shotguns for home defense pros & cons

Creature said:

The effect of "show of force" against a determined foe is nil. Relying on that effect will not get you the results you desire.

As for hit probability, have you considered that hit probability can also work against you? Especially in relation to civilian use of 00 Buck and the fact that a civilian is responsible for every projectile (and resultant hits they score) that is sent down range. Care to take a shot against a hostage taker who is standing behind your family member at 10 yards with your shotgun? I wouldn't consider taking that shot with a shotgun loaded with anything other than a slug. But I might if I had an AR15.

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I prefer to frame my decisions according to what is likely. A hostage rescue shot with overlapping targets is not likely for anyone, surely not likely for me. I'm not a SWAT cop.

Some trainers will show you a way to take that shot, at very short range, using buckshot. You shade the pattern toward the side away from the hostage and hope for the best. The idea is to shoot the bad guy with a partial pattern. It does not appear to be a very good idea to me, but they make it work on paper targets.

Occasionally, stray pellets of buckshot have created downrange collateral damage and casualties. But when you consider how many single bullets fired in anger miss their targets entirely, and go sailing on their merry way, that seems mainly a matter of being cautious about Rule Four no matter what gun you're shooting. Not too long ago, New York's finest shot a pair of bystanders with pistol fire in the general direction of a bad guy. They missed the bad guy.

Kendal Black said:

I prefer to frame my decisions according to what is likely. A hostage rescue shot with overlapping targets is not likely for anyone, surely not likely for me. I'm not a SWAT cop.

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So you live alone?

Kendal Black said:

Some trainers will show you a way to take that shot, at very short range, using buckshot. You shade the pattern toward the side away from the hostage and hope for the best.

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And with that, I take it you're pretty much done with this discussion.

I do not endorse hostage rescue shots with buckshot, but it is a thing. I was surprised as you are.

GEM said:

Also, intimidation - TV horsecrap also. Police might face a nut in the street and make a show of force against someone who is acting out. In your house, you don't want to be making a show of it. If you want to challenge the person, you'd better be behind some kind of cover. Standing there and posing - you get shot down. If you are behind cover:

"Yoohoo - I have a shotgun, Go away, you bad man". Silly now. Best to say: I have a gun, the police are called.

A shotgun is a fine weapon to fight with, if you know its pros and cons. It's not a COS play accouterment.

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I certainly do not think grandstanding is a good idea. I have said for...well, decades now...that your best chance is to defend yourself in an ensconced defender status. Pretty much what you said.

Still, we are not invisible, few home defenses go down as textbook ambushes of the felon, and how we choose to arm ourselves can make an impression. To the extent that your choice of weapon can have a useful psychological effect on the other guy, I think the shotgun makes a pretty good statement.

It has that effect because the felon--if he even knows one gun from another--will recognize the shotgun as very seriously jeopardizing his plans for retirement. We hear again and again that the bad guy ran away when he saw that the homeowner was armed and in a mood to resist. The sight of a shotgun will perhaps put an extra spring in his step.

Kendal Black said:

I do not endorse hostage rescue shots with buckshot, but it is a thing.

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So we can add that to the "another reason why a shotgun is a less than desirable choice for civilian home defense" column?

Kendal Black said:

how we choose to arm ourselves can make an impression. To the extent that your choice of weapon can have a useful psychological effect on the other guy, I think the shotgun makes a pretty good statement

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Seriously, you need to put that horse to pasture. Psychological effect of a shotgun can not be a consideration in terms of home defense. Why? Because it all depends on the audience doesn't it? If what you say were the case, then I believe that same guy will be equally as intimidated if he sees you standing there with an AR-15 pointed at him as he would be if it were a shotgun....possibly even more so by the AR-15! Perhaps if you focused on the objective instead of the completely subjective, this discussion could actually progress instead of getting stuck in the weeds.

Shotguns are a great choice for HD whether you're a pro or noob. Simple to operate, just like a revolver. A pump shotgun will also not malfunction as long as you know how to use it.

