Belted cases and accuracy for long range cartridges
- Thread starter jski
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Orcon
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People have been shooting belted cases with high precision for a looooooong time. Whoever told you that the belt is detrimental to accuracy and precision is speaking from their posterior. There is however, an argument to be made that the high recoil associated with belted magnums makes them hard for a novice to shoot accurately.
The belt on some magnums like the H&H is there to head space since the shoulders are either very tapered or nearly nonexistent. On the Weatherby cartridges it's a vestigial result of being based on the 300 or 375 H&H, later magnums featured a belt for the simple reason that the older magnums had them.
The belt on some magnums like the H&H is there to head space since the shoulders are either very tapered or nearly nonexistent. On the Weatherby cartridges it's a vestigial result of being based on the 300 or 375 H&H, later magnums featured a belt for the simple reason that the older magnums had them.
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That sums up it quite well. I shoot and reload for .300 Win Mag and .375 H&H Mag and both cartridges have proven to be capable of outstanding precision and accuracy. The key for me is neck sizing only and bumping the shoulder back .002" or so as needed combined with annealing the case mouth as needed. This results in good case life, superb accuracy and a happy shooter.
Tell Ken Brucklacher who set a 10-shot 1,000 yard heavy gun benchrest record of 3.137" with a .300 Weatherby Mag that belted magnums aren't capable of exceptional precision and accuracy.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/05/ken-brucklacher-sets-1000-yard-score-record-100-8x/
I always chuckle when I read this bit ....
Brucklacher used Norma .300 Weatherby brass “right out of the box”. You read that right… Ken set the record with brand new Norma brass with no case prep whatsoever. He didn’t touch the flash holes or primer pockets — in fact Ken didn’t even chamfer the case mouths. This was brand new brass, not fire-formed. According to Ken, he “just added a primer, filled the cases with powder, and shoved in a bullet.”
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That is an old link from 2009. The 10 shot 1000 yard record has been broken at least twice since then. With a beltless 300WSM and a beltless 6.5X47. There are other groups awaiting official measurement that could be as small as 2.6" for 10 shots at 1000 yards, all with beltless cartridges.
The belted magnums were good, but the belt no longer serves a purpose and does in fact make it harder to achieve the very best accuracy. Not that they can't be accurate, but it adds another element to consider when manufacturing rifles and ammunition. For most of us the difference is so minor we'll never know the difference. But I seriously doubt another accuracy record will ever be broken with a belted magnum.
The belted magnums were good, but the belt no longer serves a purpose and does in fact make it harder to achieve the very best accuracy. Not that they can't be accurate, but it adds another element to consider when manufacturing rifles and ammunition. For most of us the difference is so minor we'll never know the difference. But I seriously doubt another accuracy record will ever be broken with a belted magnum.
Who cares if the record is from 2009, it shows that belted magnums are capable of precision and accuracy that most of us can only dream about. Also, I'll take a 3.137" 100-8X group over a 2.687" 80-0X group any day of the week. As for belted magnums no longer winning any long range records, time will tell and I won't pretend to know more than I know. .30 cal cartridges still dominate 1,000 yard matches and the belted magnums are holding their own.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/
I know you're a proponent of the 300 WSM but go talk to Cabela's and see how far down the list sales of those are. .300 Win Mag is way up on the list, and is in the top three for hunting rifles. The 300 WSM is a great cartridge for benchrest but it isn't doing that well for hunting rifles.
I don't agree with you at all on this. Here are two 5-shot groups from a .300 Win Mag that I built and used in F-Class for a couple of years. The left group was shot after making a scope adjustment.
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Jim Watson
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When I see "long range" I usually interpret it as "Long Range" meaning scored targets farther than 600 yards. Those shooters are not shopping at Cabelas.
The .300 Win Mag has done great work, but has faded relative to (unbelted) smaller calibers that will not kick your eyeteeth loose in a weekend of competition.
The Extreme Long Range game is getting a lot of ink, usually about relatively small groups of very well equipped shooters. You need a big gun for 3/4 to a full mile. I don't think many of them use belted cases. I will ask my LR friend who has been recruited for a mile shooting group what he and they are using.
The .300 Win Mag has done great work, but has faded relative to (unbelted) smaller calibers that will not kick your eyeteeth loose in a weekend of competition.
The Extreme Long Range game is getting a lot of ink, usually about relatively small groups of very well equipped shooters. You need a big gun for 3/4 to a full mile. I don't think many of them use belted cases. I will ask my LR friend who has been recruited for a mile shooting group what he and they are using.
The extreme long range crowd are now using more exotic cartridges such as the .375 Lethal Magnum which makes my .338 Lapua Magnum look like a .22LR!! 
I've shot 88 round F-Class matches (prone with bipod) using a 18lb .300 Win Mag F-Class rifle and had no problem at all. I've had 100lb females shoot my AI AW chambered in .300 Win Mag and my other AI AW chambered in .338 Lapua Mag with no issues whatsoever, just big smiles all around. It's all down to the design of the rifle. Now if you're talking about an 8lb rifle, then the .300 Win Mag can get old. I did load development for my 9lb .375 H&H hunting rifle (rifle/scope/sling) in a few weekends shooting 50+ rounds prone and it beat me up for sure.
