effectively used as high quality service ammunition
no matter what packaging. The marksmanship skills are tested to the full extent including ranging and wind reading w/o assistance of flags or electronics
and pretty much simulating conditions one might find in real life situation using core skills like long range hunting and military.


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Agreed. And I think taliv's argument--that the .308 has been displaced as "top dog"--is exactly right. I have nowhere near the experience he does. I took some classes at Storm Mountain using a .308. I'd have done better with the .260 I'm shooting today.

For the record, I still have and shoot a couple of .308s. Like 'em. But I'll give them up before I give up my .260s.

I have an FN SPR that I've learned a lot from by sending 6,000+ hand loaded .308 rounds though it. I will send it to Short Action Customs soon for a re-barrel and I'm leaning toward .260 rem

Like most of these arguments, instead of "X > Y", the better solution is always "X + Y", or "both"

That doesn't mean I regret having my first custom rig chambered in .308. Consider the decades of collective knowledge that exists on the .308, the people who still compete with it, know how to develop accurate loads for it and build accurate rifles chambered to shoot it. It's one of the reasons someone like me who's always learning gravitates to it and why I don't think it's wrong to recommend it to someone who's starting out.

Which one is "top dog"? That sounds like it should be a different thread.
 
My first custom rig was a .308, too. Sold it to buy my .260. I just think it's interesting that we live at a time when laser range finders, portable ballistic calculators, pressure sensors (altimeters) built into cell phones, arguably better scopes, and new designed-for-purpose cartridges are revolutionizing (maybe over stated) long range shooting. It's just a cool time to be a shooter!
 
My first custom rig was a .308, too. Sold it to buy my .260. I just think it's interesting that we live at a time when laser range finders, portable ballistic calculators, pressure sensors (altimeters) built into cell phones, arguably better scopes, and new designed-for-purpose cartridges are revolutionizing (maybe over stated) long range shooting. It's just a cool time to be a shooter!

Amen......and an abundance of reloading supplies. Let us hope it stays that way
 
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