Recoil and weight is the only con I can think of. Both are easy to work around if you buy the right kind of gun/ammo.

kudu said:

Sam put it succinctly and right on topic. If you are going to hunker down and defend, most of the cons go away, if you are going proactive and doing a house sweep and going hunting then you might be at a disadvantage.

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As you would be with an AR. And building clearing be yourself is never a good idea, even if you have door kicking cred. They call it a Building Clearing Team for a reason.

As for weapon of choice to hunker down with, Pistol, shotgun and AR rifle all can be used well, but must be trained with. I have a bit of training with all three; the pistol is handiest, within hands' reach, the shot gun is 2 steps away. I don't currently have an AR, it would be at about 2 steps away if I did.

Creature said:

So we can add that to the "another reason why a shotgun is a less than desirable choice for civilian home defense" column?



Seriously, you need to put that horse to pasture. Psychological effect of a shotgun can not be a consideration in terms of home defense. Why? Because it all depends on the audience doesn't it? If what you say were the case, then I believe that same guy will be equally as intimidated if he sees you standing there with an AR-15 pointed at him as he would be if it were a shotgun....possibly even more so by the AR-15! Perhaps if you focused on the objective instead of the completely subjective, this discussion could actually progress instead of getting stuck in the weeds.

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I think probably a .70 cal shotgun is slightly more intimidating than an AR ... but perhaps it depends on the person and an AR would still be intimidating. If you point your AR at someone and they call your bluff, I guess they will have to see how it feels to be hit with a soft point at 2500fps Seems like a very unhealthy experience.

Stoeger Coach Gun with 2.75 inch 00. Improved and Modified chokes although I can never remember which barrel is which, not that it matters much. Shell holder attached to the stock. Most people do not like staring at the business end of twin tubes. I have never discharged them simultaneously and hopefully never will. That is an option. More capacity is a good thing but it is what I have other than a Mossberg Slugster which is a little unwieldy in a tight situation. In the pump world, the old Model 97 would be my first choice as it is the one I have had the most experience with.

justice06rr said:

Simple to operate, just like a revolver. A pump shotgun will also not malfunction as long as you know how to use it.

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I have seen more than a few people forget how or completely screw up working a pump shotgun while under moderate stress. I have also seen pump shotguns turn into jam-o-matics when using cheap ammo...and they were a bear to clear. Anecdotal for sure. But an AR15 is not as difficult to operate as you would have us to believe. Even my 10 year old daughter prefers an AR over a 410 shotgun.

Interesting idea that seeing the shotgun will be more intimidating that an AR for instance. Are you going to wait to see if that happens if you are out in the open so they can see the gun? Yoo-hoo look at me here!

If they are armed, you ain't on the American Top Model of Gunslingers runway.

Here's a past FOF class. The good guy has his gun pointed at the bad guy. The bad guy has his gun in his belt. The good guy is talking - Get on the ground, do a dance, make blintzes, call your mother, do you have clean underwear?

The bad guy (sims) draws and shoots him repeatedly. So want to rethink being where the BG can see you clearly and identify the gun

I have an idea. Post signs and photos of your shotgun around the house, with pictures of you posing with it.

Guns are for fighting, not for showing off. I also ask again, how well do your run each in simulated house usages? Have you tried it?

In decades past, the pump or to a lesser extent semi auto shotgun was considered the "gold standard" for a defensive long gun.

These days times have changed, and most LEOs and industry experts have gone to the AR-15 as the superior weapons system platform. I know of few LEO agencies still buying new shotguns. The tactical carbine has supplanted it as it is simply a much more effective and flexible option.

Now that isn't to say they are useless for defense, far from it. But I would recommend a quality AR with lightweight JHP 55 grain ammo as a home defense gun for a wide variety of reasons, almost too numerous to list.