I've shot 88 round F-Class matches (prone with bipod) using a 18lb .300 Win Mag F-Class rifle and had no problem at all. I've had 100lb females shoot my AI AW chambered in .300 Win Mag and my other AI AW chambered in .338 Lapua Mag with no issues whatsoever, just big smiles all around. It's all down to the design of the rifle. Now if you're talking about an 8lb rifle, then the .300 Win Mag can get old. I did load development for my 9lb .375 H&H hunting rifle (rifle/scope/sling) in a few weekends shooting 50+ rounds prone and it beat me up for sure.
Jim Watson
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Tolerance varies. Mine is low.
F-T/R with a heavy .308 is about all the fun I like. Midrange F-T/R with a good stout .223 is even more fun.
I shoot a .40-65 at BPCR because it knocks down the rams better than my .38-55 and doesn't kick as much as a .45-70.
F-T/R with a heavy .308 is about all the fun I like. Midrange F-T/R with a good stout .223 is even more fun.
I shoot a .40-65 at BPCR because it knocks down the rams better than my .38-55 and doesn't kick as much as a .45-70.
Vern Humphrey
Member
By and large, there are cartridges that need belts -- like the .458 Winchester Magnum -- and cartridges that don't, like the .300 Winchester Magnum. For cartridges in the latter category, "best practice" is to ignore the belt when reloading and size the case so it headspaces on the shoulder, just like an unbelted case. This usually will result in a slight increase in accuracy, and will improve case life.
Orcon
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SEALs are mortal men, the Trident doesn't imbue any special powers of infallibility. My former congressman Ryan Zinke was a bona fide SEAL, also a bona fide moron. Any belted case with sufficient shoulder angle can headspace on that shoulder. The reason for the shift to the Lap and Norma isnt because of the lack of belt, it because they were designed from the ground up expressly for the purpose of target interdiction past 1200 meters. The reason they don't have belts is the designers recognized that they are superfluous and made the decision to omit them from the design.
Just been debating whether the .30-378 Wby Mag would make an excellent choice for Marine snipers. From what I've read, the cartridge is ideal for long range accuracy, 1500 yrds or greater.
The next issue would be 'overbore'. Is the 30-378 Wby Mag a barrel burner?
The next issue would be 'overbore'. Is the 30-378 Wby Mag a barrel burner?
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Vern Humphrey
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For snipers, who cares?
I remember when the Army adopted the 175mm Self-Propelled gun. You'd fly over a 175mm fire base and see a couple of spare barrels lying on the ground beside each gun. We can do the same for sniper rifles.
I remember when the Army adopted the 175mm Self-Propelled gun. You'd fly over a 175mm fire base and see a couple of spare barrels lying on the ground beside each gun. We can do the same for sniper rifles.
Jim Watson
Member
When I was active in F class, the Army team was shooting 6.5x284. So were a lot of other people. It was considered a 1200-1400 round barrel. The AMU replaced barrels at 850 so as to take no chances with erosion. Why not? They weren't paying for them.
Vern Humphrey
Member
If you figure out what it costs to kill a man in battle -- all the flying hours, bombs, ammo expended and so on -- then changing sniper barrels every 850 rounds or so is dirt cheap.
Reloading Belted Magnums (Questions & Answers)
Looks like Larry offers a resizing die specifically for belted cases.
Looks like Larry offers a resizing die specifically for belted cases.
someguy2800
Member
All the magnum cartridges that use belts do so only because there parent case had a belt. The newer bench rest cases don't use a belt because there parent case did not have a belt. It's simply easier to make a new case conforming to existing dimensions of brass that's already being made than to make something totally original. That's why a 6.5x47 or a 6.5 creedmore or a 6mm bench rest or a 6xc all use an 8mm Mauser bolt head. Does that mean that case head diameter is the ultimate end all be all for cartridge accuracy? No. It's just convenient. Same goes for the 300 win mag. It kept the belt because the brass forming dies for the 300 H&H already had it so it was just easier to keep it. It's existence is really irrelevant. If you formed a 300 win mag case with no belt it wouldn't make any difference and if you put a belt on a 6.5x47 or a 300 wsm or whatever it wouldn't make any difference.
Jim Watson
Member
Back when belts were cool, P.O. Ackley had a line of belted '06 head cartridges. The belt forming process was tedious and I doubt many people cared to put in the extra work. But if you wanted a belt, P.O. had the dies and method.
On the other hand, if you had a .416 Rigby before ammo was commercially loaded in the Colonies, you could turn the belt off of .378 or .460 Weatherby brass.
It has all been downhill since the Mauser box magazine killed off so many of the superior rimmed cartridges.
On the other hand, if you had a .416 Rigby before ammo was commercially loaded in the Colonies, you could turn the belt off of .378 or .460 Weatherby brass.
It has all been downhill since the Mauser box magazine killed off so many of the superior rimmed cartridges.
Orcon
Member
Careful, thems fightin words.
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