Here's an interesting story for the show and tell squad, that I just remembered. I was in Cabela's just browsing at the gun counter. A guy comes in to buy a pump gun. He tells the clerk. I want a pump gun because if you rack it, the bad guy will just run away. The clerk nods. Then the dude says I also want to buy some blanks in case the racking doesn't scare the guy away. The clerks: Oh, I can also sell you some rubber buckshot so you won't kill him and it will scare him.

At that point, I intervene and say: Oh NO! You should blah, blah, blah.

They both gave me the dirtiest looks. I fled in terror to the stuffed animals. Learned not to give advice unless asked.

kudu said:

As a friend of mine who is a deputy sheriff and who also teaches firearm tactics to his department told me the only gun that scares the sheet out of him is the shotgun if he had to face one. He has seen the destructive power of one shot out of a shotgun and what it can do.

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Your friend is right. I have too. Only I was on the wrong end of one when my classroom was shot up.

Shotguns make a MASSIVE MESS. The noise is insane and they blow apart solid wood doors like you wouldn't believe.

Since the shooting, I've reevaluated my self defense options.

IMHO the best home defense is more vehicles then people so you always have one in the drive. A good dog, proper landscaping and lighting. Lights on timers or computer control. And one of the video doorbells.

Now all of that should greatly reduce the odds of someone breaking into your home as most thieves will avoid a home with a dog, and with things like random cars in the drive.

So, that means if someone is breaking in they're a huge danger.

We are at the town line on a nice size piece of property. So we get deer, skunks, and other things coming up to the house. Normally the barks are clear it's an animal. When our dog barks like it may be a person, I usually grab a pistol. A pistol is my choice for checking around the house. Now if I heard glass break or a door kicked in, I'd grab an AR.

While I like the shotgun it would be the last thing I'd use in my house given the choice. Of course I say that, but the situation will dictate.

Now if I only had one gun, I'd grab whatever it is. A pistol is best for its size. The shotgun, for its ability to use such a wide range of ammo. And an AR for the number of rounds and sheer number of folks who know them inside and out.

kudu said:

As a friend of mine who is a deputy sheriff and who also teaches firearm tactics to his department told me the only gun that scares the sheet out of him is the shotgun if he had to face one. He has seen the destructive power of one shot out of a shotgun and what it can do. Is it the best in all situations, by no means, but is it the best for any one individuals situation, very possibly.

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I don't think I've ever mentioned it on the forum before but I think the gun I'd least like to be facing in a confrontation would be someone's 30-06 loaded up with 180gr soft points. I have seen what a big bore hunting rifle does to animals and I want no part of it. If a shotgun is ominous then a powerful rifle is flat out terrifying. It's pretty unlikely that you'd survive being hit COM by a full power .30 cal rifle.

Phaedrus/69 facing the wrong end of any gun is terrifying. Believe me, when it's happening thought isn't about how bad it'll harm you, it's how do I get out of this mess. And I don't want to die today.

Sorry, but until you've been there/done that, comments talking about stopping power, wound channels etc or which gun is better or worse are just Internet BS. So while I'll agree with you in that being shot by a small caliber gun gives you a better chance of surviving, or conversely that a high caliber rifle will cause massive damage, in real life it doesn't matter as any gun can kill or permenantly injure with the right shot placement so they're all terrifying.

Some prefer to keep a round chambered which in pump/autos means hammer is cocked. Not a good idea as springs are stressed to their max and left for long periods MANY will take a "set" which means when you pull the trigger after a few months/years storage you may will hear a faint click rather than have your ears ringing a bit.


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ect-how-well-your-ammunition-performs.826478/

We had a spring engineer at Picatinny Arsenal when I was there and I specifically asked him about spring compression in long term applications. His response was classic which was along these lines:
"A properly made spring should never take a set."
"Unless you have the means to determine if it has taken a set the only way to determine it has is leave it compressed for a couple years and disassemble the weapon and measure the free length of the spring."

At Aberdeen we disassembled every weapon coming in for test. In the case of compression springs we measured the free length of spring at zero and every 1200 rounds.
In the case of rotational springs (870, ARs etc) the springs are removed and photographed in such a way that if the ends of the springs move we knew how much they moved and confirmed they had attained a different position i.e. lost energy potential.

Just remembered a ground shaking event. We got in a new handgun design come in to evaluate and the procedure at FLETC was to store autos with slides to the rear and muzzle slid over on aluminum pin on a rack and placed the the security area when not in use. Each rack held 10 guns and you could tell in an instant how many were in a certain section.

We had shot them like 500 rounds on a Friday, they were cleaned and stored as indicated above and on Monday morning I pulled them out to continue testing.
NOT ONE OF THEM HAD ENOUGH ENERGY TO STRIP A ROUND FROM THE MAGAZINE AND LOCK THE SLIDE IN BATTERY! ! !

I realized immediately what had occurred and called the factory rep within minutes and warned him in the strongest terms that he had better call their engineering folks quick and get them on this as this was going to be a marketing disaster for the firm if the slide spring problem was not corrected quickly. I have not been aware of that happening with that design since.

The moral of what springs can't do for you can get you killed.

I think it was Bill Jordan (USBP Ret) and author had a quote along the lines of," no one has ever been killed as the result of a loud noise" the intent being if you don't hit them they don't get impressed. I would add to that "No one has ever been killed as a result of a faint click noise."

As someone stated racking a pump gun may or may not intimidate anyone as firearms ignorance is rampant among the public these days and they may not know what caused the mechanical noise they just heard.

I have two 870s, both with 00 and both with empty chambers, hammers down. One in bedroom and one in living area.

Additionally I have seen FEDERAL SPECIAL AGENTS pick up a revolver/automatic from a box full and pull the triggers without clearing it multiple times. Forrest Gump's mother had a saying for such.

I picked up a 9MM auto from a box full (just piled in like corn) and racked the slide to check it and a loaded round popped out. Two guys were there checking them in and they saw the loaded round pop out on the floor and it shook them for sure. The magazine was empty.

Rifles and pistols of many makes and models have been stored in Arms Rooms racks with springs in all manners of compression without immediate failure as you describe. As a matter of fact in most firearms, there is a spring or two in compression no matter which manner it is stored. Can it this cause spring failure? Possibly. We didn't store the 1911's or M9's in the manner you describe. A friend of mine found an M1911 in a house he was renovating, tucked behind a dresser drawer. The newspaper it had been wrapped in ad been soaked in oil when it was put there, mostly long gone when he found it. The date on the newspaper was 1925, magazine was fully chamber empty. He took it out to the woods and fired all seven rounds without a hitch. He did oil it after that, and fired a couple boxes through it, with that same magazine, in the next couple months, until he sold it to collector.

Hummer70 said:

I picked up a 9MM auto from a box full (just piled in like corn) and racked the slide to check it and a loaded round popped out. Two guys were there checking them in and they saw the loaded round pop out on the floor and it shook them for sure. The magazine was empty.

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When I smithed at a gun shop, we charged $50 if you brought a gun in with a live round in the chamber, unless it was a malfunction that kept it in there. Then it was $25, and ten if any round in feed device unless stuck in there through malfunction. We had people accuse us of loading it, even though we were in their full view the whole time, and the first thing we did was check the status.

Hummer70 said:

I think it was Bill Jordan (USBP Ret) and author had a quote along the lines of," no one has ever been killed as the result of a loud noise" the intent being if you don't hit them they don't get impressed. I would add to that "No one has ever been killed as a result of a faint click noise."

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I heard it as " The two loudest sounds in the world; A 'BANG' when you expect a 'click', and a 'CLICK' when you expect a 'BANG' "

Can you expound on which pistol you were testing for FLETC that the springs did that? Enquiring mind want to know!

Entropy, sent you a PM, email me


" The two loudest sounds in the world; A 'BANG' when you expect a 'click', and a 'CLICK' when you expect a 'BANG' "

Had not heard that one but obviously covers the whole ballgame.

SWAT, Shooting Illustrated and Lucky Gunner all have recently published cliche buster articles on shotgun for HD. Good read for those who just say: Shotgun 'enuf said - rack 'em, scare 'em and fill the room with lead.

Not putting down the gun as I shoot them and they are fine HD guns, just pointing out the hot air.

Hokie_PhD said:

Phaedrus/69 facing the wrong end of any gun is terrifying. Believe me, when it's happening thought isn't about how bad it'll harm you, it's how do I get out of this mess. And I don't want to die today.

Sorry, but until you've been there/done that, comments talking about stopping power, wound channels etc or which gun is better or worse are just Internet BS. So while I'll agree with you in that being shot by a small caliber gun gives you a better chance of surviving, or conversely that a high caliber rifle will cause massive damage, in real life it doesn't matter as any gun can kill or permenantly injure with the right shot placement so they're all terrifying.

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No doubt! I don't want to be staring down the barrel of any gun.

There is so much more useless information on the internet than useful. One persons reads something and starts quoting it and another quotes them etc.
Col Martin Fackler MD rolled in during late 80s and virtually destroyed all the urban legends about knock down power, wound ballistics etc and if it had not been for the Surgeon General of the Army setting him up with a Wound Ballistics Lab at the Presidio where he established and proved all his facts we would still be reading about knockdown power. But then again in Nam his operating room specialty was missile caused wounds and he told me he interviewed troops either before or after surgery and wanted to know what they were hit with. Of course many had received a "to whom it may concern" incoming but many did actually know and could estimate the range.

I saw one of his lectures at the Gainsville, Fla PD and the county medical examiner walked up to him after it was over and said in effect that he had just learned more about wound ballistics than he did in medical school. He had some great one liners such as , "Bullets make holes and they leak. Big holes leak faster. Two big holes leak twice as fast as one big hole".
The bottom line he told the cops, "If you shoot someone, retreat and get behind cover and watch them but do not approach them until help arrives." And to never approach someone right after they have been shot.

Hummer70 said:

[Fackler] interviewed troops either before or after surgery and wanted to know what they were hit with. Of course many had received a "to whom it may concern" incoming but many did actually know and could estimate the range.

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Aha.

So, while even the most idiotic of idiots would not stand in the open, waving his gun and singing,

"I got a shotgun,
And you ain't got one,"

at the same time, we do not operate in a cloak of invisibility. Often the adversary is aware, more so than we would like, of everything that is going on.

Any parody-type misrepresentations of my ideas to the contrary, and misrepresentation is scarcely an argument, having a big scary gun in your hands is surely no detriment! If you are otherwise acting sensibly in how you conduct your defense, it may be an advantage.

Let us recall how Gary Kleck and other criminologists have shown us that felons often flee when they see the homeowner holding a gun. That in itself should show that the bad guys enter a tense situation with some degree of tactical awareness. . .

(BTW it is no argument at all to say that an AR-15 is intimidating too; of course it is. And that's a good thing. That has no bearing on whether a shotgun is intimidating. If nothing else, holding either long gun makes it likely that the felon will realize sooner rather than later that you are armed. We hope he will flee at that point. We do not count on it, but it is the best outcome. I think the shotgun is the more impressive of the two guns, but what some random criminal thinks is up to him.)

If nothing else, holding either long gun makes it likely that the felon will realize sooner rather than later that you are armed.

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Do you have any evidence for this? BTW, I actually asked Dr. Kleck whether there was an evidence that gun type had any effect on the deterrence effect in a DGU. He said, he didn't know of any.

Having the opponent being able to see you with enough time to recognize the gun is enough time for the opponent to shoot you.

The reasonable action in your self-defense is not to pose. Be behind cover or concealment, if by chance they see you and are scared that is side effect.

In quite a few classes, we told the opponent we were armed from cover or concealment. Spent a lot of time practicing that.